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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 20:13:42 GMT
I suppose so, but it doesn't seem to translate very well to television and as far as we know, they will cut Victarion the same as they cut fAegon and Quentyn. If it's not someone essential to the endgame, they're trimming them. Victarion propably isn't essential to the endgame. No more than Quentyn. Their purpose is. Quentyn's purpose was to free the dragons. While the blower dies, dragons listen. I never understood the whole horn blower thing. If the person who blows the horn is the one who controls the dragons...but dies, doesn't that cancel it out? How can someone else control them if they weren't the one who blew the horn? I think the interpretation of the horn's "Master" is somewhat suspect. Let's examine the info about it: So how exactly will Vic/Euron actually do this? If they're cutting Victarion from the show, will Euron go to Meereen and try to do this instead? Who will be the Moqorro to advise him and interpret the glyphs? Whose blood will be exchanged for the fire? I try to grasp all this and fail. But lastly and most importantly, Dany isn't going to be in Meereen much longer, so unless they change this horn blower plot entirely to another time period - no one's likely to make it to Meereen to try and win her favor or force her to submit with her dragons from the Greyjoy team. That's not to say they don't add it in later, once she's actually on her way or somewhere in Westeros. It could still be a thing I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 22:28:47 GMT
Victarion propably isn't essential to the endgame. No more than Quentyn. Their purpose is. Quentyn's purpose was to free the dragons. While the blower dies, dragons listen. I never understood the whole horn blower thing. If the person who blows the horn is the one who controls the dragons...but dies, doesn't that cancel it out? How can someone else control them if they weren't the one who blew the horn? I think the interpretation of the horn's "Master" is somewhat suspect. Let's examine the info about it: So how exactly will Vic/Euron actually do this? If they're cutting Victarion from the show, will Euron go to Meereen and try to do this instead? Who will be the Moqorro to advise him and interpret the glyphs? Whose blood will be exchanged for the fire? I try to grasp all this and fail. But lastly and most importantly, Dany isn't going to be in Meereen much longer, so unless they change this horn blower plot entirely to another time period - no one's likely to make it to Meereen to try and win her favor or force her to submit with her dragons from the Greyjoy team. That's not to say they don't add it in later, once she's actually on her way or somewhere in Westeros. It could still be a thing I guess. The point seems to be that the horn is made for Valyrians. People like Dany who are the true blood of the dragon and are unharmed by fire. It possible that people like Dany are the only ones able to hatch and tame dragons and they only come along once every so many years. It makes sense since the Valyrians ability to tame dragons seems to coincide with their resistance to fire, the dragons natural weapon. I dunno, but it would certainly make sense, as this curse would ensure that only "the blood of the dragon" or old Valyria could tame dragons. Makes a lot of sense as a safe guard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 0:31:07 GMT
But Daenerys already has three dragons, so why would this horn be of any use to her even as pureblood Valyrian? I thought the point of the horn was to try and subdue or enslave her dragons to the one who "Masters" the horn. One of us is confused here.
Edit: Euron sent Victarion to make a wedding proposition to Dany but Victarion secretly decided he would wed her instead (as if either of them would actually be someone she'd choose anyways but still...) - wasn't he taking the horn along as some sort of insurance that she would 'comply' with the wedding proposal?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 14:07:17 GMT
But Daenerys already has three dragons, so why would this horn be of any use to her even as pureblood Valyrian? I thought the point of the horn was to try and subdue or enslave her dragons to the one who "Masters" the horn. One of us is confused here. Edit: Euron sent Victarion to make a wedding proposition to Dany but Victarion secretly decided he would wed her instead (as if either of them would actually be someone she'd choose anyways but still...) - wasn't he taking the horn along as some sort of insurance that she would 'comply' with the wedding proposal? Danys dragons still dont obey her properly. Maybe the horn is a tool for properly training your dragon. We dont know how the horn works, or if it does until George tells us. The horn is obviously magical though and I believe it will play a role in the story. Chekhov's gun. I dont see why George would add an item of obvious power without intending some purpose for it. Dany is immune to fire, and her dragons still disobey her. At the moment Viseryon and Rhaegal are roasting her men and her enemies alive. When she gets back she may have a difficult choice to make, in enslaving her children in order to save the world. It would make sense considering her arc is about freedom, and georges stories, particularly the magical elements always have a double edged blade quality to them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 14:58:44 GMT
The main thing the dragon horn did for me when I was reading was remind me of the existence of the Horn of Joramun, which I think is real and will bring down the wall. I never for a moment believed that his horn was real or that he would succeed in subjugating Dany. Euron is a pirate and a liar, so I see no reason to trust anything he says. In the books, I think he knows it's fake and that's why he sends Victarion. They could change that for the show.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 15:08:42 GMT
I don't know if Victarion's horn is fake. But here's the thing.
