Quoth
Sweet Summer Child
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Post by Quoth on Apr 28, 2015 15:32:11 GMT
i could see them doing another flashback at the start of season 6 showing the tower of joy. with Lyanna, Ned, Howland Reed and some Kingsguard. Then at the end Lyanna will call the baby Jon and end with 'promise me'. That would be amazing. I could also see them using Bran to look back into this time and essentially let it flow like a flashback. because i think jon will get stabbed this season I've wanted to see the ToJ scene more than any other scene in either books or show--feels like I've been waiting, oh, I don't know, 200 years or so, waiting for it... waiting... sigh. It's gotta happen, sometime, HBO please! If just for the sake of my peace of mind!! Absolutely! I lost it when they didn't have Ned's fever dream in the dungeon in season one. I do hope they find a logical way to fit it in to the show story. Would be epic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 0:12:52 GMT
i could see them doing another flashback at the start of season 6 showing the tower of joy. with Lyanna, Ned, Howland Reed and some Kingsguard. Then at the end Lyanna will call the baby Jon and end with 'promise me'. That would be amazing. I could also see them using Bran to look back into this time and essentially let it flow like a flashback. because i think jon will get stabbed this season I've wanted to see the ToJ scene more than any other scene in either books or show--feels like I've been waiting, oh, I don't know, 200 years or so, waiting for it... waiting... sigh. It's gotta happen, sometime, HBO please! If just for the sake of my peace of mind!! Yeh i really want to see that sequence as well. i think it would've been awesome as Ned's fever dream because it would look different eg. 'red sky' and stuff. but SOMETHING has to happen. My other option would be whilst Jon is passed out he has a dream with Ned in the Winterfell crypts. He then tells Jon everything. They've also filmed Brandon Starks, Rickon Starks deaths by the Mad King and never shown it. I'd really like to see that footage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 1:21:03 GMT
The more I've thought about this, and considered some hints, foilers, spoilers and other info out there on the net, the more I think Melisandre is probably going to play the biggest role in Jon's parentage reveal, at least on the show. They've emphasized again and again how important "King's blood" is in the R'hllor religion and we know what Mel wants from Jon Snow. If she can't get it one way, she'll get it another (and not just sexually). Melisandre hasn't had any 'visions' in her fires about Jon yet on the show. They may be saving that for the big reveal. Once she realizes it, she'll be hell-bent to save his life by any means possible. Melisandre's never pulled the same resurrection tricks as the other Red Priests so that's when she'll reveal Jon's parentage to him. Other fans here and elsewhere have included that in their theories but up until this season we've had zero way of knowing which direction the show would take with it. As unsullied now, we're speculating on something that could happen one way on the show and an entirely different way in the book!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 1:41:59 GMT
I went and read up on Mel's visions while at the Wall in ADWD where she has more than the usual amount of them, even after Stannis already left for Winterfell. Theory goes her visions are intensified due to coming events (The Great Other incoming, Dany's Dragons, Jon's warging - all magical stuff etc) ... Here's the best info condensed and not quoted from book on the ASoIaF Wiki: "Melisandre remains at the Wall when Stannis marches south to face the Boltons.[1] Her powers are much stronger at the Wall. She constantly searches her fires for visions. When she looks into the flames, she sees a “wooden face, corpse white” with a thousand red eyes, accompanied by a boy with a wolf’s face. She assumes that they are servants of the Great Other.[4] She asks to see Azor Ahai, hoping for Stannis, but sees only Jon Snow surrounded by skulls, his face changing between that of a man and that of a wolf. When she sees Jon, she also sees enemies surrounding him, and warns him of daggers in the dark.[16] She also tells him that she sees his sister, Arya Stark, as a girl in grey on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage toward Castle Black.[17] She continually tries to warn him of these visions, but he refuses to listen. The vision of the girl on the horse comes to pass, but the girl is Alys Karstark, not Arya.
