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Post by Singer of Death on Aug 30, 2017 0:46:32 GMT
Gave this an 8.
-The scenes with the ending, The Hound and Brienne, Tyrion and Cersei, Sansa and Arya, and Theon are the highlights for me.
-It's refreshing that the pacing in this episode is more steady than the previous (especially the last episode) where it was pretty rushed.
-how Littlefinger was executed didn't so well for me. I don't mind him dying off as a coward, but something about it feels underwhelmed given the Winterfell arc was handled and concluded to this
-not buying into boatsex scene
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 30, 2017 14:27:02 GMT
So there was a scene where Sansa goes to visit Bran before the Littlefinger execution. She tells him she needs his help. It got cut. Ugh.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 30, 2017 14:35:05 GMT
It seems, this season, there's as much important information said off-screen as there was on-screen. The woes of 7 episodes.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 30, 2017 15:00:17 GMT
Random thoughts:
I thought Jaime leaving Cersei now made sense. He should have left much earlier, duh, but it made sense with his character to not leave until now. Up until now, he's pretty much been able to remain loyal to Cersei without dishonoring himself. Rescuing Myrcella, an innocent princess, from certain death was certainly valiant and honorable, if not stupid. Trying to save Queen Margaery from humiliation was very honorable. Sparing an old woman a slow painful death was quite chivalrous. Risking his life to slay the Dragon Queen on an open field was, once again, dumb, but very, very brave. All of these brave, honorable things he did, he did while in service to Cersei.
Cersei's betrayal was the first time he can't be both. There is no way he can remain loyal to Cersei AND be honorable in this situation. He made an oath, he will keep it, end of story. Save for asking him to kill Tyrion, which he swiftly refused, this is the first time Cersei has really asked him to do something dishonorable. This is the first time Cersei is actively demanding that he break an oath.
He used to be able to make it work, being a good guy in service to a bad cause, but he can't anymore. There is no way for him to justify it anymore. In the past, sure, he was still serving (and also banging) the most murderous woman in Westeros, but he still kept his hands relatively clean. He didn't kill anyone who didn't deserve it, he kept his word, he tried to do the right thing in a wrong situation.
As he grew disillusioned with Cersei over time, I think his frustration with her become more and more evident. But finally, he snapped. He couldn't do it anymore. He would do anything for Cersei, as long as he remained honorable. And now, that was impossible. So, he left, and kept his word, to be a true knight.
ok im done now
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 30, 2017 15:17:13 GMT
Random thoughts: I thought Jaime leaving Cersei now made sense. He should have left much earlier, duh, but it made sense with his character to not leave until now. Up until now, he's pretty much been able to remain loyal to Cersei without dishonoring himself. Rescuing Myrcella, an innocent princess, from certain death was certainly valiant and honorable, if not stupid. Trying to save Queen Margaery from humiliation was very honorable. Sparing an old woman a slow painful death was quite chivalrous. Risking his life to slay the Dragon Queen on an open field was, once again, dumb, but very, very brave. All of these brave, honorable things he did, he did while in service to Cersei. Cersei's betrayal was the first time he can't be both. There is no way he can remain loyal to Cersei AND be honorable in this situation. He made an oath, he will keep it, end of story. Save for asking him to kill Tyrion, which he swiftly refused, this is the first time Cersei has really asked him to do something dishonorable. This is the first time Cersei is actively demanding that he break an oath. He used to be able to make it work, being a good guy in service to a bad cause, but he can't anymore. There is no way for him to justify it anymore. In the past, sure, he was still serving (and also banging) the most murderous woman in Westeros, but he still kept his hands relatively clean. He didn't kill anyone who didn't deserve it, he kept his word, he tried to do the right thing in a wrong situation. As he grew disillusioned with Cersei over time, I think his frustration with her become more and more evident. But finally, he snapped. He couldn't do it anymore. He would do anything for Cersei, as long as he remained honorable. And now, that was impossible. So, he left, and kept his word, to be a true knight. ok im done now This video does a really good job of analysing (show)Jaime's character. I like the idea that he's at his worst around Cersei, and at his best when near Brienne. And now we could say that he's fully embraced his Brienne-side. Although this is really more of a rationalisation of an inconsistent character arc, it's pretty convincing. One part I disagree with in this though: I believe Jaime's charge towards Dany was more spurred on by his experiences with the Mad King and not out of love for Cersei |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 30, 2017 22:32:23 GMT
