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Post by DaveyJoe on May 9, 2019 4:17:22 GMT
I've spent all week being fucking pissed about the Ghost scene. And I'm a cat person. How do you screw up so badly. Cogman or someone in the room must've been like "...I feel like literally everyone will hate this scene."
I can only imagine that D&D have never had pets because the execution was so fucking lacking in compassion. Not only in the context of the scene, but for viewers.
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Post by Damorian on May 9, 2019 8:26:19 GMT
Since season one with the real dogs, (which were great despite other budgetary constraints and a big reason why it's still my favourite season) the show's had absolutely no idea how to handle the direwolves as they grew larger. Either storywise, or in terms of clever innovative ways of cutting corners with the budget (see LOTR original trilogy.) It begs the question of whether they should've simply used old techniques like forced perspective etc. more. Foreground a large dog in a scene it invariably looks massive. Season 3 it was especially evident, the way they established zero bond between Robb and Greywind. While the whole "Robbwind" moment was shockingly staged from Arya's POV, it wasn't an emotional gutpunch in terms of Robb and his wolf's relationship at all. There was no relationship. In this case of the contentious Ghost scene, the fix is so damn easy as that stirring Maester theme by Ramin swells to crescendo as Jon leaves: 1.) You have Harrington kneel and smile to beckon Ghost near. 2.) Reaction shot C/U on Ghost's face with minimal CG needed (just the war wounds & red albino eyes.)
"Scooby snack?"3.) Cut to immediate reaction shot of Jon bowled over as a REAL large white dog (not a wild wolf, obvs.) they bring on set for peanuts bundles into him (pâté behind the ear trick or a trainer out of shot behind, luring him in.) 2-3 seconds tops. Viewer does not have time to process it's actually NOT a fantasy direwolf. 4.) C/U of Jon's face smiling into fur, stroking and interacting not with 1,000,0000 pixels and a headache for the CG budget but with the thick white coat of our real dog in close up (i.e: like the latter half of this sequence.)  "Two Scooby snack?"5.) Then you simply pull out on a C/U of a disappointed Ghost (or favour on his frowning eyes) as per shot #2, cocking his head in confusion as Jon reluctantly stands to leave. Very cheap, very easy. Audience do not feel cheated. This season is a weird one in terms of them repeatedly not pre-empting "audience blue balls" syndrome or what is 99% sure to be negative reaction (cutting away from the Stark sisters learning about Jon's heritage is another good example.) The Nymeria scene last season was an exception in so far as we needed to get a good look at her and how she'd changed. But why they tie themselves in knots and make their lives so difficult re: how they seem to think they HAVE to always have either a full wide body shot of a CG direwolf up against human actors, or nothing, I'll never know. It's what hoovers up all the cash in digitally manipulating shot wolf footage into scenes, and has ultimately made their interaction with the actors since Season 1 unsatisfying.  But there it is. If there's no Nymeria wolf pack rampaging some grace note of symbolism through the finale (unlikely) we farewell the direwolves with a damp squib. Let's cross everything for some creepy Tormund/Ghost epilogue beyond the wall in the finale to fix this fudged goodbye to Ghost and the WW plot in one fell swoop.  |
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Post by Basil on May 9, 2019 10:11:34 GMT
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Post by kingeomer on May 9, 2019 11:02:18 GMT
Damorian, your post is 100% spot on. The show never knew how to handle the direwolves. Even when they decided Bran would be the only the Stark to warg, there really was no connection shown between him and Summer. I get the whole budget thing and what not. The ideas you had laid out were good ones and surprises me that the show didn't try them out.
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Post by Enid on May 9, 2019 12:55:36 GMT
Cutting the number of episodes has come back to bite them in the ass, like it did in season 7. Specially because this season they have to dedicate two episodes to battles (even if episode 5 has more than pure battle it will require a huge chuck of the run time), which requires making everything about the plot and cutting scenes that may help the audience understand why the characters are behaving like they do, which have always been the best scenes in the show.
I understand D&D wanted to end GoT, but cutting the runtime was a huge, huge mistake.