When Mance Rayder is to be burned as a deserter, Melisandre places a glamour over him, making him appear as the wildling, Rattleshirt. Rattleshirt in turn was glamoured made to look like Mance, and killed in his place. She eventually reveals Rattleshirt’s true identity to Jon Snow, and sends him to Winterfell to rescue "Arya" (not knowing that it is actually Jeyne Poole) in an attempt to win his trust. She also predicts the deaths of three rangers of the Watch. When they are returned by the Weeper to the Wall as eye-less heads atop spears as she predicted, Jon Snow begins to take her visions more seriously, but is still wary of her.
Melisandre then tells Lord Snow that the wildlings will next attack at Eastwatch, as she has seen in the flames towers by the sea engulfed in a black and bloody tide. She acknowledges, however, that the towers of her vision did not look like those at Eastwatch. When Snow plans to send men to Hardhome on a rescue mission, she urges him not to, claiming it is a lost cause and that she has seen that none of the ships he sent there will return.[18]"awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/MelisandreSo based on that character study, and how Melisandre is being portrayed on the show, I have to think it will be her doing that reveals Jon's parentage and not Bran Stark or Howland Reed or someone else. They've played Mel up a ton in the show and she's a fan favorite amongst the unsullied for obvious reasons. And it's anybody's guess whether she has anything to do with it in the books too, but I'm going to go with Melisandre as an important key in Jon's parentage on the show.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 1:43:23 GMT
The more I've thought about this, and considered some hints, foilers, spoilers and other info out there on the net, the more I think Melisandre is probably going to play the biggest role in Jon's parentage reveal, at least on the show. They've emphasized again and again how important "King's blood" is in the R'hllor religion and we know what Mel wants from Jon Snow. If she can't get it one way, she'll get it another (and not just sexually). Melisandre hasn't had any 'visions' in her fires about Jon yet on the show. They may be saving that for the big reveal. Once she realizes it, she'll be hell-bent to save his life by any means possible. Melisandre's never pulled the same resurrection tricks as the other Red Priests so that's when she'll reveal Jon's parentage to him. Other fans here and elsewhere have included that in their theories but up until this season we've had zero way of knowing which direction the show would take with it. As unsullied now, we're speculating on something that could happen one way on the show and an entirely different way in the book! Excellent post, cogent and entirely plausible within the show's version of events. I just hope it doesn't happen! But that's just me, I really dislike Mel, her burning people alive, her hold on Stannis, her mysterious smugness about her 'rightness' of all things. Would hate to see her step into the middle of The Big Reveal of the entire series. But oh well, as you say, it surely could happen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 1:48:00 GMT
The more I've thought about this, and considered some hints, foilers, spoilers and other info out there on the net, the more I think Melisandre is probably going to play the biggest role in Jon's parentage reveal, at least on the show. They've emphasized again and again how important "King's blood" is in the R'hllor religion and we know what Mel wants from Jon Snow. If she can't get it one way, she'll get it another (and not just sexually). Melisandre hasn't had any 'visions' in her fires about Jon yet on the show. They may be saving that for the big reveal. Once she realizes it, she'll be hell-bent to save his life by any means possible. Melisandre's never pulled the same resurrection tricks as the other Red Priests so that's when she'll reveal Jon's parentage to him. Other fans here and elsewhere have included that in their theories but up until this season we've had zero way of knowing which direction the show would take with it. As unsullied now, we're speculating on something that could happen one way on the show and an entirely different way in the book! Excellent post, cogent and entirely plausible within the show's version of events. I just hope it doesn't happen! But that's just me, I really dislike Mel, her burning people alive, her hold on Stannis, her mysterious smugness about her 'rightness' of all things. Would hate to see her step into the middle of The Big Reveal of the entire series. But oh well, as you say, it surely could happen. Oh I totally agree with you ... I do not really want it to be Melisandre who reveals Jon's parentage. I have always hoped she would eventually be cast out (by Stannis or opposing religion factions) and no longer meddling in the affairs at the wall. But I think I'm resigning myself to the fact she's going to play a big role. Had they left her out of the show or even made her a minor character we only saw for a few scenes in one season and a few this season, I'd think her less likely. But they've consistently pumped her up as a major character again and again. They're not just doing that for sex appeal no matter how much HBO does love that ... there has to be other major story driven reasons. Her connection to Jon Snow is going to be emphasized more in the show is my guess.