Random thoughts: I thought Jaime leaving Cersei now made sense. He should have left much earlier, duh, but it made sense with his character to not leave until now. Up until now, he's pretty much been able to remain loyal to Cersei without dishonoring himself. Rescuing Myrcella, an innocent princess, from certain death was certainly valiant and honorable, if not stupid. Trying to save Queen Margaery from humiliation was very honorable. Sparing an old woman a slow painful death was quite chivalrous. Risking his life to slay the Dragon Queen on an open field was, once again, dumb, but very, very brave. All of these brave, honorable things he did, he did while in service to Cersei. Cersei's betrayal was the first time he can't be both. There is no way he can remain loyal to Cersei AND be honorable in this situation. He made an oath, he will keep it, end of story. Save for asking him to kill Tyrion, which he swiftly refused, this is the first time Cersei has really asked him to do something dishonorable. This is the first time Cersei is actively demanding that he break an oath. He used to be able to make it work, being a good guy in service to a bad cause, but he can't anymore. There is no way for him to justify it anymore. In the past, sure, he was still serving (and also banging) the most murderous woman in Westeros, but he still kept his hands relatively clean. He didn't kill anyone who didn't deserve it, he kept his word, he tried to do the right thing in a wrong situation. As he grew disillusioned with Cersei over time, I think his frustration with her become more and more evident. But finally, he snapped. He couldn't do it anymore. He would do anything for Cersei, as long as he remained honorable. And now, that was impossible. So, he left, and kept his word, to be a true knight. ok im done now This video does a really good job of analysing (show)Jaime's character. I like the idea that he's at his worst around Cersei, and at his best when near Brienne. And now we could say that he's fully embraced his Brienne-side. Although this is really more of a rationalisation of an inconsistent character arc, it's pretty convincing. One part I disagree with in this though: I believe Jaime's charge towards Dany was more spurred on by his experiences with the Mad King and not out of love for Cersei not "love for Cersei" per se, but more just devotion to faithfully serving someone. it just happens to be Cersei. If that makes sense. He put his life on the line to kill his Queen's enemies, save his men's lives, and make a swift end to the war. And also, yes, he does probably have a grudge against people with the last name Targaryen. This discussion is reminding me of that passage in AFFC where Jaime has a dream where he talks to his mother. He tells her that he became a knight and cersei a queen just like they always wanted, and Joanna simply starts to cry. That's some beautiful shit right there. |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Aug 31, 2017 10:10:21 GMT
So there was a scene where Sansa goes to visit Bran before the Littlefinger execution. She tells him she needs his help. It got cut. Ugh. They really should have kept that in. I get that they wanted a "shocking moment" but it's not really great writing to achieve that "shock" by just failing to show what happened, or even implying that something happened off-screen before the reveal. The way it was shown, we go from "I'ma skin your face and wear your dresses gurl." to "The lone wolf does but the pack survives." without any indication that something happened in the interim to prompt this. Yes, you can piece it together after the fact when Bran starts talking about the specifics of Littlefinger's crimes, and you realise they went through old CCTV footage to indict him, but it does seem like pretty lazy writing to achieve a shock, to me at least. This cut scene you mention would have at least served as an indication beforehand and should have been included. Re: Jaime and Cersei, I think the problem for me was Jaime sticking by her even after the Sept incident at the end of last season. I can understand him leading the Lannister armies and supporting his family in the war - that is, after all, exactly what he does in the books, though without the lingering attachment to Cersei. But sticking by her after she blows up the sept, especially when you consider Aerys...I dunno. It just feels like after that there's nothing I could realistically see turning him against her. YMMV I though, I guess |
