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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 14:34:19 GMT
day dreamer Andrew just dropped me an e-mail that he finally started watching GoT which made him think of me  He just saw 1x04 and he says he loves the show. I have no heart to even respond truthfully 
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 22, 2016 14:43:12 GMT
I'm sorry. But I disagree. You sugestion for Jon doesn't have an ending at all. It will be like ending S5 with Kill the Boy. Basically, nothing happens. The same applies to the Bolton's. That was their scene from E5, not something you could end a season with. You would end Dany's and Tyrion's storyline with E8? And then what? Daznak will open S6? Daznak is a logical culmination of her storyline in S5, not something to open S6. Walk of shame in mid-season? Sorry. But I really disagree with everything you said. You would make S5 without any culmination or exciting moment. And many people already thought that S5 was slow. Jon's story has an ending. He's now the LC, he'll be going Hardhome next series. The big moments for him throughout the series will be him becoming LC, Aemon dying, Sam heads to Oldtown. Not every character needs a big "wow" moment at the end of every series. Besides in what I pitched, all of them, ecept Jon have that. How does this idea for season 5 have no culmination anyway? 1) Big battle in the north is coming 2) Deepwood Motte 3) New threat is coming from the Iron Islands, The Kingsmoot scene 4) Glimmer of hope in Mereen between Dany and Tyrion 5) Cersei being imprisoned changes the dynamic of Kings landing entirely 6) Sansa escaping Winterfell means the Boltons have lost their edge, meaning as early as the start of next series the Boltons will be scattering to find her 7) Dorne actually has a story and interesting characters now 8) No less than 2 battles have occured in the closing episodes - Deepwood Motte/Clash in Dorne What people found boring about season 5 was that it was the same people talking to each other over and over. How many Dan & Daario, Jon & Stannis etc talking to each other scenes were there? This idea reintroduces some characters, uses some that aren't used nearly as well as they could of been and introduces some new ones. Season 5 was slow because it rushed to a point, glossed over potentially entertaining stuff and jumped to a conclusion that was not as good as it should of been. |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 22, 2016 14:52:34 GMT
day dreamer Andrew just dropped me an e-mail that he finally started watching GoT which made him think of me He just saw 1x04 and he says he loves the show. I have no heart to even respond truthfully omg don't break him. just tell him to come here. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 14:59:27 GMT
day dreamer Andrew just dropped me an e-mail that he finally started watching GoT which made him think of me He just saw 1x04 and he says he loves the show. I have no heart to even respond truthfully omg don't break him. just tell him to come here. Those two pieces of advice contradict each other I'll just ask him if he is already the member of Church of Catelyn, he must be after that AWESOME 1x04 ending  |
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mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 15:12:41 GMT
Not every character needs a big "wow" moment, but in your suggestion no one gets big moment. And every character needs a climax. The climax is an important literary element.
Becoming a LC is something that happened in E2. Even if they were extremely faithful to the books it would happen by E4. Aemon's death is not a big moment for the show watchers. He is not a big character. It would be like cutting Ned's death from S1 and instead saying that Jory's death was enough for KL in S1. Sam heads to Oldtown is a big culmination of the Wall storyline?
1. If something is coming, that is not a culmination, it is a build up
2. And then what? You will end S5 with that and have all of S6 with Stannis slowly dying in the snow?
3. That's the exposition, not a culmination. Even GRRM didn't end that plot with Kingsmoot
4. And then what? Where you would put Daznak? Her time with the Dothraki? What would happen with Jorah and Varys? Daznak is the logical end for S5's arc and not a logical opening for S6
5. S1 didn't end with Ned Stark being imprisoned. And then what? You want to use AFFC and ADWD for 2 seasons, but you used all her chapters from AFFC in S5? You have only 2 chapters left for S6? What would she do in S6?
6. That was the end of S5. And her escape is leading to the very big storyline in S6, which can't happen if Stannis is still alive. And he would be, because you want to end his storyline with DM
7. Your suggestion is very similar to their plot from S5. A poisoned tip on a piece of jewelry is not much smarter than poisonous kiss. But you want Dorne's plot from AFFC to last 2 season. How?