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Post by Basil on May 9, 2019 14:27:38 GMT
OMG, yes!   |
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Post by TheMadQueen on May 9, 2019 23:44:26 GMT
on a rewatch, i kind of liked this episode and am coming to appreciate what they are trying to do. i think the standoff outside KL was really, really well done. yes it's stupid that they got blindsided by euron's fleet, but beyond that, i don't think this was poorly done. at all.
and no idgaf about ghost.
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Post by Singer of Death on May 10, 2019 0:32:29 GMT
Cutting the number of episodes has come back to bite them in the ass, like it did in season 7. Specially because this season they have to dedicate two episodes to battles (even if episode 5 has more than pure battle it will require a huge chuck of the run time), which requires making everything about the plot and cutting scenes that may help the audience understand why the characters are behaving like they do, which have always been the best scenes in the show. I understand D&D wanted to end GoT, but cutting the runtime was a huge, huge mistake. If it’s true that they want to end the show in season 7, then that would explain some of the incoherent pacing and especially half of the subplots in season 7 that feels forced and fillers. I know some people make the arguments that this doesn’t excuse D&D saying they could have utilize the extension of the show, but when they planned out the storyline for many years and then HBO forced them to extend one more season, I’m not surprised its gonna be a mess. |
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Post by Enid on May 10, 2019 8:22:33 GMT
Cutting the number of episodes has come back to bite them in the ass, like it did in season 7. Specially because this season they have to dedicate two episodes to battles (even if episode 5 has more than pure battle it will require a huge chuck of the run time), which requires making everything about the plot and cutting scenes that may help the audience understand why the characters are behaving like they do, which have always been the best scenes in the show. I understand D&D wanted to end GoT, but cutting the runtime was a huge, huge mistake. If it’s true that they want to end the show in season 7, then that would explain some of the incoherent pacing and especially half of the subplots in season 7 that feels forced and fillers. I know some people make the arguments that this doesn’t excuse D&D saying they could have utilize the extension of the show, but when they planned out the storyline for many years and then HBO forced them to extend one more season, I’m not surprised its gonna be a mess. I read an interview I can't find in which D&D said HBO was willing to give them all the resources they needed, that they were willing to give them more seasons, but they refused. Ive never heard of HBO forcing them to extend the story, they said 7 or 8 seasons since the show started. IDK, if they were really done with GoT and wanted to do something else they could have been replaced. But it's also true that they got the show started and it makes sense they want to be the ones to end it. They must have realized they were rushing things and the writing wasn't as good as other seasons, they are not idiots, I think they just cared more about reaching the end in the time they had set up for themselves. And that's a pity because the writing has suffered a lot due to the time constraints. |
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Post by kingeomer on May 10, 2019 11:12:09 GMT
I believe Benioff said in a post episode interview that Dany forgot about Euron's fleet.  |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 10, 2019 11:44:30 GMT
I believe Benioff said in a post episode interview that Dany forgot about Euron's fleet. I’ve only seen the screencaps because i find the pair of them insufferable to watch and the Behind the Episode stuff they say is almost always pure bullshit. But yeah, apparently so. Despite the fact they were brought upnspecifically during the war council and she was literally flying right above them, and had been flying for some time, giving more than ample time to see them. I guess the show is at least consistent with this idiocy though as the Iron Fleet also somehow surprised Asha last season. Probably some kind of invisibility booster |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 12:29:44 GMT
Can i just say, the thing that bothered me most is two things:
- Brienne's reaction to Jaime leaving
- Sansa's line about all the terrible things happening to her made her who she is...
I just feel like it was so out of character for Brienne to be so devastated over a man. Sure she's been in love with Jaime for seasons now, but she had abandoned and accepted any circumstance of them being together. Hence why even when he was in the room, trying to get her drunk she didn't even realise he was making a move. In fact Brienne is very insecure about herself and i can see her keeping those emotions deeply inside and hidden away to protect herself. I didn't imagine her being broken down and a babbling mess of desperation. Did injustice to her character.
