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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 2:15:59 GMT
I suppose you're right - even if someone were to dispute the consummation rule, they could just annul it as easily as the Queen (Dany) could pardon his crimes. While he didn't poison Joffrey, he did kill his Father and Shay so there's that slight complication of him returning with Daenerys. She obviously doesn't care since Tywin was the one responsible for her family's murders anyways. Tyrion has done her a favor in getting the ball rolling. Once they arrive, there may not be any Cersei left either and we can assume Kevan and Lancel go too. The Lannisters will become as nearly extinct as Baratheons unless Jaime survives or Tyrion finally has a legit marriage and heir. Somehow I think it would be poetic justice that the one Lannister most despised and mistreated ends up being the Lord of Casterly Rock.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 2:23:01 GMT
Here's another interesting thought with Dany returning to Westeros ... If Jaime survives, what do you think Daenerys would do with him? He killed her Father though she understands why even without the rebellion being a factor, her Father was a madman and had to go. But now everyone involved with that Rebellion is either dead or no longer in power or any real threat to Daenerys and a Targaryen return to Westeros. I suppose Littlefinger is still a problem, and impossible to say what the Northerners will think or how they will respond. That of course depends on what happens with the White Walkers and whether or not Dany and her dragons play a part in repelling them which I suspect they probably do.
But Jaime, and Brienne ... some of the characters like that who were caught in the middle of the war of 5 kings with mixed loyalties and 'quests' so-to-speak. What will they do if Dany takes the throne?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 8:22:37 GMT
I suppose you're right - even if someone were to dispute the consummation rule, they could just annul it as easily as the Queen (Dany) could pardon his crimes. While he didn't poison Joffrey, he did kill his Father and Shay so there's that slight complication of him returning with Daenerys. She obviously doesn't care since Tywin was the one responsible for her family's murders anyways. Tyrion has done her a favor in getting the ball rolling. Once they arrive, there may not be any Cersei left either and we can assume Kevan and Lancel go too. The Lannisters will become as nearly extinct as Baratheons unless Jaime survives or Tyrion finally has a legit marriage and heir. Somehow I think it would be poetic justice that the one Lannister most despised and mistreated ends up being the Lord of Casterly Rock. But even if Jaime and Tyrion BOTH die (highly unlikely IMO) there are still lots of other Lannisters.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 1:57:38 GMT
I've been reading Reddit a bit lately out of boredom since this forum has gotten more quiet in the off-season. There's a lot of theorycraft there that's just nutty but some of the redditors are also active over on ASOIAF forums / westeros.org and oldschool theorists. A few have made new predictions on Dany being Azor Ahai. Just curious what some of you here think of that? I always knew she was a candidate but didn't really think it was that legit or serious. I never have given much thought to it, wondering if the old prophecy would be changed or not even the same for a return of the hero. Here are those theories (most plausible) to refresh: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/TheoriesAnd here's one of my favorite youtuber's with a good summary video of the ideas: Take a look and tell me what you think about Dany's potential and how it might affect her return to Westeros soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 13:56:41 GMT
I've been reading Reddit a bit lately out of boredom since this forum has gotten more quiet in the off-season. There's a lot of theorycraft there that's just nutty but some of the redditors are also active over on ASOIAF forums / westeros.org and oldschool theorists. A few have made new predictions on Dany being Azor Ahai. Just curious what some of you here think of that? I always knew she was a candidate but didn't really think it was that legit or serious. I never have given much thought to it, wondering if the old prophecy would be changed or not even the same for a return of the hero. Here are those theories (most plausible) to refresh: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/TheoriesAnd here's one of my favorite youtuber's with a good summary video of the ideas: Take a look and tell me what you think about Dany's potential and how it might affect her return to Westeros soon. I would say she is part of it. I tend to think that the prophecy will be fulfilled by more than one person and Dany almost certainly has fulfilled most of what we know. I don't think that this is a one true hero story, so having Dany be one of those heroes is not surprising to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 16:52:28 GMT
I would say she is part of it. I tend to think that the prophecy will be fulfilled by more than one person and Dany almost certainly has fulfilled most of what we know. I don't think that this is a one true hero story, so having Dany be one of those heroes is not surprising to me. Yes, I think it's probably most likely a combination of people joining efforts. A lot of people theorize that Jon (if he's in fact a Targaryen) might be seen as a threat to claiming the throne to Dany. But given the greater threat of the Others, I would think they would make better allies than enemies and combining dragons with dragonsteel and all the knowledge of the Night's Watch and the North would be the most beneficial choice. The petty squabbles of the past wars are going to have to be forgotten if men want to make it through Winter. Fortunately Dany has Tyrion advising her now (at least on the show) so I have confidence he'll keep her conqueror ways in line with what needs to be done.