GRRM has confirmed that we will see the second Dance of Dragons in the future books, presumably in late TWoW or early ADoS. I believe the combatants in that battle are Dany and fAegon. Both sides will have dragons. I'd assume Dany has Drogon with fAegon having Rhaegal and maybe Viserion. The show has no time for that, so they cut fAegon.
But we need someone to oppose Dany. In the books it's fAegon (Dany will slay the mummer's dragon or something like that) and in the show, who? Stannis is dead, Dorne will propably side with her. The Tyrells? No, it's Urine Euron Greyjoy, the Third of His Name.
I believe the show will leave than confrontation for early Season 7. We need just one battle, Euron's ironborn rapist badasses vs Dany's dothraki rapist badasses. The show won't skip a chance for dragon duel, which is why I believe instead of fAegon Euron will steal one dragon via dragonhorn in the show.
fAegon will ride Rhaegal because he has the blood because he is a Blackfyre (and if some theories are true, the Blackfyres are the true Targaryen line, with the main branch actually being false). Euron will ride Rhaegal because he slaves it.
And the reason why I assume the dragon is Rhaegal is because I always assumed Jon gets Viserion because of it's colour.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 15:22:41 GMT
I don't know if Victarion's horn is fake. But here's the thing. GRRM has confirmed that we will see the second Dance of Dragons in the future books, presumably in late TWoW or early ADoS. I believe the combatants in that battle are Dany and fAegon. Both sides will have dragons. I'd assume Dany has Drogon with fAegon having Rhaegal and maybe Viserion. The show has no time for that, so they cut fAegon. But we need someone to oppose Dany. In the books it's fAegon (Dany will slay the mummer's dragon or something like that) and in the show, who? Stannis is dead, Dorne will propably side with her. The Tyrells? No, it's Urine Euron Greyjoy, the Third of His Name. I believe the show will leave than confrontation for early Season 7. We need just one battle, Euron's ironborn rapist badasses vs Dany's dothraki rapist badasses. The show won't skip a chance for dragon duel, which is why I believe instead of fAegon Euron will steal one dragon via dragonhorn in the show. fAegon will ride Rhaegal because he has the blood because he is a Blackfyre (and if some theories are true, the Blackfyres are the true Targaryen line, with the main branch actually being false). Euron will ride Rhaegal because he slaves it. And the reason why I assume the dragon is Rhaegal is because I always assumed Jon gets Viserion because of it's colour. That does make perfect sense. I wouldn't mind if that's what they do...as long as Euron loses. I'm still not sure that everyone on Team Daenerys is really on her team. As I've said elsewhere (and no one seems to agree), I think Daario's loyalty is suspicious. I also thought it was highly suspicious that Varys showed up right after Daario and Jorah left. So I guess I still think the rival "dragon" could come from within her own entourage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 15:32:21 GMT
I don't know if Victarion's horn is fake. But here's the thing. GRRM has confirmed that we will see the second Dance of Dragons in the future books, presumably in late TWoW or early ADoS. I believe the combatants in that battle are Dany and fAegon. Both sides will have dragons. I'd assume Dany has Drogon with fAegon having Rhaegal and maybe Viserion. The show has no time for that, so they cut fAegon. But we need someone to oppose Dany. In the books it's fAegon (Dany will slay the mummer's dragon or something like that) and in the show, who? Stannis is dead, Dorne will propably side with her. The Tyrells? No, it's Urine Euron Greyjoy, the Third of His Name. I believe the show will leave than confrontation for early Season 7. We need just one battle, Euron's ironborn rapist badasses vs Dany's dothraki rapist badasses. The show won't skip a chance for dragon duel, which is why I believe instead of fAegon Euron will steal one dragon via dragonhorn in the show. fAegon will ride Rhaegal because he has the blood because he is a Blackfyre (and if some theories are true, the Blackfyres are the true Targaryen line, with the main branch actually being false). Euron will ride Rhaegal because he slaves it. And the reason why I assume the dragon is Rhaegal is because I always assumed Jon gets Viserion because of it's colour. That does make perfect sense. I wouldn't mind if that's what they do...as long as Euron loses. I'm still not sure that everyone on Team Daenerys is really on her team. As I've said elsewhere (and no one seems to agree), I think Daario's loyalty is suspicious. I also thought it was highly suspicious that Varys showed up right after Daario and Jorah left. So I guess I still think the rival "dragon" could come from within her own entourage. I also had my doubts about Daario's loyalty in the books. But in the show I don't really. Not after his expression when Hizdahr was stabbed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 15:33:17 GMT
They're going to have their work cut out for them making Euron badass enough to seem like an actual threat to Dany, who has been more or less steam-rolling her opposition for the past few years. The general weakness of the Ironborn so far just makes that more difficult. Getting a dragon of his own seems to be the best way to do that, but the horn thing seems outside of what the show is comfortable with. However, I do think there's more going on with the Red priestesses they've been teasing in Essos.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 19:49:02 GMT