8. You are really comparing Deepwood Motte with Hardhome and clashes in Dorne with Daznak. Daznak and Hardhome were about ice and fire, those are the most important things in this story. Stannis and the Martells are secondary characters.
You said what people found boring about season 5 was that it was the same people talking to each other over and over. And you are suggesting even more odf that. What is your Jon and the Boltons'a arc if not expanding everything that happened to them from E1-5 in season 5?
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 22, 2016 15:52:00 GMT
Not every character needs a big "wow" moment, but in your suggestion no one gets big moment. And every character needs a climax. The climax is an important literary element. Becoming a LC is something that happened in E2. Even if they were extremely faithful to the books it would happen by E4. Aemon's death is not a big moment for the show watchers. He is not a big character. It would be like cutting Ned's death from S1 and instead saying that Jory's death was enough for KL in S1. Sam heads to Oldtown is a big culmination of the Wall storyline? 1. If something is coming, that is not a culmination, it is a build up 2. And then what? You will end S5 with that and have all of S6 with Stannis slowly dying in the snow? 3. That's the exposition, not a culmination. Even GRRM didn't end that plot with Kingsmoot 4. And then what? Where you would put Daznak? Her time with the Dothraki? What would happen with Jorah and Varys? Daznak is the logical end for S5's arc and not a logical opening for S6 5. S1 didn't end with Ned Stark being imprisoned. And then what? You want to use AFFC and ADWD for 2 seasons, but you used all her chapters from AFFC in S5? You have only 2 chapters left for S6? What would she do in S6? 6. That was the end of S5. And her escape is leading to the very big storyline in S6, which can't happen if Stannis is still alive. And he would be, because you want to end his storyline with DM 7. Your suggestion is very similar to their plot from S5. A poisoned tip on a piece of jewelry is not much smarter than poisonous kiss. But you want Dorne's plot from AFFC to last 2 season. How? 8. You are really comparing Deepwood Motte with Hardhome and clashes in Dorne with Daznak. Daznak and Hardhome were about ice and fire, those are the most important things in this story. Stannis and the Martells are secondary characters. You said what people found boring about season 5 was that it was the same people talking to each other over and over. And you are suggesting even more odf that. What is your Jon and the Boltons'a arc if not expanding everything that happened to them from E1-5 in season 5? You said they did the best with what they had. I disagree. I said there is more they could have done. I cannot redesign all of 10 hours worth of tv, explain every scene, every action and every decision. But to say my idea has no culminating moment what so ever is ludicrous. Its not just Stannis and the Boltons in the North for 1. It's also the Vale if Baelish does come north, as he said he would. Spiked jewelry with a poisoned tip was actually something that was used as opposed to poisonous kisses. No one compared Deepwood Mott to Hardhome, please don't put words in my mouth. I said it's a battle, nothing more. The Dornish scene if done right could be big. It would set up great characters who aren't just presented as bratty sisters who like to strip and seduce people and kill princesses and stuff. Sansa's storyline can absoloutely happen if Stannis is still alive. Contrary to my wishes and voodoo ceremonies, Stannis is not immortal. He can (forgive me) die. As to "waiting for stannis to die in the snow", Karstark betrayal, finding Theon and Sansa (maybe), the fact Ramsay will be out looking for her, plus a few new characters in the mix (Hugo Wull, some Mormonts, northerners, plus Yara). Yeah, more happens here than his march in series 5. Sorry. Cersei isn't Ned, the Faith isn't Joffery. People want to see Cersei pay, but we quickly realise the faith aren't entirely good either. Euron is a new Character who needs a big climax and George didn't end with the Red Wedding or the Battle of the Wall either. Guess those endings sucked. Every Game of Thrones series ends with something coming, or else there would not be a next series. If every series had a definitive ending what would happen next year? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 15:53:23 GMT