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Post by kingeomer on Aug 31, 2017 12:13:11 GMT
So there was a scene where Sansa goes to visit Bran before the Littlefinger execution. She tells him she needs his help. It got cut. Ugh. They really should have kept that in. I get that they wanted a "shocking moment" but it's not really great writing to achieve that "shock" by just failing to show what happened, or even implying that something happened off-screen before the reveal. The way it was shown, we go from "I'ma skin your face and wear your dresses gurl." to "The lone wolf does but the pack survives." without any indication that something happened in the interim to prompt this. Yes, you can piece it together after the fact when Bran starts talking about the specifics of Littlefinger's crimes, and you realise they went through old CCTV footage to indict him, but it does seem like pretty lazy writing to achieve a shock, to me at least. This cut scene you mention would have at least served as an indication beforehand and should have been included. Re: Jaime and Cersei, I think the problem for me was Jaime sticking by her even after the Sept incident at the end of last season. I can understand him leading the Lannister armies and supporting his family in the war - that is, after all, exactly what he does in the books, though without the lingering attachment to Cersei. But sticking by her after she blows up the sept, especially when you consider Aerys...I dunno. It just feels like after that there's nothing I could realistically see turning him against her. YMMV I though, I guess Here is the interview where Issac Hempstead Wright talks about that deleted scene. www.cinemablend.com/television/1697729/game-of-thrones-finale-deleted-scene-would-have-answered-a-big-questionIt seems to me the show wanted to make it a shock, when to me, it didn't need to be. LF's crimes are pretty huge and we needed to see at the least to have him revealed to the Stark girls, especially Sansa, the first time. TheMadQueen, I wish they would have kept that dream of Johanna in the show. It would have been a good scene. About Jaime and when he should have left Cersei, I thought the sept would have done it. Considering the history with Aerys, the innocent people who died there, the Tyrells and the fact that Lancel and Kevan Lannister were also killed. The only thing I can say that his arc has been inconsistent and more serving to the plot then character...but I could also see this him continuing to make justifications for Cersei and why she does what she does until he cannot no more, which leads to his departure. |
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 31, 2017 13:37:36 GMT
They really should have kept that in. I get that they wanted a "shocking moment" but it's not really great writing to achieve that "shock" by just failing to show what happened, or even implying that something happened off-screen before the reveal. The way it was shown, we go from "I'ma skin your face and wear your dresses gurl." to "The lone wolf does but the pack survives." without any indication that something happened in the interim to prompt this. Yes, you can piece it together after the fact when Bran starts talking about the specifics of Littlefinger's crimes, and you realise they went through old CCTV footage to indict him, but it does seem like pretty lazy writing to achieve a shock, to me at least. This cut scene you mention would have at least served as an indication beforehand and should have been included. This could not be more accurate  Even though it was incredibly obvious that they were talking about LF as soon as Arya said "are you sure you want to do this?", it was also very clearly done to create a shock for the audience. Because that scene is cut, it's not clear when Sansa and Arya started to work together. I assume it's after Sansa's scene with LF where he implies Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell, but for something this important I shouldn't be made to assume. These are the main characters of this subplot and I have to guess when they started working together? Not good. That's probably why, for me, LF's death didn't have the impact it should have. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Aug 31, 2017 15:05:25 GMT
No matter what, Bran revealing Littlefinger's treachery just in time for the finale would be poor writing and way too convenient for our heroes, especially in a show that has never played favorites with the protagonists in cliche ways. It was just a poorly handled storyline, pretty much all season, and that one deleted scene wouldn't have saved it, I'm afraid. But yeah, the twist was pointless to me because of how obvious things would play out this season, even if I tried to reserve the hope that the writing wouldn't be playing to such an easy win for the Stark girls. Gillen's performance is the only thing that really saves these scenes, but overall it was just a mess, possibly the weakest arc of season 7 for me.