These are all great discussions on the potential for rivals to Dany with the dragons. There was a time in my fandom immaturity I would have been upset about someone trying to take Dany's other dragons by force or fighting against her with them - but I have long since divested myself of the 'happy ending' perfectness that we expect in other stories. None of our 'heroes' are going to get exactly what they want or expect but I am hoping at least some of their lives and stories have meaningful endings. In reading the long history over the decades long before GoT started, there were kings and queens who ruled successfully without going mad or being assassinated and actually died of old age! George patterns a lot of his history after English monarchy history which was rife with all sorts of terrible stuff but had some good rulers too. All I want is for ONE strong house to unite everyone against the Others as it happened in the legends thousands of years ago. I'd be ok with that being Targaryen, or Stark, or Martell, or Tyrell or hell, even Lannister. I'm less inclined to think Greyjoy or Bolton (who isn't even a major house really) have the right qualities, nor does Littlefinger or anyone in the Vale at this point. I would have rooted for Baratheon too but they've been extinguished before the real fight began sadly. If Blackfyre rebellion makes a comeback I'm all over that like a fly on poop! But I digress. Backing up to the horn and Euron or fAegon as the main topic now in contention with Daenerys. I would have really preferred the fAegon claim and invasion of Westeros to Euron and a magical horn taking a dragon. I wish they had chosen differently for the show and not dropped fAegon. It's not that I believe he has the better claim to the throne whether fake or real, but that his story is more intriguing and realistic to what GoT politics is about. Yes the story has magic, which is becoming more prevalent and I'm onboard with all the resurrection, dragons, fire and ice magic stuff - completely. The legendary horns ... not so much. I don't really know why but the Horn of Winter and the Dragonbinder both seem like red herrings to me, not chekov's guns at all. I think like Quentyn - they are wishful thinking on the part of the human mortal imagining their power... maybe a nice comparison to some fans/readers who get their tinfoil on just little too thick! (I'm referring more to the reddit crowd if you've ever read some of the wild theories there LOL) To give this another perspective: Melisandre. I think Mel is a 'control' subject for the reader (or watcher) to keep the magical stuff in check. She's like that wild fundamentalist or cultist who interprets things a little too literally and ends up convincing an entire group of followers to drink the koolaid in order to board a spaceship off the planet. We see Melisandre make wild speculations and predictions that simply aren't always true - or at least aren't the way she thinks they are in her visions. She's burned people alive thinking it would save everything. She thinks she could have made Blackwater go in Stannis' favor had she only been there - which we all know was probably impossible considering the circumstances. She would have been wrong - her powers are not that great. She was wrong about Stannis winning Winterfell even if burning Shireen made the snows melt ... fuck, that could have just been coincidence too for all we know. Shireen's death ended up being pointless (or was it?). The ONLY thing Melisandre has ever done that was real magic was birth a demon to assassinate Renly and even that did nothing to turn the tide of the war that ensued. So while yes, she does possess some impressive magical abilities - it's not quite the picture she seems to be painting for everyone else. This is important for us as readers/viewers because it tells us magic is unpredictable and beyond explanation by mortals in this world. Just because a horn (made by men mind you) glows with magical glyphs and causes a man's lungs to burn out black inside does not necessarily mean it's going to actually subdue or enslave dragons. Again... it's up to the interpretation of who? Humans. We're full of ourselves for the most part and usually way overestimate things...even as just bystanders and observers in the story. Targaryens have long been assumed the blood of dragon, but not ALL of them possess whatever magical powers it is they once had in Valyria. This was obvious early on in the story with Viserys being our first experience with someone who assumed they were blood of the dragon and they were in fact, not at all. Then little sister, completely by coincidence and necessity is the one to possess the blood of the dragon. Gifted some eggs, she changes history forever by bringing dragons back. Others assume they can do the same. They are likely very dead wrong. Quentyn was dead wrong...fried to a crisp! I think Euron/Vic are wrong too. But that's just my speculation. I've been incorrect about other parts of the story that I was certain would be a 'thing' and weren't. Lady Stoneheart was left out of the show entirely and I was so sure her story was important for the endgame of the series but unless they bring her in later, it seems unlikely it's anything to do with the endgame of the book either. Same goes for fAegon. And I'm sad about that. Now that being said, I'll wrap this huge essay up with my TLDR summary... TLDR: It's completely possible Euron or Victarion are important to the endgame of the entire ASOIF story if they are casting them for the show. It's also possible the dragonbinder horn is a real thing and actually really works. But I say this with caution. Not everything in the show has panned out as we expected or hoped. Stannis didn't. They could be putting Euron in as another diversion to throw everyone off. I would have preferred fAegon for that job but if they make the Euron story convincing enough, it should be good. Besides, we need a new villain to hate - Ramsay has spent his dime.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 1:15:26 GMT
Lots of interesting thoughts in this.