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 18, 2015 15:39:16 GMT
So that interview Emilia gave about S6 being somewhat fast paced, I'm assuming she 100% heads to Westeros this season. Probably not until the middle/end of the season.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2015 21:48:29 GMT
Yeah, that comment got me high hopes for not yet another season in Meereen. Also this whole slow paced beginning in Ep.1-4 removed makes me excited af.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 3:15:51 GMT
Yeah, that comment got me high hopes for not yet another season in Meereen. Also this whole slow paced beginning in Ep.1-4 removed makes me excited af. Me too! The fact that she makes a point to mention it being fast paced from the start off (more like season 4 started then) would help lend some hope to her and Team Dragon leaving Meereen relatively early on in the season or at least by the halfway mark because there's got to be whatever's going to happen with the Dothraki in between there. Honestly I hope that doesn't really go on for long but I have absolutely no idea how that's going to play out. Any guesses what's gong to happen with the Khalasar? I don't know if she goes to Vaes Dothrak or the Dosh Kaleen but I hope not because that's going to take more time. I'm DONE with Essos for both Dany and Arya!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 16:14:23 GMT
More summer boredom help! I've gotten great recommendations from reddit on the best podcasts to listen to while doing my boring QA work. It helps the hours pass while I stare at spreadsheets and cookware websites, blargh. B-| The one I've been listening to the most is Radio Westeros. I like their format style with the radio station theme and the production value is well done. Both Yolkboy and Lady Gwyn are easy to listen to for an hour or two at a time while I'm working. Some people have voices that while funny or excited, grate on my nerves pretty quickly. I like the Radio westeros calm and their readings from the book are generally well done. Here's their site if you're interested: radiowesteros.com/ (they also have their podcasts on iTunes and youtube) Anyways - back to Daenerys. Their recent episode is a focused look at her life and was surprisingly full of stuff I hadn't really ever thought about - such as the theories behind the house with the red door (where it was located) and why she and Viserys were raised there and the implications it has to Westeros ties. It also goes into a lot of detail about her leadership style and the mistakes she makes later on in Meereen. I have new appreciation for the young Queen through that podcast so I really recommend it. One thing that stuck out at me, and I'll tag @moiaf in this because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere on your blog a mention of this - is that in the ongoing theme of Motherhood with Daenerys, not many talk about Dany's reaction to losing Rhaego. It's all overshadowed by the birth of the dragons and since she's told by Mirra Maz Duur she'll never bear any more human children, she seems to turn all her focus to her dragons. But this transition occurred before she even knew Rhaego had died AND before the dragons were hatched. It's one tiny detail that's always intrigued me since I first read GoT ages ago (19 years today it was published!). Dany had fever dreams of her dragons. She called for her eggs, she tried to crawl to them ... she thought of them, not her baby. It's clear they were calling to her at that time ... to me, that indicates they were alive and calling to her. They may have been calling to her long before which is why she started putting them in the brazier and obsessing about them and the blood of the dragon. It may be why she was so strong standing up to her brother and 'tamed' Drogo so easily. Her dragons were already bolstering her confidence and focus from within their eggs. I remember, as a young new Mother myself in reading Game of Thrones, being somewhat sad/upset that Daenerys did not think much or seem to mourn the loss of Rhaego. Here I sat, with a newborn babe in my lap, reading that fateful first book in between the endless rounds of feedings and diaper changes, crying for a 14 year old girl who lost her baby in such a tragic way. I nearly hated Dany back then just for that alone. It's taken re-reads and better understanding of her character with the help of the fan sites, analyses and whatnot for me to understand why Dany did not call out for her baby son when she had lost him and why she cried for her eggs instead. Yes of course it's obvious they were going to become a powerful part of her existence - but she had carried and birthed a baby son and didn't cry for him in her feverish state? The dragons were already fully in possession of Dany's heart and soul and I have to wonder if that's not why Rhaego was born deformed with dragon like wings ... perhaps dragon magic has a sinister side as well? I remember reading that the Targaryens often had miscarriage issues. We attribute that to the incestuous relations they practiced - but maybe it was more to do with the Mothers riding dragons and having a close bond with them that did it instead? This essay doesn't have much to do with Dany returning to Westeros, but I felt like waxing philosophical today after listening to that great Daenerys Radio Westeros podcast. If anyone else would like to theorize more on Daenerys and her future as well as her past - listen to the episode and lets start a discussion!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 16:51:46 GMT