I agree with this. I still think he'll be at least mildly bothered to learn that Ramsay has been raping her. Maybe I'm giving that little fucker too much credit. I go back and forth with Littlefinger in this aspect too. I'm with you that I think his end game means having Sansa as his wife to fill out his Cat fantasies, but what I can't figure out is if he was lying about not knowing anything about Ramsay. Because then he's an even bigger piece of shit. You and @witchy have an excellent point right here about Littlefinger and I'll be back to that in a minute ... but first ... Wow... did I really open a 5 page can of worms by praising 5x06 on my first re-watch of it in a year?  Upon carefully reading all the comments (and giving a lot of 'likes') I'd like to think after all this time we are able to discuss it much more intellectually now. I certainly didn't mean to open old wounds on this touchy subject of Sansa's massive character/story changes done in Season 5. That being said, I appreciate both sides of the argument as to whether or not this storyline should have gone to Sansa as it was done and whether it was a smart decision on the writers part. Whether including marriage (and abuse/rape) from Ramsay was necessary will probably never be agreed upon but I think we can all at least agree that Season 5 was a huge build up for what Sansa will do and become in Season 6 about to begin. For that I appreciate it and can't wait to see where they take her next now that it looks like she's finally going to turn the tables. Now back to that interesting topic day dreamer and @witchy were discussing with everyone about Littlefingers true motives and whether or not he really knew what Ramsay was when he set up the marriage with Roose. In the show it seems he did not, or at least they gave little hint of it. The only scene where he directly says anything to Ramsay is just before he leaves for King's Landing. They stand on the walls of Winterfell and Ramsay remarks that Sansa is truly beautiful and thanks LF and promises he will be a good husband to her. Now Littlefinger is a pretty good judge of character all things considered, it's how he's gotten so far in life. He can ferret out a liar as he is a master liar himself. I have to think he at least has a pretty good idea Ramsay is not a good man but perhaps doesn't know the true horrific level of what a monster he really is behind closed doors. Let's not forget LF knew exactly what kind of monster Joffrey was (and catered to it with Ros even) and he was the mastermind that got Sansa out of that situation. Would Littlefinger knowingly place Sansa with Ramsay if he knew what Ramsay had done to Theon, to the women he hunted with dogs and other horrific details? I honestly don't know at this point. In the books, lots of people know about Ramsay's evil ways. He's infamous. The author goes into detail about it from rumors and gossip. But on the show they've omitted that and only the audience knows exactly how awful he is beforehand. I think they may have purposely downplayed it so that it comes as more of a shock to the Northern Lords when Theon and Sansa expose what's going on inside Winterfell exactly. Yes of course the fact the Boltons betrayed the Starks is a HUGE justifiable reason to want to destroy the Boltons, but what happened to Sansa is the straw that breaks the camel's back and puts things into motion on the show. Did they need to do that? Without knowing how GRRM writes the 'last straw' once Jon Snow responds to the "pink letter" and all that, I don't think any of us can say for certain yet. The writers of the show have the privilege of information we do not have ourselves. For that I am willing to keep an open mind and heart to the show and appreciate it's choices. I do think that scene in the trailer where Littlefinger turns around with a very pensive look in the Godswood is very telling. His jig may be up this time... it may be the end for our villainous mockingbird. I will be glad he finally gets what's coming to him but have to admit I love him, always have... he's been such a catalyst for so much of the story and the way he has manipulated everyone (especially Cersei) was brilliant. I shall miss him when he's gone! |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 22, 2016 16:07:46 GMT
@envie I don't think you opened a can of worms, it's just merely a discussion in which not all parties agree.