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Post by mattpeto on May 1, 2015 20:43:56 GMT
The curious question I have is will we get this answer in TWOW or in Season 6/7? There's no shot ADOS beats Season 7 and I have a feeling Martin will want to get that one out before D&D does.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 2, 2015 10:04:38 GMT
What if the story by Godric Borrell is actually true? Then D&D really shouldn't be bragging about knowing that answer in their meeting with GRRM, and I'd have to wonder why they invented a Jon/Ned scene talking about his mystery mama back in 1.02. I don't think they had started enjoying trolling book readers way back then. That scene and the millions of times their guessing Jon's parentage correctly with GRRM has been recounted are what makes me sure R+L=J is part of show canon. The curious question I have is will we get this answer in TWOW or in Season 6/7? There's no shot ADOS beats Season 7 and I have a feeling Martin will want to get that one out before D&D does. You're optimistic to think he'll even get TWoW out before s6 is done airing. I think he's probably trying to get it done by 2016, but who knows if it'll hit stores before that summer?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 10:12:02 GMT
What if the story by Godric Borrell is actually true? Then D&D really shouldn't be bragging about knowing that answer in their meeting with GRRM, and I'd have to wonder why they invented a Jon/Ned scene talking about his mystery mama back in 1.02. I don't think they had started enjoying trolling book readers way back then. That scene and the millions of times their guessing Jon's parentage correctly with GRRM has been recounted are what makes me sure R+L=J is part of show canon. Them getting the right answer to that question pre-dates ADWD's release by at least a few years. So that alone disproves that Borrell's story could be at all accurate.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 2, 2015 10:36:34 GMT
Then D&D really shouldn't be bragging about knowing that answer in their meeting with GRRM, and I'd have to wonder why they invented a Jon/Ned scene talking about his mystery mama back in 1.02. I don't think they had started enjoying trolling book readers way back then. That scene and the millions of times their guessing Jon's parentage correctly with GRRM has been recounted are what makes me sure R+L=J is part of show canon. Them getting the right answer to that question pre-dates ADWD's release by at least a few years. So that alone disproves that Borrell's story could be at all accurate.
Yeah, I was thinking that too, but then some contrarian would say they could still say his mother was Wylla based on the first three books (and this Wylla was somehow a wetnurse at Starfall and a fisherman's daughter in the Vale), or that he gave them one last unpublished clue from Godric Borrell before asking the question.
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Post by AdmiralKyrd on May 2, 2015 11:22:41 GMT
I don't think they wanted to spoil anything and cause R+L=J to grow for the showatchers, yet it did. I still have my Skype log of the person who spoiled it for me.
And wow. I just went back to read the skype log between me and the guy and he also spoiled Tyrion killing Tywin, but thankfully I never noticed it.
[6/3/2013 10:19:22 AM] NRG: tyrion probably betrays his dad [6/3/2013 10:19:40 AM] NRG: that should prove to be interesting
But then again I had that spoiled later by Emergency Awesome in a Doctor Who video, so it's not like it mattered. *sigh*
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 10:28:05 GMT
I know that there are some people within the fandom who think that Jon isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but Daenerys is. I do not subscribe to this in any capacity, but... did this scene from 401(?) send those theorists into a craze? Dat blue winter rose.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 12:20:04 GMT
Any theory D&D thought up, theres no way the fandom hasn't thought of.