More summer boredom help! I've gotten great recommendations from reddit on the best podcasts to listen to while doing my boring QA work. It helps the hours pass while I stare at spreadsheets and cookware websites, blargh. B-| The one I've been listening to the most is Radio Westeros. I like their format style with the radio station theme and the production value is well done. Both Yolkboy and Lady Gwyn are easy to listen to for an hour or two at a time while I'm working. Some people have voices that while funny or excited, grate on my nerves pretty quickly. I like the Radio westeros calm and their readings from the book are generally well done. Here's their site if you're interested: radiowesteros.com/ (they also have their podcasts on iTunes and youtube) Anyways - back to Daenerys. Their recent episode is a focused look at her life and was surprisingly full of stuff I hadn't really ever thought about - such as the theories behind the house with the red door (where it was located) and why she and Viserys were raised there and the implications it has to Westeros ties. It also goes into a lot of detail about her leadership style and the mistakes she makes later on in Meereen. I have new appreciation for the young Queen through that podcast so I really recommend it. One thing that stuck out at me, and I'll tag @moiaf in this because I'm pretty sure I read somewhere on your blog a mention of this - is that in the ongoing theme of Motherhood with Daenerys, not many talk about Dany's reaction to losing Rhaego. It's all overshadowed by the birth of the dragons and since she's told by Mirra Maz Duur she'll never bear any more human children, she seems to turn all her focus to her dragons. But this transition occurred before she even knew Rhaego had died AND before the dragons were hatched. It's one tiny detail that's always intrigued me since I first read GoT ages ago (19 years today it was published!). Dany had fever dreams of her dragons. She called for her eggs, she tried to crawl to them ... she thought of them, not her baby. It's clear they were calling to her at that time ... to me, that indicates they were alive and calling to her. They may have been calling to her long before which is why she started putting them in the brazier and obsessing about them and the blood of the dragon. It may be why she was so strong standing up to her brother and 'tamed' Drogo so easily. Her dragons were already bolstering her confidence and focus from within their eggs. I remember, as a young new Mother myself in reading Game of Thrones, being somewhat sad/upset that Daenerys did not think much or seem to mourn the loss of Rhaego. Here I sat, with a newborn babe in my lap, reading that fateful first book in between the endless rounds of feedings and diaper changes, crying for a 14 year old girl who lost her baby in such a tragic way. I nearly hated Dany back then just for that alone. It's taken re-reads and better understanding of her character with the help of the fan sites, analyses and whatnot for me to understand why Dany did not call out for her baby son when she had lost him and why she cried for her eggs instead. Yes of course it's obvious they were going to become a powerful part of her existence - but she had carried and birthed a baby son and didn't cry for him in her feverish state? The dragons were already fully in possession of Dany's heart and soul and I have to wonder if that's not why Rhaego was born deformed with dragon like wings ... perhaps dragon magic has a sinister side as well? I remember reading that the Targaryens often had miscarriage issues. We attribute that to the incestuous relations they practiced - but maybe it was more to do with the Mothers riding dragons and having a close bond with them that did it instead? This essay doesn't have much to do with Dany returning to Westeros, but I felt like waxing philosophical today after listening to that great Daenerys Radio Westeros podcast. If anyone else would like to theorize more on Daenerys and her future as well as her past - listen to the episode and lets start a discussion! I've mentioned Dany's fevered dream in a couple of my essays but I've never address it fully. I've been meanining to write an essay about it because it's so rich but haven't gotten around to it. However, going back to your comment about Dany's bonding with the dragons vs her maternal bond with Rhaego I think there is more to it than just her choosing the eggs over the baby. In between the time Jorah takes Dany into the tent where MMD is performing her spell and the time she wakes up asking for her eggs she has her fevered dream. In it she actually see Rhaego and mourns for his death: I think that by the time Dany wakes from her fevered dream she has both mourned her dead son but she has made the transference from her bond to Rhaego to her bond with her dragons. She had already began to bond with her dragons but now that was the only bond remaining to her. If you look at Rhaego's death in her fevered dream, fire pours out of his mouth as if he were a dragon, first he was a man then he was a dragon as dragons are fire made flesh. Like you I first wondered why Dany would not ask for Rhaego first when she woke up but after reading this chapter many, many times I've come to realize that she had dealt with her grief at his loss in a different way, although, it's not the norm she did grieve for him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 17:01:45 GMT