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Post by Enid on Aug 31, 2017 17:26:28 GMT
So there was a scene where Sansa goes to visit Bran before the Littlefinger execution. She tells him she needs his help. It got cut. Ugh. not only that, she was thinking about killing Arya and went to Bran to know if that was the right thing |
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Post by Basil on Aug 31, 2017 17:39:29 GMT
Yeah, the Winterfell storyline didn't really work for me either. The last two scenes were great, I thought Littlefinger's execution was really well done and the scene between Arya and Sansa on the battlements gave me all the feels, but everything that came before was a mess, imo.
I've heard people say that of course it totally made sense, because Arya was testing Sansa or whatever, but I just don't buy any of that. What exactly was she testing? Without Sansa, Winterfell would still belong to the Boltons, and Arya knows that.
And about that letter, everyone who originally received it, Cat, Robb, Maester Luwin, they all immediately recognized that those were Cersei's words, not Sansa's. She was a kid back then, what exactly was Arya blaming her for? Arya is not a mindless killing machine, nor is she stupid, but she needed to be both these things in order for this conflict to take place. When she accused Sansa of just standing there in her pretty dress during their father's execution, I was like, bitch, Sansa literally fainted, she was screaming her lungs out. No one could have saved Ned at that point. What were you expecting her to do?
The conflict between them felt artificial and unnecessary to me. And if all of it was meant to be just a ploy to trick Littlefinger anyway, I think that makes even less sense to be honest. What would be the point of that? Sansa is already the Lady of Winterfell, she could have had Littlefinger executed the moment she found out about his treachery. Why wait, why pretend that he is actually succeeding in his attempt to drive a wedge between her and Arya? It's not like they managed to collect any actual evidence that way.
I feel like they just wanted to have that 'Oh, Shit' moment at the end, where it looks like Sansa is accusing Arya, but it's actually Petyr, and this was their way to get there. But I don't think it was a well executed storyline, it didn't feel faithful to Arya as a character at all. It was rather disappointing to see such a petty conflict between two sisters who have been through and have lost so much, who have grown so much. Probably one of my least favourite storylines in the entire show, to be honest.
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Post by Basil on Aug 31, 2017 18:10:37 GMT
They didn't show what happened after Tyrion found out about Cersei's pregnancy, and now I've seen people theorise that he has switched sides. That Tyrion will be the one to betray Dany out of love, love for his family (and also guilt over being partially responsible for the death of Cersei's children). I realize that's a veeery tinfoily theory ... but I think I might like it, I don't know. It would be a pretty crazy plot twist for sure.  |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 31, 2017 18:36:43 GMT
They didn't show what happened after Tyrion found out about Cersei's pregnancy, and now I've seen people theorise that he has switched sides. That Tyrion will be the one to betray Dany out of love, love for his family (and also guilt over being partially responsible for the death of Cersei's children). I realize that's a veeery tinfoily theory ... but I think I might like it, I don't know. It would be a pretty crazy plot twist for sure. yeah I saw that. I don't buy it. That would require Tyrion to literally create this master plan betrayal on the spot, which I'm sure he couldn't. Also, Tyrion and Cersei are never gonna work together. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Aug 31, 2017 18:48:08 GMT
We never really talked about Tyrion's expression when Jon and Dany were bumping uglies. It could very well have been guilt. It felt kind of ominous and foreboding.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 31, 2017 19:09:36 GMT