Re: Littlefinger, it's just really hard for me to believe that he didn't know about Ramsay. LF and Varys are written as knowing just about everything, so for LF to have all the details on Joffrey like you pointed out, and not Ramsay is just strange. It makes me think LF knew all of that and dumped her there on purpose, but if she's his Catelyn proxy, why would he do that? If he knew Stannis was marching on Winterfell, why not just wait at the Vale to see who wins that battle THEN present the Sansa Stark card. That was always the more logical move, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 16:18:47 GMT
@envie I don't think you opened a can of worms, it's just merely a discussion in which not all parties agree. Re: Littlefinger, it's just really hard for me to believe that he didn't know about Ramsay. LF and Varys are written as knowing just about everything, so for LF to have all the details on Joffrey like you pointed out, and not Ramsay is just strange. It makes me think LF knew all of that and dumped her there on purpose, but if she's his Catelyn proxy, why would he do that? If he knew Stannis was marching on Winterfell, why not just wait at the Vale to see who wins that battle THEN present the Sansa Stark card. That was always the more logical move, IMO. Excellent point! The only reason I believe he did not want to hold onto his 'win card' with Sansa was because he can't afford to have Cersei or anyone in King's Landing find out it was him who stole Sansa away in the first place, right? Granted, he's let the lords of the Vale in on the secret but they've no love for the Lannisters so why would they tattle? It was still a risky gamble. If Littlefinger would have kept Sansa and waited to see how the war between Stannis and the Boltons played out, then what? How does he strategically place her with the winner in a way that makes sense? He did admit to Sansa there on the hill over Moat Cailin that he's a gambling man and betting on Stannis was the way to go. I think he really thought Stannis was going to win - everyone did. IF he thought Stannis would win, he thought Sansa would be safe because Stannis would destroy the Boltons and name her Wardeness of the North - that was his gamble and he lost. Now he's going to have to support a fight against them with the Vale which is pretty much what he told Cersei he would do anyways. This way he comes out looking clean at least to the Lannister side of it. I think he's planning on the Lannisters being wiped out soon too though because otherwise it was risky to let anyone at all know he has Sansa. Littlefinger has been working for a long time to put all these pieces into motion at once to see King's Landing implode. I don't think he set up the Sparrows thing, that was just a happy coincidence for him with Cersei. He was ok with them destroying his brothels if it means they are going to destroy the crown too along with it. |
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Post by MarcusAntonius on Apr 22, 2016 16:26:48 GMT
I can see *why* they put Sansa in the North, but their execution was poor. Yes the actors were good in their scenes, but I don't see how dumbing down Sansa is better than having her actually learn something in the Vale? They teased dark!empowered! Sansa when we last saw her in S4 then when we meet up with her again she's going along with several stupid plans and not questioning Littlefinger at all? It made her into the "stupid little girl" all over again. Plus, the fact that Roose gives Ramsay fArya in the books also felt like another browbeat from Roose because he'd never give his bastard a real Stark daughter. I'm sure Sansa's Northern stuff is going to be great this season, and I'm not sure how I would've done it differently to get her into this point now, but I can't call her Winterfell story good. So on point. I remember being hyped for Sansas season five storyline after her last scene of season 4 but then they just retread old waters and used completely inconsistent shoddy writing to make it happen. Another thing that pisses me off about S5 Winterfell is some Northern Lords really should have been a part of the storyline. They waited wayyyyyy to long to cast them. But as you said s6 looks awfully promising for the North. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 16:38:58 GMT
I go back and forth with Littlefinger in this aspect too. I'm with you that I think his end game means having Sansa as his wife to fill out his Cat fantasies, but what I can't figure out is if he was lying about not knowing anything about Ramsay. Because then he's an even bigger piece of shit. You and @witchy have an excellent point right here about Littlefinger and I'll be back to that in a minute ... but first ... Wow... did I really open a 5 page can of worms by praising 5x06 on my first re-watch of it in a year? Upon carefully reading all the comments (and giving a lot of 'likes') I'd like to think after all this time we are able to discuss it much more intellectually now. I certainly didn't mean to open old wounds on this touchy subject of Sansa's massive character/story changes done in Season 5. That being said, I appreciate both sides of the argument as to whether or not this storyline should have gone to Sansa as it was done and whether it was a smart decision on the writers part. Whether including marriage (and abuse/rape) from Ramsay was necessary will probably never be agreed upon but I think we can all at least agree that Season 5 was a