Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 6:58:02 GMT
Melisandre has admitted herself on at least two occasions that her visions are often not correct and she interprets them differently than they actually happen. "My reading ... was false" and "I have made mistakes" ... The vision of waking a dragon from stone may not be literal. She may have suggested finding an egg to try it, but again, she's only interpreting her vision as a literal real life dragon with no proof at all it would work. I think it's a metaphorical dragon. Watch the video... he refers to a novella GRRM wrote about Aegon Targaryen called The Mystery Knight where "Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at whitewalls" ... that boy was Egg, becoming Prince Targaryen. He's pointing out that GRRM has actually used this play on words and metaphorical dragon stuff before already. I saw the video but what I was saying is that I don't think the magic required to resurrect someone is the same that is required to hatch dragon eggs. I think both require the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" but in rather different ways. Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 7:03:21 GMT
Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it. I think in the books Thoros used wildfire or something to do his kiss of life. But then Red Priests aren't especially human to begin with, in Mel's POV in ADWD it seems they have some sort of fire life-force in them and they may even be undead like Beric himself.
Also MMD killing Drogo's horse could be a parallel to Mel potentially killing Ghost...that is if Ghost hasn't went running away from CB either north (to find Bran) or south (to find Rickon or Sansa) of the Wall by then, both of which I could also see happening.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 7:12:53 GMT
Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it. I think in the books Thoros used wildfire or something to do his kiss of life. But then Red Priests aren't especially human to begin with, in Mel's POV in ADWD it seems they have some sort of fire life-force in them and they may even be undead like Beric himself.
Also MMD killing Drogo's horse could be a parallel to Mel potentially killing Ghost...that is if Ghost hasn't went running away from CB either north (to find Bran) or south (to find Rickon or Sansa) of the Wall by then, both of which I could also see happening.
Right, I do agree that the Red Priests definitely have some sort of undeath thing going on themselves - perhaps they too have been resurrected. Some suspect Melisandre's beautiful looks are just a glamour having to do with that red ruby she wears which pulses with light. As for Ghost being far away ... not if Jon warged him - wouldn't he need to be near for that to happen? One of the things that's so critically important about that prologue with Varamyr is the clues we're given on how a dying warg goes through a process of removing themselves permanently from their dead body and into their animal. It has to be one close by if I recall. He couldn't get into one of his wolves so he went into everything else until he found them, wasn't that how it went? He did some serious wilderness traveling, through the weirwood network and saw a lot of visions and became "one" with nature before settling into one of his three wolves. The guy with the videos suggested Jon may do the same thing with Ghost... being in a sort of limbo for awhile and even connecting with Bran through the weirnet somehow and that could be how he learns his heritage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 16:46:09 GMT
When do you see this happening?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:15:33 GMT
OK - I confess I stole this (the first part of it, anyway), but I like it!
The Jon Snow that we knew died, but Kit comes back, just transformed. My thinking is it'd be kind of like Gandalf the Grey coming back as Gandalf the White.....how would Jon look with white hair and a white beard?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:21:46 GMT
OK - I confess I stole this (the first part of it, anyway), but I like it! The Jon Snow that we knew died, but Kit comes back, just transformed. My thinking is it'd be kind of like Gandalf the Grey coming back as Gandalf the White.....how would Jon look with white hair and a white beard? I like it. I've been thinking about this because of something that GRRM said about Lady Stoneheart. "“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”" Why would it be so important to show that? Maybe it's because he wants us to know that Jon is going to be different when he returns, because he too was betrayed and cruelly murdered. I honestly never mourned Jon when I read the books, because I immediately assumed he would be resurrected, but I have really mourned him now. There was something about watching Kit bleed out that made me finally realize that the Jon Snow I love is really gone forever.
