mau
Grumpkin
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 13:12:53 GMT
The point is, there is no antagonism between Sansa and the Boltons in the books. She doesn't care for them. She doesn't blame them for anything. And that was the case with the show as well, before S5. Tywin killed Cat and Robb, Jaime almost killed Bran. I don't see that anyone suggested a war between Sansa and them. Ever. Because there is no build up to that. Didnt Boltons betray Robb? Helped with RW? Stab him in the heart? I think that constitutes antagonism And so did Tywin. But she doesn't care for them. There is no antagonism between them in the books or the show before S5.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:12:56 GMT
Yeah, but I think he's planning to take down the Lannisters. I think he's telling Cersei the Boltons have Sansa to make them go to war, and he's planning to be the man left standing when it's all over. With Sansa as his wife, and him in charge of the north, and perhaps the entire realm. I know. But I think LF has been established to be gambler and I think what mattered to him was that Sansa is still alive when he comes back, not that she was well. I need LF to bite the dust next season. I agree with this. I still think he'll be at least mildly bothered to learn that Ramsay has been raping her. Maybe I'm giving that little fucker too much credit.
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Post by Basil on Apr 22, 2016 13:14:21 GMT
This isn't to say George can't turn it around and make it a vastly more satisfying story. But I'm not talking could, I'm comparing what's already happened during the equivalent time-period between books and show. It's disappointing that this point of view annoys you.I'm sorry you feel that way. I didn't mean any disrespect. Maybe what I said came out wrong, I apologize. The same way you guys are very protective of the show, I'm protective of the books, I'm sorry if what I said offended anyone.
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 22, 2016 13:15:56 GMT
So the heartbreak over losing one's mother and brother is measured by...location? Or more accurately geographical proximity to savage slaughter? The point is, there is no antagonism between Sansa and the Boltons in the books. She doesn't care for them. She doesn't blame them for anything. And that was the case with the show as well, before S5. Tywin killed Cat and Robb, Jaime almost killed Bran. I don't see that anyone suggested a war between Sansa and them. Ever. Because there is no build up to that. Well, to be fair she doesn't know it was Jaime who tossed Bran out a window and what is she going to do against Tywin when she's married to a Lannister herself? Her hate for the Boltons, IMO would've been stronger anyways even without her going there because they were her father's bannermen. But Sansa has never been one to be on a vengeance kick in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:17:21 GMT
I know. But I think LF has been established to be gambler and I think what mattered to him was that Sansa is still alive when he comes back, not that she was well. I need LF to bite the dust next season. I agree with this. I still think he'll be at least mildly bothered to learn that Ramsay has been raping her. Maybe I'm giving that little fucker too much credit. I think this is going to be something that will remain ambiguous until the end of the story. He will probably tell Sansa how sorry he is if he sees her again, but can we believe him? The show (and books, too, I think) will never give a definitive answer to that. He loved Cat, but the RW still happened. Did he know about it?
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 13:18:17 GMT
Didnt Boltons betray Robb? Helped with RW? Stab him in the heart? I think that constitutes antagonism And so did Tywin. But she doesn't care for them. There is no antagonism between them in the books or the show before S5. Man, what if Ramsay doesnt rape Jon before Snowbowl. Jon wont have any cause to fight him.
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mau
Grumpkin
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 13:18:29 GMT
She wasn't. And that's the reason why she needs to be pushed in that direction.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:19:18 GMT
I agree with this. I still think he'll be at least mildly bothered to learn that Ramsay has been raping her. Maybe I'm giving that little fucker too much credit. I think this is going to be something that will remain ambiguous until the end of the story. He will probably tell Sansa how sorry he is if he sees her again, but can we believe him? The show (and books, too, I think) will never give a definitive answer to that. He loved Cat, but the RW still happened. Did he know about it? Yeah, it's a mystery. In the books, Cat wasn't supposed to die, though.