huge build up for what Sansa will do and become in Season 6 about to begin. For that I appreciate it and can't wait to see where they take her next now that it looks like she's finally going to turn the tables. Now back to that interesting topic day dreamer and @witchy were discussing with everyone about Littlefingers true motives and whether or not he really knew what Ramsay was when he set up the marriage with Roose. In the show it seems he did not, or at least they gave little hint of it. The only scene where he directly says anything to Ramsay is just before he leaves for King's Landing. They stand on the walls of Winterfell and Ramsay remarks that Sansa is truly beautiful and thanks LF and promises he will be a good husband to her. Now Littlefinger is a pretty good judge of character all things considered, it's how he's gotten so far in life. He can ferret out a liar as he is a master liar himself. I have to think he at least has a pretty good idea Ramsay is not a good man but perhaps doesn't know the true horrific level of what a monster he really is behind closed doors. Let's not forget LF knew exactly what kind of monster Joffrey was (and catered to it with Ros even) and he was the mastermind that got Sansa out of that situation. Would Littlefinger knowingly place Sansa with Ramsay if he knew what Ramsay had done to Theon, to the women he hunted with dogs and other horrific details? I honestly don't know at this point. In the books, lots of people know about Ramsay's evil ways. He's infamous. The author goes into detail about it from rumors and gossip. But on the show they've omitted that and only the audience knows exactly how awful he is beforehand. I think they may have purposely downplayed it so that it comes as more of a shock to the Northern Lords when Theon and Sansa expose what's going on inside Winterfell exactly. Yes of course the fact the Boltons betrayed the Starks is a HUGE justifiable reason to want to destroy the Boltons, but what happened to Sansa is the straw that breaks the camel's back and puts things into motion on the show. Did they need to do that? Without knowing how GRRM writes the 'last straw' once Jon Snow responds to the "pink letter" and all that, I don't think any of us can say for certain yet. The writers of the show have the privilege of information we do not have ourselves. For that I am willing to keep an open mind and heart to the show and appreciate it's choices. I do think that scene in the trailer where Littlefinger turns around with a very pensive look in the Godswood is very telling. His jig may be up this time... it may be the end for our villainous mockingbird. I will be glad he finally gets what's coming to him but have to admit I love him, always have... he's been such a catalyst for so much of the story and the way he has manipulated everyone (especially Cersei) was brilliant. I shall miss him when he's gone! Agreement all around! Except I think LF will find ways to wriggle out of this one. I think he has the potential to be the last villain taken down; at the very least, the last human villain taken down. Maybe what he does and does not know will be revealed eventually. And shock us all over again. *shrugs* I hope you don't feel bad for bringing this up. It's just that this argument has all the elements that we get touchy about because we all love this story so much: the whole concept of adaptation and fidelity to the books vs. dedication to the best possible TV show. Sansa's arc. Stannis's arc. Cat's arc. Rape and "agency" and how women are portrayed. It's all there! |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 16:48:32 GMT
I don't think anyone should feel bad for sharing their point of view. What's the harm in discussing stuff? Why should some people here immediately have to apologize for sharing their views when they happen to be negative or something? Some of people here like the way the show goes, some don't. Nobody should have to apologize for expressing themselves. I may be silent about that interview D&D gave lately or what Lena said about using a body double and keep my trashing of those to my website but I still don't understand some things in the show and the two I choose to speak of whenever I see them brought up here is what I consider two dumbest things the show has done - Sansa's arc in s5 and the exclusion of LS. I want to be convinced that there is a purpose of this and at least thanks to discussing it I do see why some people feel those choices were OK. Now I don't agree with that and I think if the goal was made to make Sansa hate Boltons it should be otherwise portrayed than by resorting to abusing her character further but at least by discussing this stuff I can understand people who are fine with changes.
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mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
Posts: 346
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 16:51:39 GMT
Of course I'm not asking you to make an outline for 2 seasons.
You said that they could have split AFFC and ADWD into 2 parts and make 2 seasons of that, and I'm simply asking you where? There is no RW event in the middle of those 2 books.
So you said you would end Cersei's season with her imprisonment. But that doesn't make much sense, because Cersei has 12 chapters in those books. If you end her storyline with chapter 10, where HS took her, you are not really splitting her arc in 2 parts. You would use 10 chapters in S5 and leave only 2 for S6.
