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Post by boojam on Jun 9, 2016 14:23:01 GMT
One plot development in the story that bothers me is why aren't the Northern Houses aware of the threat from beyond the Wall by now? No one seems curious as to why the Wildlings came south of the Wall. In the books it may have been, partly, the change in climate , tho I am not so sure this is mentioned. Tho GRRM does make Winter a not-to-be-ignored punctuation in Dance, while the show , even at Hardhome, still does not have bitter bitter cold and snow falling, even in that bleak landscape. The Mormonts make no objection to Davos's warning about the Dead Army, tho they don't remark on it either. One suspects the South still responds like Sam's father. I am guessing Episode 10 this season will gig Northerners with the problem. (I can't say, at this late date, that George has done this up well either, tho he has a lot more about the problem.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 14:34:11 GMT
I think one advantage that the books will always have over the show is that pacing works differently when you read, so George can stop the action and spend chapters and chapters describing the past or a family we haven't seen before or a character's internal musings. You just can't do that in visual form. What is lost is the vastness of the world. The North, especially, has always felt sparsely populated and lacking in history compared to how it felt in the books. There is also way less focus on social niceties and courtly behavior. The characters speak and behave in a way that is more modern on the show than in the books. The character that suffers the most from this change is Sansa, because every single thing she did in the books was subtle. It was when she held her tongue or said a sharp word. It was her thoughts and musings, not her actions that were interesting. I think D&D tried to give her something to do, with the best of intentions, and the outcome has been very uneven. Great, at times, but confusing and maddening at other times. And of course, some people will just never get over the fact that they chose to let her be raped. I fear we're gonna see that in the book too, though, just a different rapist.
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Post by Enid on Jun 9, 2016 14:37:31 GMT
My own criticisms were never intended to mean I hate the fact that they put Sansa in Winterfell in the first place. As @konradsmith has said, we all of us hashed that one out ages ago and it was a hot topic last season of course. I think the plot change gave a lot of new material for the north and the "big bad guys" Bolton that didn't really get that much attention in the books and so it worked better on screen I think to focus so much on them. My biggest criticism is really just the plot involving Littlefinger again. I don't like the way they've written Sansa with him. I get it they went for some tension between Sansa and Jon but I don't really get why it was even needed considering the bigger picture. Littlefinger could have just shown up unannounced anyways if they just wanted yet another "army shows up to save the day" moment that they've done previously with Stannis and the Wall/Wildlings battle. I just really don't understand the purpose of having him meet with Sansa secretly so she then lies to Jon about it and then asks for Littlefinger's help anyways. That was pointless plot writing that could have been used to better flesh out the northerners politics and post-resurrection character development for Jon, Sansa, Mel ... pretty much everyone. That was all glossed over entirely and it's a shame considering how huge it is for the story. It's almost as if Jon never died now (so far only the Wildlings seem to care). First time I say it feels like bad writing. Well, as much as I disliked Sansa lying to Jon (I still do), those scenes do have some purpose. It showed that, despite everything, Littlefinger still has some hold on Sansa, that Sansa has adopted his way of looking at the world at least to some degree. It will also create conflict with Jon, either he will be pissed that Sansa didn't share the news about the Vale army sooner, or he will be pissed Sansa made the choice to ask for their help without talking with anyone about it, or both. And maybe the northen lords will get upset that Sansa asked for a foreign army to go into the North to conquer Winterfell. Or nothing will happen, it wouldn't be the first time the show ignores things that should have at least some impact. Regarding Jon and Sansa talking more about everything that has happened, IDK, the never had a close relationship, even now they don't seem that close, maybe once all the Starks are reunited we will have some scenes like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 14:42:57 GMT
My own criticisms were never intended to mean I hate the fact that they put Sansa in Winterfell in the first place. As @konradsmith has said, we all of us hashed that one out ages ago and it was a hot topic last season of course. I think the plot change gave a lot of new material for the north and the "big bad guys" Bolton that didn't really get that much attention in the books and so it worked better on screen I think to focus so much on them.My biggest criticism is really just the plot involving Littlefinger again. I don't like the way they've written Sansa with him. I get it they went for some tension between Sansa and Jon but I don't really get why it was even needed considering the bigger picture. Littlefinger could have just shown up unannounced anyways if they just wanted yet another "army shows up to save the day" moment that they've done previously with Stannis and the Wall/Wildlings battle. I just really don't understand the purpose of having him meet with Sansa secretly so she then lies to Jon about it and then asks for Littlefinger's help anyways. That was pointless plot writing that could have been used to better flesh out the northerners politics and post-resurrection character development for Jon, Sansa, Mel ... pretty much everyone. That was all glossed over entirely and it's a shame considering how huge it is for the story. It's almost as if Jon never died now (so far only the Wildlings seem to care). First time I say it feels like bad writing. I'd say the Boltons appear less in Season 5 than they do in ADwD. Of course they used some Reek chapters for Season 4, but still. There are many great scenes in ADwD that show what kind of person Roose truly is, great interactions with Theon and some minor characters, and most of those were cut and replaced with other scenes. My biggest gripe with the decision to take Sansa to Winterfell is that her presence there took away from Theon's and Boltons' story. We had some great Bolton scenes in 5x03 and 5x05, but apart from that it was really Sansa's story with Theon and Rams hanging around, Roose being on the background. I enjoyed the North storyline in S5 a lot, but in my opinion it could have been a lot better had they used actual ADwD material. If they had to use Sansa instead of fArya they could've kept those Sansa scenes we had, but given more screentime to Roose and Theon. The banters between the two Boltons are especially good, as we've seen in 4x02, 5x05, and 6x01.