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 22, 2016 13:19:39 GMT
I know. But I think LF has been established to be gambler and I think what mattered to him was that Sansa is still alive when he comes back, not that she was well. I need LF to bite the dust next season. I agree with this. I still think he'll be at least mildly bothered to learn that Ramsay has been raping her. Maybe I'm giving that little fucker too much credit. I go back and forth with Littlefinger in this aspect too. I'm with you that I think his end game means having Sansa as his wife to fill out his Cat fantasies, but what I can't figure out is if he was lying about not knowing anything about Ramsay. Because then he's an even bigger piece of shit.
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mau
Grumpkin
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 13:23:33 GMT
Man, what if Ramsay doesnt rape Jon before Snowbowl. Jon wont have any cause to fight him. He won't, but they will build that with Sansa and PL. Sansa never mentioned the Boltons before S5. And she thought she would never see WF again. She thought that their family was gone. She didn't have a reason to fight, and she never showed any ambition to take the North. Without her family, WF means nothing to her. But after everything that happened in S5 it will be logical to have Sansa we will have in S6.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:24:47 GMT
And so did Tywin. But she doesn't care for them. There is no antagonism between them in the books or the show before S5. Man, what if Ramsay doesnt rape Jon before Snowbowl. Jon wont have any cause to fight him. I think what Mau is arguing is that the audience needed to see Sansa in direct conflict with the Boltons in order for there to be sufficient narrative tension for her to be part of their demise instead of some other Stark or someone else. It didn't have to be rape that made her hate them, it could have been something else. But it makes sense that the Boltons would want to marry the heir to the north, and it makes sense that LF would see this as an opportunity. And if they get married, Ramsay is going to do something horrific to her. That is in character for him.
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Post by breakfest on Apr 22, 2016 13:27:23 GMT
This isn't to say George can't turn it around and make it a vastly more satisfying story. But I'm not talking could, I'm comparing what's already happened during the equivalent time-period between books and show. It's disappointing that this point of view annoys you.I'm sorry you feel that way. I didn't mean any disrespect. Maybe what I said came out wrong, I apologize. The same way you guys are very protective of the show, I'm protective of the books, I'm sorry if what I said offended anyone. Oh it's fine, no apology needed. I'm more protective of my opinions than the show itself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:29:32 GMT
I'm ok with Sansa's S5 story. It was obviously hard to watch, because she is one of my favourite characters, but I liked how it was done. However, saying that she needed to get raped or be treated poorly in order to give her a reason to rally the North is problematic. To me it makes much more sense if she shows her strength despite of what happened to her instead of because of what happened to her. It's about being "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (the title of 506) despite the bad things that happened to her instead of being all "now I'm so much stronger than before, look at me!"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:34:32 GMT
Man, what if Ramsay doesnt rape Jon before Snowbowl. Jon wont have any cause to fight him. I think what Mau is arguing is that the audience needed to see Sansa in direct conflict with the Boltons in order for there to be sufficient narrative tension for her to be part of their demise instead of some other Stark or someone else. It didn't have to be rape that made her hate them, it could have been something else. But it makes sense that the Boltons would want to marry the heir to the north, and it makes sense that LF would see this as an opportunity. And if they get married, Ramsay is going to do something horrific to her. That is in character for him. ...but that actually makes a lot of sense, too.
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mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 13:36:53 GMT
I'm ok with Sansa's S5 story. It was obviously hard to watch, because she is one of my favourite characters, but I liked how it was done. However, saying that she needed to get raped in order to give her a reason to rally the North is problematic. To me it makes much more sense if she shows her strength despite of what happened to her instead of because of what happened to her. It's about being "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (the title of 506) despite the bad things that happened to her instead of being all "now I'm so much stronger than before, look at me!" I never said that she needed to be raped, I said that if they want Sansa to play a role in the downfall of the Boltons, then they must become an antagonist in her storyline. There's absolutely no tension between them before S5. She didn't care for them, they didn't care for her. She didn't care for the North before S5. Politically. They couldn't just put her against them in S6 out of nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 13:39:35 GMT
I'm ok with Sansa's S5 story. It was obviously hard to watch, because she is one of my favourite characters, but I liked how it was done. However, saying that she needed to get raped in order to give her a reason to rally the North is problematic. To me it makes much more sense if she shows her strength despite of what happened to her instead of because of what happened to her. It's about being "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" (the title of 506) despite the bad things that happened to her instead of being all "now I'm so much stronger than before, look at me!" I never said that she needed to be raped, I said that if they want Sansa to play a role in the downfall of the Boltons, then they must become an antagonist in her storyline. There's absolutely no tension between them before S5. She didn't care for them, they didn't care for her. She didn't care for the North before S5. Politically. They couldn't just put her against them in S6 out of nowhere. I'm sorry, I was not trying to put words into your mouth. I was not really adressing you as much as thinking out loud. I've seen this argument all over the internet and it has always bothered me.