They can't make her season 6 with only 2 chapters left from ADWD. And if they start using TWOW in your version of the show in S6, then your suggestion is completely pointless IMO. Because you wouldn't make 2 seasons of her 12 chapters, you would just put her storyline from E10 last year, to E1 or E2 this year and everyting else would be the same.
So you would not create 2 seasons from her material from the last two books. And if you can't make 2 seasons of it, and I think no one can, then you should just put WoS at the end of S5 where it belongs naturally.
The same applies to Dany and Tyrion. Your suggestion is to end their storyline with E8 this year. But that is't splitting their story in two.
You would use 70-80% of their story in S5.
You are just cutting every climax from S5 and for some reason moving it to S6.
You can't make 2 full seasons of 5 Arya's chapters. You can't make 2 seasons of Theon chapters, because those chapters naturally end with his escape. There is nothing in the middle where you could satisfyingly split them. You can't have Jaime in the Riverlands for 2 seasons, or Brienne. Their storylines are just not that long.
You can't split Jon's and Dany's storyline because there is nothing in the middle. And Daznak and FTW are natural end for those two.
The problem with the last two books is that they have so many storylines, but those storylines were short, one-season storylines, not something you could split in 2. So they have to cut some things, or move, push some things like Riveralnds and the Iron Islands, because there is no enough material for 2 seasons there.
Sansa's storyline in S6 can't happen if Stannis is alive in S6, and he would be alive until the end of S6 if we follow your suggestion. Sansa will be part of Northern war in S6, she will fight with the Boltons. That can't happen if Stannis is still alive.
More happened of course, but you will have Karstarks in S6. Ramsay will be looking for her in S6. You will have a few new characters in the mix in S6 with many Northern lords and one lady.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 16:59:23 GMT
Agreement all around! Except I think LF will find ways to wriggle out of this one. I think he has the potential to be the last villain taken down; at the very least, the last human villain taken down. Maybe what he does and does not know will be revealed eventually. And shock us all over again. *shrugs* I hope you don't feel bad for bringing this up. It's just that this argument has all the elements that we get touchy about because we all love this story so much: the whole concept of adaptation and fidelity to the books vs. dedication to the best possible TV show. Sansa's arc. Stannis's arc. Cat's arc. Rape and "agency" and how women are portrayed. It's all there! So long as no one else who was in the discussion while I was away from my PC this morning is upset then no, I don't feel bad. I just didn't want people to think I was trying to rile up the topic - sorry that was not my intent but it seems everyone was cool! I guess I'm just always willing to talk about it and re-examine it - not to open old wounds but to try and figure out where we're at as the new season starts and whether or not it was 'worth it' to switch Sansa's story so dramatically different. I personally didn't like the Vale story GRRM had started for her but reserved judgement since obviously we have no idea where he was going with it yet. But that's the point, the show writers do know and we would hope that if her Vale arc was that important they would have stuck to it or at least adapted it differently. They haven't always adapted the story perfectly, granted, Dorne was a hot mess and people have a right to be skeptical about story changes though I'd say 9 times out of 10 they do a great job of adapting it to work. Also, I'm really not a big fan of hyper feminism. It's what got me suspended (temp) from westeros.org afterall so I'm clearly a woman who is willing to be controversial. I try to be respectful about it and those who feel very strongly about how women are portrayed in media because I do believe there's still a lot of inequality issues we're working at in all areas of society but using GoT as a platform for it really never worked much for me because I really believe George is an excellent writer of women's character, both good and bad. Look at how powerful he has made some of them in the story - it's hard for me to argue sexism or misogyny in a story where women are powerful fighters, politicians, priestesses and leaders. Those things did not exist for women in the real world medieval times. Westeros/Essos is a fantasy and I prefer to leave real life society issues at the door when I am enjoying this world. BUT ... this discussion was awesome examining all sides of the issue with Sansa and the plot moving forward. I appreciate everyone who is discussing it and giving their best points and counter points. This is how we stay different from other groups and I respect it. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 17:03:47 GMT