Also, never been a fan of Sansa because i think she is a selfish, immature character and in so many ways she still is. After a massive battle where they almost all lost their lives, were able to band together and forget political ambitions because you were meant to see the pointlessness of it and appreciate life. Sansa, well she comes out the same person and starts plotting against her own family. Btw Dany by association with Jon, IS HER FAMILY. The attitude of the Starks, and especially Sansa pisses me off, what is her obsession with making the North a separate kingdom. Under the rule of Dany she would have all the freedom she wanted anyway. She's literally fighting for a title. Which in the end means nothing.
These are not the children Ned raised.
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 10, 2019 12:31:29 GMT
The best fan theory I've seen to justify "forgetting" the Iron Fleet is that Dany was feeling a little drowsy when they reached Dragonstone because she left her coffee at Winterfell.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 10, 2019 12:41:06 GMT
Can i just say, the thing that bothered me most is two things: - Brienne's reaction to Jaime leaving - Sansa's line about all the terrible things happening to her made her who she is... I just feel like it was so out of character for Brienne to be so devastated over a man. Sure she's been in love with Jaime for seasons now, but she had abandoned and accepted any circumstance of them being together. Hence why even when he was in the room, trying to get her drunk she didn't even realise he was making a move. In fact Brienne is very insecure about herself and i can see her keeping those emotions deeply inside and hidden away to protect herself. I didn't imagine her being broken down and a babbling mess of desperation. Did injustice to her character. Also, never been a fan of Sansa because i think she is a selfish, immature character and in so many ways she still is. After a massive battle where they almost all lost their lives, were able to band together and forget political ambitions because you were meant to see the pointlessness of it and appreciate life. Sansa, well she comes out the same person and starts plotting against her own family. Btw Dany by association with Jon, IS HER FAMILY. The attitude of the Starks, and especially Sansa pisses me off, what is her obsession with making the North a separate kingdom. Under the rule of Dany she would have all the freedom she wanted anyway. She's literally fighting for a title. Which in the end means nothing. These are not the children Ned raised. Sansa and Arya going full Mean Girls in the Godswood was painful. “She doesn’t even go here!” |
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Post by Enid on May 10, 2019 13:01:40 GMT
The only saving grace of Arya in the godwoods scene is that she at least says they needed Dany and Jon made the right decision, and seeing how she leaves for KL later, she is willing to help in the war against Cersei even if is just for her list.
But I'm so mad they turned Arya, one of the most open-minded and sociable characters in the books into this "I don't celebrate/don't need many allies" loner.
Also I feel the reason Dany and Arya have never interacted (WTF) is because the writers thought it would be impossible for them to talk for one minute and not like each other.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 11, 2019 18:44:37 GMT
Did anyone else actually like the Grey Worm/Missandei romance? I did. I loved their characters for their unwavering loyalty to Dany. I loved watching them grow from slaves to fully realized characters with hopes and dreams. You could see their reluctance to do anything that would bring personal satisfaction. Their instinct was to serve, and to recognize and give in to desire felt almost selfish to them.
I honestly think their relationship was once of the best romances if the series. They had better chemistry than Jon/Dany for sure.
Missandei and Grey Worm felt like some of the very few pure characters on GoT. Seeing Missandei's execution and Grey Worm's devastation was just heartbreaking. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it.
And the frustration that stems from "WHilE dAny KInD oF ForGoT aBouT ThE iROn FlEeT..."
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 11, 2019 19:15:11 GMT
Did anyone else actually like the Grey Worm/Missandei romance? I did. I loved their characters for their unwavering loyalty to Dany. I loved watching them grow from slaves to fully realized characters with hopes and dreams. You could see their reluctance to do anything that would bring personal satisfaction. Their instinct was to serve, and to recognize and give in to desire felt almost selfish to them. I honestly think their relationship was once of the best romances if the series. They had better chemistry than Jon/Dany for sure. Missandei and Grey Worm felt like some of the very few pure characters on GoT. Seeing Missandei's execution and Grey Worm's devastation was just heartbreaking. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. And the frustration that stems from "WHilE dAny KInD oF ForGoT aBouT ThE iROn FlEeT..." I found the romance better on rewatch. As far as I can remember, the only reason I disliked it at the time was because I thought it was taking precious screentime away from other more important scenes.
For instance, when Missandei stays with Grey Worm after he's wounded by the Sons of the Harpy, I found that scene to be really sweet when I rewatched it, since at the time I would've still been fuming over Barristan's death  .