Yeah, the Winterfell storyline didn't really work for me either. The last two scenes were great, I thought Littlefinger's execution was really well done and the scene between Arya and Sansa on the battlements gave me all the feels, but everything that came before was a mess, imo. I've heard people say that of course it totally made sense, because Arya was testing Sansa or whatever, but I just don't buy any of that. What exactly was she testing? Without Sansa, Winterfell would still belong to the Boltons, and Arya knows that. And about that letter, everyone who originally received it, Cat, Robb, Maester Luwin, they all immediately recognized that those were Cersei's words, not Sansa's. She was a kid back then, what exactly was Arya blaming her for? Arya is not a mindless killing machine, nor is she stupid, but she needed to be both these things in order for this conflict to take place. When she accused Sansa of just standing there in her pretty dress during their father's execution, I was like, bitch, Sansa literally fainted, she was screaming her lungs out. No one could have saved Ned at that point. What were you expecting her to do? The conflict between them felt artificial and unnecessary to me. And if all of it was meant to be just a ploy to trick Littlefinger anyway, I think that makes even less sense to be honest. What would be the point of that? Sansa is already the Lady of Winterfell, she could have had Littlefinger executed the moment she found out about his treachery. Why wait, why pretend that he is actually succeeding in his attempt to drive a wedge between her and Arya? It's not like they managed to collect any actual evidence that way. I feel like they just wanted to have that 'Oh, Shit' moment at the end, where it looks like Sansa is accusing Arya, but it's actually Petyr, and this was their way to get there. But I don't think it was a well executed storyline, it didn't feel faithful to Arya as a character at all. It was rather disappointing to see such a petty conflict between two sisters who have been through and have lost so much, who have grown so much. Probably one of my least favourite storylines in the entire show, to be honest. They were relying on the Sansa-Arya conflict from when they were younger to be enough of an explanation for Arya's behaviour. But they took it beyond the suspension of disbelief since Arya fails to use basic common sense. To be honest I've been kinda baffled by Arya's storyline since the end of S4. Or maybe more accurately, up until the point she killed Meryn. I think that was the point the showrunners decided they wanted her to be more of a killing machine so the audience could go "fuck yeah!". Every time she kills someone (Meryn, Walder, all the Freys) she either has a really smug face or walks out like a badass. I thought that the point of her leaving the Faceless Men was that she's not a killing machine, but two episodes later she's suddenly the greatest assassin (and apparently chef) in Westeros. Her scenes with Hot Pie, Nymeria, and even Ed Sheeran/Blackberry Wine Lannister were all about bringing back her humanity, but that's undone by her bizarre behaviour towards Sansa, including threatening to kill her ffs. So yeah, Arya's character arc is a total mystery to me  They didn't show what happened after Tyrion found out about Cersei's pregnancy, and now I've seen people theorise that he has switched sides. That Tyrion will be the one to betray Dany out of love, love for his family (and also guilt over being partially responsible for the death of Cersei's children). I realize that's a veeery tinfoily theory ... but I think I might like it, I don't know. It would be a pretty crazy plot twist for sure. This is some Alex Jones level shit |
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 31, 2017 19:12:38 GMT
We never really talked about Tyrion's expression when Jon and Dany were bumping uglies. It could very well have been guilt. It felt kind of ominous and foreboding. I hate that they do these ambiguous shots at the end of the season. Largely because it promotes stuff like "OMG is Sansa going to betray Jon????" but are ultimately either disappointments, or confusing messes (see S7 Winterfell arc) |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Aug 31, 2017 19:33:07 GMT
Sansa could still turn on Jon. The Northern Lord's will be pissed when they discover he bent the knee in the South.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Aug 31, 2017 19:40:59 GMT
Sansa could still turn on Jon. The Northern Lord's will be pissed when they discover he bent the knee in the South. OFFICIAL LEAKED SEASON 8 SCRIPT: Lord Glover: (menacingly) You expect us to follow you now that you've bent the knee to some foreign queen? Jon: Yes. Lord Glover: K. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Aug 31, 2017 19:53:03 GMT
Lord Royce: I think not.
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