Agreement all around! Except I think LF will find ways to wriggle out of this one. I think he has the potential to be the last villain taken down; at the very least, the last human villain taken down. Maybe what he does and does not know will be revealed eventually. And shock us all over again. *shrugs* I hope you don't feel bad for bringing this up. It's just that this argument has all the elements that we get touchy about because we all love this story so much: the whole concept of adaptation and fidelity to the books vs. dedication to the best possible TV show. Sansa's arc. Stannis's arc. Cat's arc. Rape and "agency" and how women are portrayed. It's all there! So long as no one else who was in the discussion while I was away from my PC this morning is upset then no, I don't feel bad. I just didn't want people to think I was trying to rile up the topic - sorry that was not my intent but it seems everyone was cool! I guess I'm just always willing to talk about it and re-examine it - not to open old wounds but to try and figure out where we're at as the new season starts and whether or not it was 'worth it' to switch Sansa's story so dramatically different. I personally didn't like the Vale story GRRM had started for her but reserved judgement since obviously we have no idea where he was going with it yet. But that's the point, the show writers do know and we would hope that if her Vale arc was that important they would have stuck to it or at least adapted it differently. They haven't always adapted the story perfectly, granted, Dorne was a hot mess and people have a right to be skeptical about story changes though I'd say 9 times out of 10 they do a great job of adapting it to work. Also, I'm really not a big fan of hyper feminism. It's what got me suspended (temp) from westeros.org afterall so I'm clearly a woman who is willing to be controversial. I try to be respectful about it and those who feel very strongly about how women are portrayed in media because I do believe there's still a lot of inequality issues we're working at in all areas of society but using GoT as a platform for it really never worked much for me because I really believe George is an excellent writer of women's character, both good and bad. Look at how powerful he has made some of them in the story - it's hard for me to argue sexism or misogyny in a story where women are powerful fighters, politicians, priestesses and leaders. Those things did not exist for women in the real world medieval times. Westeros/Essos is a fantasy and I prefer to leave real life society issues at the door when I am enjoying this world. BUT ... this discussion was awesome examining all sides of the issue with Sansa and the plot moving forward. I appreciate everyone who are discussing it and giving their best points and counter points. This is how we stay different from other groups and I respect it. @envie it's on me. I get riled up about those two things I wrote about in previous post. I listed stuff that I have problems with in this storyline, I mean really I was fine with it, somewhat as the season was airing but then it was over and Sansa's final scenes were not a pay off. Even if it happens now for me it is too late and it was all for nothing. But at least thanks to this talk that followed I have ...well still hate the storyline but I hate it about 1% less than before |
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Grumpkin
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 17:07:42 GMT
I don't think those things are wounds. This is just a TV show, an entertainment. Every person has its own opinion. I think it is great that we are able to discuss this in this way, wuthout insults and stupid jokes, but like an adults.
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 17:09:03 GMT
I don't think those things are wounds. This is just a TV show, an entertainment. Every person has its own opinion. I think it is great that we are able to discuss this in this way, wuthout insults and stupid jokes, but like an adults.[/b] Most here can. I cannot but at least I limited myself to 2 storylines I go She-Hulk over so I'm making progress here, people. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 17:17:03 GMT
So long as no one else who was in the discussion while I was away from my PC this morning is upset then no, I don't feel bad. I just didn't want people to think I was trying to rile up the topic - sorry that was not my intent but it seems everyone was cool! I guess I'm just always willing to talk about it and re-examine it - not to open old wounds but to try and figure out where we're at as the new season starts and whether or not it was 'worth it' to switch Sansa's story so dramatically different. I personally didn't like the Vale story GRRM had started for her but reserved judgement since obviously we have no idea where he was going with it yet. But that's the point, the show writers do know and we would hope that if her Vale arc was that important they would have stuck to it or at least adapted it differently. They haven't always adapted the story perfectly, granted, Dorne was a hot mess and people have a right to be skeptical about story changes though I'd say 9 times out of 10 they do a great job of adapting it to work. Also, I'm really not a big fan of hyper feminism. It's what got me suspended (temp) from westeros.org afterall so I'm clearly a woman who is willing to be controversial. I try to be respectful about it and those who feel very strongly about how