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Post by associatemaester on May 18, 2015 14:06:12 GMT
God knows I have the reputation of being a "show apologist" and "D&D lover," but that scene was absolutely not necessary. It was the consequence of a narrative choice that they'd apparently been planning since season 2. The only reason the rape "was necessary" is because the show runners made it a driving part of Sansa's plot. Hardly anything in this story is necessary when we put it that way. Was it necessary to have Oberyn's head explode? He could have died offscreen in a bloodless edit and the same point would have been made. There isn't a single rape scene in a tv show I can think of that hasn't been accused of being exploitative or unnecessary by most people. Frankly, we still don't have really know what the consequences of this scene are, it seems early to me to be saying it wasn't necessary. Because most often those people have a point. |
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 18, 2015 14:06:33 GMT
Well, at least George didn't write that scene - I imagine it would have been a whole lot worse than what we got
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 18, 2015 14:09:03 GMT
And of course, the rape happened in Winterfell. They have simultaneously defiled Winterfell and destroyed Sansa's (and the viewer's) romanticised image of the home of House Stark, the place Sansa paid tribute to in Book 3 by building a snow castle. It's just the fort of the Boltons now, nothing more, where Ramsay violently took Sansa's maidenhood. Great work, guys! But hey, Ramsay is kinda funny in a weird way, right? So it's all good, I guess ... Well, Jeyne Poole grew up in Winterfell as well, and she was treated worse |
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Post by King Tommen on May 18, 2015 14:09:35 GMT
I'm curious if people honestly don't think the show will allow the Starks to get revenge. I mean, it's not happening immediately but obviously that's where the story's going.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 14:09:56 GMT
It's about both of them. Both are victims. Now we'll see whether the victims band together and overthrow their tormentors. Yes. But I think of Winterfell arc more as a Theon's and Boltons story arc than Sansa's. |
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 18, 2015 14:12:13 GMT
I'm curious if people honestly don't think the show will allow the Starks to get revenge. I mean, it's not happening immediately but obviously that's where the story's going. This. The episode finished just over 12 hours ago and some people are already saying that there's no chance for vengeance |
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sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
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Post by sj4iy on May 18, 2015 14:13:13 GMT
David and Dan, man, they really value the shock factor of any given event more than anything else. And they freaking love their villainous characters. It's enough, guys. Bad things happen in the books as well but, man ... most of the time there is some reason behind it, something that actually progresses the story or leads to character developement. They killed Selmy for the sake of killing a character, Game of Thrones is turning into The Walking Dead, in that regard. Stop freaking torturing the 'good guys', let's have something 'good' happen to House Stark for a change, alright? And they have gotten rid of Stoneheart, the one character who could provide us with at least a little bit of satisfaction and retribution. I wouldn't presume to know what D&D value or love. I don't know the men. And Stoneheart was in no way satisfying to me...just a dehumanized and blindly vengeful caricature of a character I actually liked. I would get much, much more satisfaction out of the living getting vengeance than a corpse. |
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sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
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Post by sj4iy on May 18, 2015 14:14:18 GMT
I'm curious if people honestly don't think the show will allow the Starks to get revenge. I mean, it's not happening immediately but obviously that's where the story's going. This. The episode finished just over 12 hours ago and some people are already saying that there's no chance for vengeance We have two and a half seasons left (at least)...do people honestly think there's not enough time? |
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sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
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Post by sj4iy on May 18, 2015 14:15:21 GMT
It's about both of them. Both are victims. Now we'll see whether the victims band together and overthrow their tormentors. Yes. But I think of Winterfell arc more as a Theon's and Boltons story arc than Sansa's. Probably because that's how it was in the books. But now it's changed  |
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 18, 2015 14:16:43 GMT
David and Dan, man, they really value the shock factor of any given event more than anything else. And they freaking love their villainous characters. It's enough, guys. Bad things happen in the books as well but, man ... most of the time there is some reason behind it, something that actually progresses the story or leads to character developement. They killed Selmy for the sake of killing a character, Game of Thrones is turning into The Walking Dead, in that regard. Stop freaking torturing the 'good guys', let's have something 'good' happen to House Stark for a change, alright? And they have gotten rid of Stoneheart, the one character who could provide us with at least a little bit of satisfaction and retribution. I wouldn't presume to know what D&D value or love. I don't know the men. And Stoneheart was in no way satisfying to me...just a dehumanized and blindly vengeful caricature of a character I actually liked. I would get much, much more satisfaction out of the living getting vengeance than a corpse. Don't let sati see that or there'll be trouble!  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 14:17:33 GMT
What a lot of waffle, like a true politician  Although I understand he probably doesn't want to speak his true opinion for want of either being lambasted by fans for thinking the change is good or for publicly criticising D&D. |
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Post by day dreamer on May 18, 2015 14:18:35 GMT
It's about both of them. Both are victims. Now we'll see whether the victims band together and overthrow their tormentors. Yes. But I think of Winterfell arc more as a Theon's and Boltons story arc than Sansa's. It's definitely about Theon in the books, but in the show I feel it was about he and Sansa equally. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 18, 2015 14:18:40 GMT
On the show, the Winterfell arc is being told mostly through Sansa's POV. There's the occasional drop in with the Boltons and even less with Theon but I'd say it's 75% Sansa's story to this point.
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Quoth
Sweet Summer Child
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Post by Quoth on May 18, 2015 14:20:31 GMT
My thoughts... Very hard scene to watch. Could have easily been much worse. If it followed the book more closely, Ramsey would have commanded Reek to "prepare her for me". Bad enough Sansa has to have another man watch. Worse that it was Theon. Worse still if Theon was a participant. Imagine how that would have been for Sansa!
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Post by morgantayler on May 18, 2015 15:25:50 GMT
I know we all give James Hibberd flak for his GOT content but I'm glad he put this in his recap after seeing commenters debate about whether or not it was rape (which it clearly was).
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sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
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Post by sj4iy on May 18, 2015 15:28:39 GMT
She was raped. I don't see how there's any debate. Marital rape is still rape.
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Post by morgantayler on May 18, 2015 15:32:03 GMT
She was raped. I don't see how there's any debate. Marital rape is still rape. I'm completely agree. It's insane that some people don't think it is. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 15:34:53 GMT
A lot of people just don't have any real understanding of what rape is. Blame it on stupidity, education, whatever. To them, unless it's some thug in an alleyway it isn't rape,.
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Post by Admin on May 18, 2015 16:29:45 GMT
I don't see why Cogman should have to answer the insane trolls and incoherent ranting he's bound to face on twitter after this episode. Because when you have a character who is not raped in the books raped in the show and you bring rape to screen you better have a damn good reason to do that. So Cogman doesn't have to answer "sane trolls and incoherent ranting" but concerns of bringing something like this into the script in the first place. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 18, 2015 16:36:39 GMT
I don't see why Cogman should have to answer the insane trolls and incoherent ranting he's bound to face on twitter after this episode. Because when you have a character who is not raped in the books raped in the show and you bring rape to screen you better have a damn good reason to do that. So Cogman doesn't have to answer "sane trolls and incoherent ranting" but concerns of bringing something like this into the script in the first place. He gave an interview where he explained the reasoning. He doesn't have to engage with every fan on twitter as well. Not to mention that for the most part, no one trying to reach him through twitter is up for any kind of measured debate. It's rage turned up to 11. Why would you bother responding to those kind of people? |
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Although I understand he probably doesn't want to speak his true opinion for want of either being lambasted by fans for thinking the change is good or for publicly criticising D&D. 