Ah, thank you for that detailed response and pointing out the emphasis on the fevered dreams @moiaf. It's often difficult to interpret what is a person's emotion and what is prophecy or vision from all those dreams characters have in the books! I knew from other readings and discussions that Dany had somehow already resolved (or accepted) Rhaego's death by the time she woke but it's often difficult to remember all the tiny details which support it. I tend to think the power of her dragons was pretty strong by that point as they were urging her onward and yes, definitely bonding with her. It's that 'transference' of bonding as you put it that seemed to make Dany stronger and harder than she was before. Definitely a key critical moment in her transformation.
Had Rhaego lived, her life might be vastly different than it is now (Dothraki centered). It's almost as if he had to die in order for her to bond fully with her dragons and move forward.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 17:12:18 GMT
Ah, thank you for that detailed response and pointing out the emphasis on the fevered dreams @moiaf. It's often difficult to interpret what is a person's emotion and what is prophecy or vision from all those dreams characters have in the books! I knew from other readings and discussions that Dany had somehow already resolved (or accepted) Rhaego's death by the time she woke but it's often difficult to remember all the tiny details which support it. I tend to think the power of her dragons was pretty strong by that point as they were urging her onward and yes, definitely bonding with her. It's that 'transference' of bonding as you put it that seemed to make Dany stronger and harder than she was before. Definitely a key critical moment in her transformation. Had Rhaego lived, her life might be vastly different than it is now (Dothraki centered). It's almost as if he had to die in order for her to bond fully with her dragons and move forward. Absolutely! If you think about it, twice Dany has chosen her dragons over her natural born children. Not on purpose of course but it has happened. Of course the first time was Rhaego but the second time I believe happened at the end of ADWD. She has her miscarriage (I'm almost certain it was a miscarriage) and by the end she has embrace her role as the Mother of Dragons, once again inadvertently choosing her dragons over her natural born children or what could have been her natural born children. A side theory of mine is that as Dany is the child of three, she will once again get pregnant but this time she will make a conscious effort to choose her natural born child over her dragons. Which makes me sad.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 17:24:53 GMT
Ah, thank you for that detailed response and pointing out the emphasis on the fevered dreams @moiaf. It's often difficult to interpret what is a person's emotion and what is prophecy or vision from all those dreams characters have in the books! I knew from other readings and discussions that Dany had somehow already resolved (or accepted) Rhaego's death by the time she woke but it's often difficult to remember all the tiny details which support it. I tend to think the power of her dragons was pretty strong by that point as they were urging her onward and yes, definitely bonding with her. It's that 'transference' of bonding as you put it that seemed to make Dany stronger and harder than she was before. Definitely a key critical moment in her transformation. Had Rhaego lived, her life might be vastly different than it is now (Dothraki centered). It's almost as if he had to die in order for her to bond fully with her dragons and move forward. Absolutely! If you think about it, twice Dany has chosen her dragons over her natural born children. Not on purpose of course but it has happened. Of course the first time was Rhaego but the second time I believe happened at the end of ADWD. She has her miscarriage (I'm almost certain it was a miscarriage) and by the end she has embrace her role as the Mother of Dragons, once again inadvertently choosing her dragons over her natural born children or what could have been her natural born children. A side theory of mine is that as Dany is the child of three, she will once again get pregnant but this time she will make a conscious effort to choose her natural born child over her dragons. Which makes me sad. A Mother sometimes chooses others over her children, and sometimes she chooses her children over others. It will be interesting to see what she does. If you think about it, the "Mhysa" part has already been her choosing the slave-children she's freed over her dragons anyways since she's locked them up