women are portrayed in media because I do believe there's still a lot of inequality issues we're working at in all areas of society but using GoT as a platform for it really never worked much for me because I really believe George is an excellent writer of women's character, both good and bad. Look at how powerful he has made some of them in the story - it's hard for me to argue sexism or misogyny in a story where women are powerful fighters, politicians, priestesses and leaders. Those things did not exist for women in the real world medieval times. Westeros/Essos is a fantasy and I prefer to leave real life society issues at the door when I am enjoying this world. BUT ... this discussion was awesome examining all sides of the issue with Sansa and the plot moving forward. I appreciate everyone who are discussing it and giving their best points and counter points. This is how we stay different from other groups and I respect it. @envie it's on me. I get riled up about those two things I wrote about in previous post. I listed stuff that I have problems with in this storyline, I mean really I was fine with it, somewhat as the season was airing but then it was over and Sansa's final scenes were not a pay off. Even if it happens now for me it is too late and it was all for nothing. But at least thanks to this talk that followed I have ...well still hate the storyline but I hate it about 1% less than before I get you on that, I really do! I didn't know if it would be a good payoff and I was horrified when the leaks started happening that Sansa was going to Winterfell and the implications of that with Ramsay. I didn't want to believe it. Surely they wouldn't totally obliterate what's left of her character, right? But then it ended up working for me. No, not what Ramsay did to Sansa, that's still horrible. It's horrible what Ramsay did to Jeyne Poole... worse in fact in the book - but I felt the show writers handled it beautifully all things considered which is why I praised it in my re-watch. It could have been SO much worse and an absolute failure. They took a big risk doing what they did. It's a gamble that won't pay off until this season is my guess. They planned this out long ago from the start and I'm sure it was hotly debated long before any of us ever knew it was even going to exist. It's ok to be riled up about it - we're all discussing it as intellectuals discussing a controversial topic that's always heated whenever it's put in entertainment. Rape is one of the worst things a person can do to another and our society still struggles with it every single day - men, women and children are raped and it's horrific. Should we never portray it in movies and shows? I think it has to be there - it has to be addressed as equally as other things we humans need to fix. We need to stop killing one another and discriminating against others for race and sex and religion (or non religion) - but that's probably never going to happen in our lifetimes. And so we keep pushing on the bruise to see if it still hurts by putting it in songs, putting it in movies and books and everywhere else because it's painful and we need to heal from it but can't. We feel helpless to fix it. As Brienne said ... there's nothing more hateful than failing to protect the ones you love. Appreciate y'all!  |
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mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 17:22:30 GMT
It is ok to be passionate. I understand every position in this discussion, really, because before S5 I was against Sansa's marriage with Ramsay. I thought that would victimize her again. And it did, but I surprisingly liked it because there were some greater things that I just can't ignore. I agree that that storyline didn't have strong pay off. It was just along set-up. She learned about Rickon and Bran and nothing happened with that in S5. We find out that Walda is pregnant and nothing happened with that in S5. We knew that Brienne is there to help Sansa and nothing happened there last season. Sansa found out about Jon and nothing happened with that. They build up her antagonism with Ramsay and nothing happened there. There are more examples. But I think the Northern storyline will be great for someone who will start watching this show after S6. I think then, with S5 and S6 combined it will be really great and powerful. They just split it in 2. And that's why I'm against any more spliting for AFFC and ADWD. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 17:26:46 GMT
I don't think those things are wounds. This is just a TV show, an entertainment. Every person has its own opinion. I think it is great that we are able to discuss this in this way, wuthout insults and stupid jokes, but like an adults.[/b] Most here can. I cannot but at least I limited myself to 2 storylines I go She-Hulk over so I'm making progress here, people.[/quote]  |
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He just saw 1x04 and he says he loves the show.
Upon carefully reading all the comments (and giving a lot of 'likes') I'd like to think after all this time we are able to discuss it much more intellectually now. I certainly didn't mean to open old wounds on this touchy subject of Sansa's massive character/story changes done in Season 5. 