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2016 13:49:36 GMT
Man, what if Ramsay doesnt rape Jon before Snowbowl. Jon wont have any cause to fight him. I think what Mau is arguing is that the audience needed to see Sansa in direct conflict with the Boltons in order for there to be sufficient narrative tension for her to be part of their demise instead of some other Stark or someone else. It didn't have to be rape that made her hate them, it could have been something else. But it makes sense that the Boltons would want to marry the heir to the north, and it makes sense that LF would see this as an opportunity. And if they get married, Ramsay is going to do something horrific to her. That is in character for him. I feel confident less people would question her going agsinst boltons after being in vale in s4 than are now questioning her marrying ramsay
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on Apr 22, 2016 13:59:30 GMT
Euron's kingsmoot, promise to take over Westeros. Deepwood Motte, Stannis rallies the northerners, The faith imprisons Cersei, Tyrion arrives in Mereen. More time to build stories + more well built conclusions + more anticipation You really think that Euron's promise would be a great way to end S5? That was just a set up. It's not the culmination of the story. And he is a new character. The faith imprisons Cersei? And then you have only one big scene after that (S5E10). You would put WoS in S6E1? The whole season was building up to that point and you would just cut it and move it to the next year? Tyrion arrives in Mereen? And then what? Where you would put Daznak? In E9 of S6? You think his arrival in Meeren is a good culmination of his story? What about Jon and Dany? The Boltons. Arya. Dorne? No. I think that S5 was the best way you could do those storylines. Ok - Jon is still at castle black as the new LC, however things are difficult, as always. We know the wildlings are still out there, much like in the books. Some accept the offer to live peacefully as citizens of westeros in the Gift, but many remain at large. The lord at the shadow tower reports that there are men gathering across the boneway, led by the weeper, like in the books, and others at Hardhome. Tormund reminds Jon what is out there. The more Wildlings die, the more Wights they will face. Jon talks to Mel, who is at the Wall, not with Stannis, for advice. She tells him that she sees something coming. Her last words are, Winter is coming, and the night comes with it. Which are like, 2 catch phrases in one. Cool right? Plus the long night as well. And the Nights King. Who we see in a scene earlier in the series attack a bunch of wildlings, reminding us that he is the bad guy - The Boltons rule winterfell. They know Stannis is coming, but Roose says that the northernlords know who rules the north now that the wolves are dead. The final scene for the boltons, stood on the walls of winterfell. Roose tells Ramsay that Ned Starks bastard is the Lord Commander of the nights watch. He also says to Ramsay that there are men in the watch who won't bow to a bastard, but who? (we know who, really though don't we). Ramsay smiles as Roose says all there enemies will fall, and the north will be theirs. - Stannis liberates Deepwood Motte. Final scene of the series is him with his generals and Northern allies. One southerner general says a march is perilous as winter is coming. A badass clansman we know from the books as Hugo Wull says he would rather his people die fighting the Boltons than starving and it will be his last winter. Then he says he wants to die with the boltons blood on his lips. The northerners cheer. Davos asks Stannis what he thinks. Stannis tells them they march, on to Winterfell. - Arya is still in her book storyline as of S5's ending. But she is not blind just yet. She has only now saw the room of faces for the first time. The faceless man asks if she still wants to be a part of all this, she says yes. - Walk of shame would be mid series. If we have Jaime in Dorne, she should meet him in ep 2. He tells her Myrcella is dead. Cersei decides to repent. Jaime is still leaving her for the Riverlands though. Jaime isn't a "good" guy. He never was. He knows what Cersei has done, even though he has been accomplice to a lot of it. Kevan tells him that she is in their hands (the small council), and Tommen needs him