I am one of those annoying people who thinks that after all the horror is finally over, we will get a pretty standard happy ending. I think Jon and Tyrion are Daenerys' "kin," and eventually the three of them will ride dragons against the Army of the Dead, at the head of an army made up of all the surviving heroes bearing Valyrian steel swords, whoever they may be. I know who I want to be there: Davos, Brienne, Podrick, Gendry, Arya, the Lady and the Brotherhood, Sandor reborn... Anyway, I think there is a lot more rancor to be had before we get to the final battle.
(Aside...without even thinking, I always picture the final battle for the dawn happening at the wall, but that's silly. We know from Dany's vision that the Red Keep burns at some point and is then covered over by ice. I wonder where the final battle will take place in the world. It could be literally anywhere.)
I think Melisandre is the real deal, but she's too stubborn to let the power work. She wants to control it, and what she has tapped into, whatever it is, is uncontrollable. So, she glommed on to the idea that Stannis was AA, and she f'd everything up. If she had paid attention to her fires, the Lord of Light kept telling her that "Snow" was AA (at least in the books...)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 14:50:44 GMT
The main thing the dragon horn did for me when I was reading was remind me of the existence of the Horn of Joramun, which I think is real and will bring down the wall. I never for a moment believed that his horn was real or that he would succeed in subjugating Dany. Euron is a pirate and a liar, so I see no reason to trust anything he says. In the books, I think he knows it's fake and that's why he sends Victarion. They could change that for the show. The quote from adwd in the final Danaerys chapter "The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns." So there is context and mention of Vic's dragonbinder. Dany even admits her methods of control are far less useful. Dragonbinder would be a massive aid to her.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 15:57:39 GMT
Lots of interesting thoughts in this. I am one of those annoying people who thinks that after all the horror is finally over, we will get a pretty standard happy ending. I think Jon and Tyrion are Daenerys' "kin," and eventually the three of them will ride dragons against the Army of the Dead, at the head of an army made up of all the surviving heroes bearing Valyrian steel swords, whoever they may be. I know who I want to be there: Davos, Brienne, Podrick, Gendry, Arya, the Lady and the Brotherhood, Sandor reborn... Anyway, I think there is a lot more rancor to be had before we get to the final battle. (Aside...without even thinking, I always picture the final battle for the dawn happening at the wall, but that's silly. We know from Dany's vision that the Red Keep burns at some point and is then covered over by ice. I wonder where the final battle will take place in the world. It could be literally anywhere.) I think Melisandre is the real deal, but she's too stubborn to let the power work. She wants to control it, and what she has tapped into, whatever it is, is uncontrollable. So, she glommed on to the idea that Stannis was AA, and she f'd everything up. If she had paid attention to her fires, the Lord of Light kept telling her that "Snow" was AA (at least in the books...) White Walkers have to at least march to the Neck.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 21:51:27 GMT
Lots of interesting thoughts in this. I am one of those annoying people who thinks that after all the horror is finally over, we will get a pretty standard happy ending. I think Jon and Tyrion are Daenerys' "kin," and eventually the three of them will ride dragons against the Army of the Dead, at the head of an army made up of all the surviving heroes bearing Valyrian steel swords, whoever they may be. I know who I want to be there: Davos, Brienne, Podrick, Gendry, Arya, the Lady and the Brotherhood, Sandor reborn... Anyway, I think there is a lot more rancor to be had before we get to the final battle. (Aside...without even thinking, I always picture the final battle for the dawn happening at the wall, but that's silly. We know from Dany's vision that the Red Keep burns at some point and is then covered over by ice. I wonder where the final battle will take place in the world. It could be literally anywhere.) I think Melisandre is the real deal, but she's too stubborn to let the power work. She wants to control it, and what she has tapped into, whatever it is, is uncontrollable. So, she glommed on to the idea that Stannis was AA, and she f'd everything up. If she had paid attention to her fires, the Lord of Light kept telling her that "Snow" was AA (at least