|
|
|
Post by day dreamer on Jun 30, 2015 18:23:27 GMT
I saw the video but what I was saying is that I don't think the magic required to resurrect someone is the same that is required to hatch dragon eggs. I think both require the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" but in rather different ways. Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it. Do you think Melisandre would die if she gave Jon the kiss of life? Thoros didn't but Beric did transferring to Stoneheart? I like your ideas. btw
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:30:06 GMT
OK - I confess I stole this (the first part of it, anyway), but I like it! The Jon Snow that we knew died, but Kit comes back, just transformed. My thinking is it'd be kind of like Gandalf the Grey coming back as Gandalf the White.....how would Jon look with white hair and a white beard? I like it. I've been thinking about this because of something that GRRM said about Lady Stoneheart. "“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”" Why would it be so important to show that? Maybe it's because he wants us to know that Jon is going to be different when he returns, because he too was betrayed and cruelly murdered. I honestly never mourned Jon when I read the books, because I immediately assumed he would be resurrected, but I have really mourned him now. There was something about watching Kit bleed out that made me finally realize that the Jon Snow I love is really gone forever. Another thought I've had lately is that GRRM really missed an opportunity by not having Cat and the Brotherhood at the wall when Jon dies instead of Mel. Did Cat regret her treatment of Jon? If so, what better redemption than for her to give up her un-life to him?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:53:15 GMT
OK - I confess I stole this (the first part of it, anyway), but I like it! The Jon Snow that we knew died, but Kit comes back, just transformed. My thinking is it'd be kind of like Gandalf the Grey coming back as Gandalf the White.....how would Jon look with white hair and a white beard? I like it. I've been thinking about this because of something that GRRM said about Lady Stoneheart. "“Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books,” Martin said. “Whether it’s sufficient or interesting enough… I think it is, or I wouldn’t have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you.”" Why would it be so important to show that? Maybe it's because he wants us to know that Jon is going to be different when he returns, because he too was betrayed and cruelly murdered. I honestly never mourned Jon when I read the books, because I immediately assumed he would be resurrected, but I have really mourned him now. There was something about watching Kit bleed out that made me finally realize that the Jon Snow I love is really gone forever. I know! Seeing how he went down on the show was so different, seeing all that blood which literally poured out of him! (And the look on his face, it seemed like everything living had come to an abrupt standstill - especially as they panned up and away and all we saw was that still of him in the snow staring up. I just went back to look in the book, and he pretty much escaped that first attach by Wick, then Bowen got him in the belly, but Jon pulled that free (don't know if that would have helped or hurt if it caused him to 'bleed out'), the third one was between the shoulder blades, and I don't see how that could be fatal, and it just says that he didn't feel the 4th one. On the show, though, he got stabbed lots more (6 times?), all of them in the front where his vital organs would be.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:58:08 GMT
I know! Seeing how he went down on the show was so different, seeing all that blood which literally poured out of him! (And the look on his face, it seemed like everything living had come to an abrupt standstill - especially as they panned up and away and all we saw was that still of him in the snow staring up. I just went back to look in the book, and he pretty much escaped that first attach by Wick, then Bowen got him in the belly, but Jon pulled that free (don't know if that would have helped or hurt if it caused him to 'bleed out'), the third one was between the shoulder blades, and I don't see how that could be fatal, and it just says that he didn't feel the 4th one. On the show, though, he got stabbed lots more (6 times?), all of them in the front where his vital organs would be. Yeah, I think it was 6, and all of them appeared potentially fatal. I think Olly's went right in the heart, just like when Roose stabbed Robb.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 19:00:25 GMT
When do you see this happening? I haven't the slightest notion. We're all in the dark now really...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 23:28:50 GMT
Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it. Do you think Melisandre would die if she gave Jon the kiss of life? Thoros didn't but Beric did transferring to Stoneheart? I like your ideas. btw Thanks lady! I gotta admit, I'm pretty stoked to see how this all plays out. Since we sadly did not get Lady Stoneheart's resurrection, we have no idea really what Jon's will be like. I have wondered if Melisandre might die when she brings Jon back - especially if she's already undead herself like many have theorized about her age and true identity. What would be some justice right there I suppose and a way for her character to redeem herself after all she did wrong with Stannis. Konrad and others think she has more to do than just resurrect Jon so I'm not sure if she would die right away like that though it would be pretty moving and poetic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 23:30:56 GMT
Thanks lady! I gotta admit, I'm pretty stoked to see how this all plays out. Since we sadly did not get Lady Stoneheart's resurrection, we have no idea really what Jon's will be like. I have wondered if Melisandre might die when she brings Jon back - especially if she's already undead herself like many have theorized about her age and true identity. What would be some justice right there I suppose and a way for her character to redeem herself after all she did wrong with Stannis. Konrad and others think she has more to do than just resurrect Jon so I'm not sure if she would die right away like that though it would be pretty moving and poetic. Well, she at least has to meet Arya again. Beyond that, I dunno, but I could see her advising/corrupting Jon much like she did Stan.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 23:46:45 GMT
Thanks lady! I gotta admit, I'm pretty stoked to see how this all plays out. Since we sadly did not get Lady Stoneheart's resurrection, we have no idea really what Jon's will be like. I have wondered if Melisandre might die when she brings Jon back - especially if she's already undead herself like many have theorized about her age and true identity. What would be some justice right there I suppose and a way for her character to redeem herself after all she did wrong with Stannis. Konrad and others think she has more to do than just resurrect Jon so I'm not sure if she would die right away like that though it would be pretty moving and poetic. Well, she at least has to meet Arya again. Beyond that, I dunno, but I could see her advising/corrupting Jon much like she did Stan. Maybe she doesn't meet Arya again. She's been wrong about other things. But as poetic as I think her death in order to bring Jon back is, I'm leaning more on the side of the fence that says she lives and goes on to do other things. This one's tough because part of me wants her dead for all she has done and part me doesn't! She's a fascinating character.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 0:00:46 GMT
Well, she at least has to meet Arya again. Beyond that, I dunno, but I could see her advising/corrupting Jon much like she did Stan. Maybe she doesn't meet Arya again. She's been wrong about other things. But as poetic as I think her death in order to bring Jon back is, I'm leaning more on the side of the fence that says she lives and goes on to do other things. This one's tough because part of me wants her dead for all she has done and part me doesn't! She's a fascinating character. I think her visions have all been more-or-less accurate, she just misread many of them with a sortof confirmation-bias and applied them mistakenly to Stan. I think she conflated Stan leading her to AA with Stan being AA. But I think her immediate reaction to Arya means that they will see each other again.