leading at Riverrun, thus reintroducing the Freys and Tullys. WoS doesnt have to be penultimate. The trial/CLEGNEBOWL should be the penultimate for Cersei. - Euron is introduced mid series. It makes no less sense than waiting 2 years to reintroduce and kill Balon. It also gives Yara a reason to leave and be at Deepwood Motte if that is needed. It would introduce a new threat for S6, remind people the greyjoys are still somewhat of a power player and have a character who has sinister motives and goals show up who isn't a bolton, as they are the only badass badguys left at this point. Littlefinger isn't a badass guys. Sorry. - Tyrion arriving in Mereen as a penultimate? Of course. It's a meeting between 2 of your major characters, how is that not a big moment. As for Dany, there is enough going on in Mereen to make for a series, between the harpies, the masters and the slaves. Give Dany a little darker side. They played with it a little in S5 already. But have her be little more stern in administering justice, at Daario's suggestion, and build Selmy as the positive influence, sying "don't become your father", and delivering Aery II was a nut truth lessons, who ultimately wins. That way, in S6 when he dies, Dany can be way more attatched to him than just "he knew my brother, I liked him" - Dorne would be far better if the sandsnakes were built as a group trying to rally Dorne against the seemingly placid Dorran. However, in a mirroring scene of Ned's fall, Ellaria is betrayed by the people she rallied, who were all along loyal to the prince, trying to root out Ellaria. A sand snake dies in the fight, meaning they now, really hate Doran. Tension. Ellaria still kills Myrcella, but with a poisoned tip on a piece of jewelry or something and not poisonous kisses. Same end result, but more intimidating characters + More intelligent Doran + Areo Hotah actually kills someone. A sandsnake, with his axe. Jaime and Bronn are also there too. But they aren't idiots, and don't try stealing Myrcella from a heavily defended palace, and neither do the sandsnakes. People appear to be intelligent in this instance. - Sansa's story, can still happen as in S5, so can her escape. That way, her meeting with Stannis can happen, same as Jeyne's in the book. Mybe she meets with Brienne? Who knows...
This is my idea. Not perfect. But allows time for stories and characters to grow, intoduce new characters to replace dead ones, make them seem important and keep some consistency between the stories.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2016 14:11:10 GMT
I don't think any of it happened of her own volition, and I don't think the show makes it seem that it did. I think she went along with it because she had no other option. She put all her eggs in the Littlefinger basket, expecting him to protect her. He made her think he'd help her get revenge on the Boltons through the marriage. Honestly, the thing that bothers me most about her plot in the north isn't how Sansa behaved. I felt that was all in character. It was how Littlefinger left her there with the Boltons without making sure he knew what the deal was with Ramsay. While I believe LF doesn't truly care about Sansa more than getting ahead, I don't think he'd have wanted to see her treated the way she's been treated. She could have stayed in Vale instead of driving off with a guy who killed her aunt The aunt that was about to throw her out the Moon Door... LF is the devil she knows. I can understand why she would want to stay with him.
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mau
Grumpkin
Haters Gonna Hate
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Post by mau on Apr 22, 2016 14:19:21 GMT
I'm sorry. But I disagree. You sugestion for Jon doesn't have an ending at all. It will be like ending S5 with Kill the Boy.
Basically, nothing happens.
The same applies to the Bolton's. That was their scene from E5, not something you could end a season with.
You would end Dany's and Tyrion's storyline with E8? And then what? Daznak will open S6? Daznak is a logical culmination of her storyline in S5, not something to open S6.
Walk of shame in mid-season?
Sorry. But I really disagree with everything you said. You would make S5 without any culmination or exciting moment. And many people already thought that S5 was slow.
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