It's Rhaeger and Lyanna. No doubt. GRRM probably knows that everyone knows. i don't think he'll care that much if the show reveals it first because its already widely established.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 13:42:57 GMT
It's widely established within the internet fandom, but not so much amongst the average book reader I don't think. It's kind of obvious in the books when you know what to look for, but it's easy to miss.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 20:15:45 GMT
Until I started reading and posting on westeros.org forums, I didn't really have a clue about all the theories. What I can say as a long-time reader of the series since it first came out is that I've always thought there was more to it than just Ned Stark fathering a bastard on some servant girl. I didn't do in depth analysis but I just had a hunch he was holding back on that reveal for a good reason. Once I became an internet fan and not just a book reader, I went back and put two and two together as many have - solidifying my hunch.
As it's been said hundreds of times over the years, IF in fact Wylla or some other no-name was really Jon's Mother, why keep it a secret for so many books? What's the big deal? Why wouldn't Ned just tell Jon before he went up to the wall rather than leave us hanging with "The next time we meet, I'll tell you about your Mother" which of course never happened since Ned lost his head!
I've been clinging to that reasoning/logic (hope?!) for years. Mr. Martin is a cruel man sometimes with the twists he weaves into his tapestry - but he does stay straight and true on a few key important characters and I think we all know by now Jon Snow is one of those - love him or hate him. He's never let slip the truth (except to D&D) to anyone for public knowledge but plenty of hints and giddy "I've got a big secret!" moments over the years leads me to believe the theory is correct.
Now we just have to figure out when it's going to be revealed and how!
I do like/prefer the idea of a death-bed dream somehow connected to Bran ... maybe warging through the wolves or something to be the reveal and not something Melisandre sees in her fire visions ... but somehow she's going to end up tying it all together is still my guess (at least on the show).
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Post by King Tommen on May 3, 2015 21:14:10 GMT
Between Season 4 and Season 5 so far, Rhaegar and Lyanna are getting namechecked like crazy and there is absolutely no reason the show would call so much attention to these characters who are long-dead unless they need the audience to understand their history because it's super important.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 21:39:35 GMT
Between Season 4 and Season 5 so far, Rhaegar and Lyanna are getting namechecked like crazy and there is absolutely no reason the show would call so much attention to these characters who are long-dead unless they need the audience to understand their history because it's super important. Yeah there's this, too! It's a good indication they are starting to build up the viewer knowledge of Lyanna and Rhaegar, neither of whom have existed to show-only watchers except as casually mentioned by one of their relatives (or Robert at the very start). It makes sense they'd focus entire scenes on them (talks between Barristan and Daenarys for example) as it helps the audience remember them. Sure, they've done a lot of fluff scenes that didn't have any meaning whatsoever to the story that could have been better used elsewhere but these are key scenes with main characters and focused entirely on a non-existent (show) character. That really is the biggest indication they are going to do a reveal soon.
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Post by King Tommen on May 3, 2015 23:32:14 GMT
You could have Littlefinger say a lot of things to Sansa. The fact that they took a crucial goodbye scene between them and had LF use it to tell her (and the audience) the Tourney of Harrenhal story is a huge deal. There's no other narrative use of that story other than to hammer the point home that Rhaegar was really into Lyanna.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 23:43:05 GMT
You could have Littlefinger say a lot of things to Sansa. The fact that they took a crucial goodbye scene between them and had LF use it to tell her (and the audience) the Tourney of Harrenhal story is a huge deal. There's no other narrative use of that story other than to hammer the point home that Rhaegar was really into Lyanna. And did you SEE that odd look he gave Sansa after she said "Yes, then he kidnapped her and raped her..." ?! I mean, maybe we're really grasping at straws here, but I could have sworn he was about to say something and then thought better of it and said "Come, lets talk where the dead can't hear us ..." and led her out of the crypt which even that was pretty freaking suggestive!
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Post by day dreamer on May 4, 2015 6:02:53 GMT
I'm not sure if tonight's episode could've beat us over the head with R+L=J anymore.
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