because of it and been ignoring them in favor of trying to be Queen of Meereen. That's already something to be sad about. If in the future Dany does get pregnant and actually bear a child, I imagine she will again be torn on her love/devotion to her dragons. The timing has not been right though, in both cases so far. I agree there. She needs to fix the major mistakes she's made in Meereen (and GTFO of there) and reconnect with her dragons again. I tend to think her bond with Viserion and Rhaegal has already been damaged too much by chaining them up for so long. They're free and on their own now, making their lairs in the tops of the pyramids. They'll likely follow her only because of Drogon who has clearly been dominant over them from the start. My guess is, this was done intentionally by GRRM to distance her from the other two and focus on a bond with Drogon so that others can come in and bond with her other two. She can't ride them all so the other riders need a chance. At least that's how I've always rationalized the severance of her bond with the two she's chained up and left behind.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2015 17:47:22 GMT
Absolutely! If you think about it, twice Dany has chosen her dragons over her natural born children. Not on purpose of course but it has happened. Of course the first time was Rhaego but the second time I believe happened at the end of ADWD. She has her miscarriage (I'm almost certain it was a miscarriage) and by the end she has embrace her role as the Mother of Dragons, once again inadvertently choosing her dragons over her natural born children or what could have been her natural born children. A side theory of mine is that as Dany is the child of three, she will once again get pregnant but this time she will make a conscious effort to choose her natural born child over her dragons. Which makes me sad. A Mother sometimes chooses others over her children, and sometimes she chooses her children over others. It will be interesting to see what she does. If you think about it, the "Mhysa" part has already been her choosing the slave-children she's freed over her dragons anyways since she's locked them up because of it and been ignoring them in favor of trying to be Queen of Meereen. That's already something to be sad about. If in the future Dany does get pregnant and actually bear a child, I imagine she will again be torn on her love/devotion to her dragons. The timing has not been right though, in both cases so far. I agree there. She needs to fix the major mistakes she's made in Meereen (and GTFO of there) and reconnect with her dragons again. I tend to think her bond with Viserion and Rhaegal has already been damaged too much by chaining them up for so long. They're free and on their own now, making their lairs in the tops of the pyramids. They'll likely follow her only because of Drogon who has clearly been dominant over them from the start. My guess is, this was done intentionally by GRRM to distance her from the other two and focus on a bond with Drogon so that others can come in and bond with her other two. She can't ride them all so the other riders need a chance. At least that's how I've always rationalized the severance of her bond with the two she's chained up and left behind. I think she'll always have some sort of bond with them but I agree with you that her bond with them has been damaged by her chaining them. But as you say, she has her bond with the biggest and baddest dragon around so, alpha dragon leads even if the other two are resentful towards mommy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:49:51 GMT
Now that we'll get 8 seasons, I think Dany's Westeros landing will be in the later half of the season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:21:39 GMT
Now that we'll get 8 seasons, I think Dany's Westeros landing will be in the later half of the season. I think more than the number of seasons being the main factor, it's likely whatever new info George may have given them from TWOW and ADOS that dictates how soon they push her return to Westeros. I'm not onboard with the popular theory that the sudden reveal of more seasons (which hasn't even been confirmed for certain) is going to push everything back further. If anything, it just gives them the luxury of more details for the endgame than it did before. Which is a good thing! Team Dragon has some things to resolve yet and we have no idea what happens next other than the second siege of Meereen. They may be including it after all - who knows! Personally I could do without it and since it likely does not have any impact on her eventual return to Westeros, they could leave it out and jump straight to however she gets ships.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:44:06 GMT
GRRM has said that Tyrion and Dany will be apart frim each other for a big chunk of TWoW, so I think Dany's invasion will take place fairly late in the book.
Also you can include far more material in one book than in one season.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:47:28 GMT
Drogon & Dany. Rhaegal & fAegon (Euron in teh show, I think in the books he'll have his own dragon). Viserion & Jon.
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