in the books...) I too have secret hopes of at least some of the favorites making it to something of at least an ending worth living. I can't really see the whole point being obliteration and sorrow for everyone, that's not good storytelling any more than a perfect happy ending predicted from the start. GRRM is a good writer so I have faith he intends it to go somewhere meaningful. Your idea of the last 'heroes' banding together with their valyrian steel and dragonglass to face off with the White Walkers is a great one. As awesome as it would be at the wall, I think you and others are right in that it won't happen that way ... and it will be exciting to see how far south they actually move before the kingdoms are able to stop them. Somewhere along the way we need to find out what their whole purpose and goal is anyways. I would like to think more of the younger generation might be inclined to join Team Dany with Tyrion. Sansa would - she learned to find the kindness in Tyrion and he respected her more than any other man ever has. Arya would if Jon does ... and so on down the line. Bran, Rickon - maybe Trystane representing Dorne? It could be the brat pack of Westeros!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 21:58:13 GMT
Here's a funny thought I had in re-thinking my brat pack idea. If Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany (and is presumedly pardoned of his crimes by her as Queen) won't he still be married to Sansa or will that have been dissolved by King Tommen? It's a technicality that's kind of funny. They may still be stuck with one another.
Edit: And yes I realize they never consummated the marriage and then Sansa wed Ramsay so it's kind of weird.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 22:14:17 GMT
Here's a funny thought I had in re-thinking my brat pack idea. If Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany (and is presumedly pardoned of his crimes by her as Queen) won't he still be married to Sansa or will that have been dissolved by King Tommen? It's a technicality that's kind of funny. They may still be stuck with one another. Edit: And yes I realize they never consummated the marriage and then Sansa wed Ramsay so it's kind of weird. In the books, yes. In the show, no.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 22:16:42 GMT
Here's a funny thought I had in re-thinking my brat pack idea. If Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany (and is presumedly pardoned of his crimes by her as Queen) won't he still be married to Sansa or will that have been dissolved by King Tommen? It's a technicality that's kind of funny. They may still be stuck with one another. Edit: And yes I realize they never consummated the marriage and then Sansa wed Ramsay so it's kind of weird. In the books, yes. In the show, no. So you think in the show she's no longer married to Tyrion because she wed Ramsay? Ramsay's marriage to her wasn't really done by the authority of the king though - they wed in front of the old gods and the crown could claim it's not legit if it's still Cersei pulling the strings. Of course, from that perspective I doubt Cersei wants Sansa still married to Tyrion either since she wants them both dead.
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 29, 2015 22:44:55 GMT
On the show, if you don't consummate the marriage, it's considered annulled so Sansa and Tyrion never were married.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 23:39:09 GMT
On the show, if you don't consummate the marriage, it's considered annulled so Sansa and Tyrion never were married.I wouldn't go that far.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 1:31:19 GMT
Here's a funny thought I had in re-thinking my brat pack idea. If Tyrion returns to Westeros with Dany (and is presumedly pardoned of his crimes by her as Queen) won't he still be married to Sansa or will that have been dissolved by King Tommen? It's a technicality that's kind of funny. They may still be stuck with one another. Edit: And yes I realize they never consummated the marriage and then Sansa wed Ramsay so it's kind of weird. Her marriage to Tyrion can easily be disgarded and Ramsay married her under the old gods. I dont think anyone would care if they annulled the marriage. When youre powerfull enough any vows, even sacred ones, can be disgarded. Tywin had Tyrions last marriage anulled, and they definitely consumated that. Not to mention neither of them want the other. Well, Tyrion kind of wanted Sansa, but thats anither story. I dont think that marriage really matters anymore. It may develop into something, but I cant seen there been anyone like the HS to question Tyrion/Sansa's marriages legitimacey once Dany and Tyrion reach Westeros.
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