I definitely appreciate the decision to try and flesh out Dany's few supporting characters rather than adding half a dozen more like the books did.
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Post by Basil on May 11, 2019 21:19:18 GMT
lol
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Post by Singer of Death on May 12, 2019 0:54:14 GMT
This is one of my favorite Beautiful Death artwork.  |
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Post by kingeomer on May 12, 2019 13:58:46 GMT
The only saving grace of Arya in the godwoods scene is that she at least says they needed Dany and Jon made the right decision, and seeing how she leaves for KL later, she is willing to help in the war against Cersei even if is just for her list. But I'm so mad they turned Arya, one of the most open-minded and sociable characters in the books into this "I don't celebrate/don't need many allies" loner. Also I feel the reason Dany and Arya have never interacted (WTF) is because the writers thought it would be impossible for them to talk for one minute and not like each other. Yes. Arya in the godswoods is trying to see both sides here. She understands Sansa's position but also Jon's because without Dany, her dragons and armies-they would not have had a prayer against the NK. I feel like D&D have a baseline for the characters and they don't waver from them: Arya is the death obsessed manic pixie dream girl with a list to finish and that's all she will ever be. For instance her turning down Gendry-while actually in character---could have been better done by the acknowledgement that he only thought he would ever be good enough for her if he was a Lord. This was never the case and she never imagined herself a lady...imagine if she said that she liked him for who he was and not for the fact he would have a Lord before his name and that she doesn't know if she can be a Lady. But I also feel like we didn't get much time for Arya and Gendry to develop into a true romance either...so  As for Sansa, she has changed and not necessarily for the better. I loathed the line that the trauma and abuse she went through made her who she was today and while there is not a lie to that, I still hated it. Sansa could say that she felt her father was too trusting, her brother was too trusting and took his eye off the prize (a free north, which technically wouldn't have been free because KL would not have acknowledged it), no one is loyal which lead to their mother and younger brother's death. The Northerners (in the show) are portrayed as self serving and going which ever way the window blows. So it's not surprising that Sansa is holding fast to the Northern Independence idea because she thinks it will earn unwavering loyalty. Imagine if Sansa and Dany had this conversation. Not saying that it would automatically have Sansa get her way but it might be something Dany would give consideration to, especially since she trusts Jon (again...a MARRIAGE PACT between the two could seal the deal that guarantees the North's loyalty and be an independent land that is an ally to Dany's throne). While Sansa has grown from the "little bird" to this grown woman...her current personality, her wishes/dreams etc have all been informed by how she was treated by Joffrey and the Lannisters, the deaths in her family, the marriage/rape/abuse of Ramsey and what she has seen happen. We could also say that Arya's rejection of a life with Gendry could come from a fear of loss. Keep in mind that Arya has been in the position 2x times of being powerless to help people that she loves...that day in Kings Landing when Ned is murdered and at the Red Wedding when she cannot reach Catelyn and Robb. The show will never give her that depth of characterization though. Did anyone else actually like the Grey Worm/Missandei romance? I did. I loved their characters for their unwavering loyalty to Dany. I loved watching them grow from slaves to fully realized characters with hopes and dreams. You could see their reluctance to do anything that would bring personal satisfaction. Their instinct was to serve, and to recognize and give in to desire felt almost selfish to them. I honestly think their relationship was once of the best romances if the series. They had better chemistry than Jon/Dany for sure. Missandei and Grey Worm felt like some of the very few pure characters on GoT. Seeing Missandei's execution and Grey Worm's devastation was just heartbreaking. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. And the frustration that stems from "WHilE dAny KInD oF ForGoT aBouT ThE iROn FlEeT..." I did. They felt like one of the few true romances of the show (besides Ned and Catelyn and Robb and Talisa). What made Missandei's death so tragic is that she served a queen who gave her freedom and acknowledged her worth as a person and the fact that she found love along the way was great. Missandei had a life that she wasn't sure would happen and to see if cruelly taken away from her was hard to watch. Especially when you know no amount to negotiating would have saved her life. This is one of my favorite Beautiful Death artwork. It is heartbreaking and beautiful. |
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