As for whether she'll die, I'm sure she will at some point. I just think it's more of a late TWOW or early ADOS sort of thing.
|
|
|
Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jul 1, 2015 9:01:25 GMT
Ah but look what Mirri Maz Duur did just before Dany burned her... she used dark blood magic to bring back Drogo who was dying. She healed him but the man that came back was not the same... he's more what we see happening when the person resurrecting isn't very good at it (ie Qyburn and Ser Robert Strong). It's necromancy at the very base level definition really. Maybe it has to do with the kind of sacrifice, or the person doing it. When Thoros of Myr resurrected Beric, he seemed to come back mostly normal again, but lost a bit of himself each time he died. But even after six times he was still a normal human being for the most part. Then when that was passed on from Beric to Lady Catelyn, something went a little wrong. Maybe she had been dead too long, maybe she had lost too much blood or being resurrected second-hand from someone already resurrected lessened the power? She's still coherent and has thoughts and communication but she's certainly not the Catelyn we remembered before her death. Which kind will Jon be? Will he be a vengeful but lesser version of himself, or actually the same like Beric or Daenerys? Don't forget ... Dany essentially burned herself and was also reborn (naked and covered in ash) and many believe SHE could be Azor Ahai and that was her rebirth. She may not technically have died on that fire, but there's no denying it changed her and was a baptism of fire so to speak. The same essential thing, just a little different could happen to Jon. If it's not Shireen and the power of her king's blood still within Melisandre that resurrects Jon (it can't have been more than a few days between the time she burned Shireen, left and went back to the Wall, can it?) then it must be someone else or maybe no one at all. Again, referring back to Beric Dondarrion's death - no one was sacrificed at all ... Thoros just gave him the kiss of life. Perhaps Melisandre will kiss Jon before his funeral pyre is lit and that is when it happens. I get goosies just thinking about it. Do you think Melisandre would die if she gave Jon the kiss of life? Thoros didn't but Beric did transferring to Stoneheart? I like your ideas. btw Beric wasn't a red priest and he should have been dead 6 times over, I think he was supposed to be giving his remaining life force to Cat, not using whatever fire magic power Thoros discovered in himself. @konradsmith, buddy, stawp please. Another direwolf death would be Shireen level bad for me. Bad enough the show has underutilized them to the point that all the Unsullied remember is their deaths.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 9:03:56 GMT
Do you think Melisandre would die if she gave Jon the kiss of life? Thoros didn't but Beric did transferring to Stoneheart? I like your ideas. btw Beric wasn't a red priest and he should have been dead 6 times over, I think he was supposed to be giving his remaining life force to Cat, not using whatever fire magic power Thoros discovered in himself. @konradsmith, buddy, stawp please. Another direwolf death would be Shireen level bad for me. Bad enough the show has underutilized them to the point that all the Unsullied remember is their deaths. I hope it doesn't happen. And it certainly wouldn't right away...but I think GrrM has a few more truly brutal twists and turns to lay upon us still.
|
|
|
Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jul 1, 2015 9:11:01 GMT
Honestly I could see the wolves and the dragons all being gone by story's end, I just don't think there will any be more Lady or Grey Wind-type slaughters. Thoros didn't have to offer up any lives any of the six times he resurrected Beric. I dnw Theon to be sacrificed either, so basically hoping for some kind of warging and azor ahai mash-up, like old gods and red god working together.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 9:16:05 GMT
Honestly I could see the wolves and the dragons all being gone by story's end, I just don't think there will any be more Lady or Grey Wind-type slaughters. Thoros didn't have to offer up any lives any of the six times he resurrected Beric. I dnw Theon to be sacrificed either, so basically hoping for some kind of warging and azor ahai mash-up, like old gods and red god working together. In some ways the BWB are the two working together. With the GoHH as a friend of theirs and IIRC their cave is near a weirwood or something, innit? But yeah, hopefully those two magics don't have to be diametrically opposed as Mel thinks it is in ADWD. I imagine Bloodraven could give her a talking-to on all of that.
|
|
|
Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jul 1, 2015 9:34:27 GMT
Honestly I could see the wolves and the dragons all being gone by story's end, I just don't think there will any be more Lady or Grey Wind-type slaughters. Thoros didn't have to offer up any lives any of the six times he resurrected Beric. I dnw Theon to be sacrificed either, so basically hoping for some kind of warging and azor ahai mash-up, like old gods and red god working together. In some ways the BWB are the two working together. With the GoHH as a friend of theirs and IIRC their cave is near a weirwood or something, innit? But yeah, hopefully those two magics don't have to be diametrically opposed as Mel thinks it is in ADWD. I imagine Bloodraven could give her a talking-to on all of that. IIRC, I think their cave hq is actually underneath a weirwood, just like Bloodraven's. I don't feel like looking it up but definitely remember lines about tree roots.
|
|