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 17:34:40 GMT
One plot development in the story that bothers me is why aren't the Northern Houses aware of the threat from beyond the Wall by now? No one seems curious as to why the Wildlings came south of the Wall. In the books it may have been, partly, the change in climate , tho I am not so sure this is mentioned. Tho GRRM does make Winter a not-to-be-ignored punctuation in Dance, while the show , even at Hardhome, still does not have bitter bitter cold and snow falling, even in that bleak landscape. The Mormonts make no objection to Davos's warning about the Dead Army, tho they don't remark on it either. One suspects the South still responds like Sam's father. I am guessing Episode 10 this season will gig Northerners with the problem. (I can't say, at this late date, that George has done this up well either, tho he has a lot more about the problem.) Very good point I was trying to make. The Northern Lords are offended that Jon is leading an army of wildlings but until Davos explained that the dead are coming, not even little Lady Mormont gave a care to that. Glover is too caught up in his own mess after getting his castle back and pissed about the remains of the failed war but even he gets pissed about the wildlings with Jon but no one mentions why those wildlings are with him in the first place. He knows where Hardhome is, he knows the wall... but that point was lost. It should have at least been said. I think one advantage that the books will always have over the show is that pacing works differently when you read, so George can stop the action and spend chapters and chapters describing the past or a family we haven't seen before or a character's internal musings. You just can't do that in visual form. What is lost is the vastness of the world. The North, especially, has always felt sparsely populated and lacking in history compared to how it felt in the books. There is also way less focus on social niceties and courtly behavior. The characters speak and behave in a way that is more modern on the show than in the books. The character that suffers the most from this change is Sansa, because every single thing she did in the books was subtle. It was when she held her tongue or said a sharp word. It was her thoughts and musings, not her actions that were interesting. I think D&D tried to give her something to do, with the best of intentions, and the outcome has been very uneven. Great, at times, but confusing and maddening at other times. And of course, some people will just never get over the fact that they chose to let her be raped. I fear we're gonna see that in the book too, though, just a different rapist. I agree it's always going to be better in the books because of POV internal dialogue. I ended up liking the change to Sansa's story as I never cared for the Vale Lords crap that much at all so it made her far more interesting to me on the show. I guess because they've now made me invest in her character, I'm frustrated at how much they are glossing over shit in the north and rushing forward to the big battle scene. If you don't properly build up to it, it won't feel epic enough or you won't end up caring who dies for it is what I'm afraid of. I'm pretty sure they will have an epic Winterfell battle though, so my fears are probably unnecessary. I'm nitpicking small details about the Northern Lords and Littlefinger is all really. The kicker for me is how much freaking time they've devoted to King's Landing, which many fans are now complaining about being draggy and boring. The real battle is what's happening North of the Wall and how that ties in with the Starks and Northern Lords. Yes we've had plenty of Ramsay/Bolton/Karstark build-up and now Sansa/Jon and minor Northern Lords but really it feels disjointed or missing/lacking some things. Well, as much as I disliked Sansa lying to Jon (I still do), those scenes do have some purpose. It showed that, despite everything, Littlefinger still has some hold on Sansa, that Sansa has adopted his way of looking at the world at least to some degree. It will also create conflict with Jon, either he will be pissed that Sansa didn't share the news about the Vale army sooner, or he will be pissed Sansa made the choice to ask for their help without talking with anyone about it, or both. And maybe the northen lords will get upset that Sansa asked for a foreign army to go into the North to conquer Winterfell. Or nothing will happen, it wouldn't be the first time the show ignores things that should have at least some impact. Regarding Jon and Sansa talking more about everything that has happened, IDK, the never had a close relationship, even now they don't seem that close, maybe once all the Starks are reunited we will have some scenes like that. You're right on that, it was D&D's intention to show LF still has control over Sansa in some small way - they said so in their inside-the-episode interviews. My question is: Do we really need that? Why? Showing the Starks as the underdogs going into the battle was easily done as was, do we really need a Sansa/Littlefinger melodrama on the side? I guess it will make sense when the battle happens and then we find out the result of Littlefinger showing up to help. If it means some big confrontation that spins the table on Littlefinger and he dies, then honestly I'm a bit disappointed as I always assumed his final moments of chaos would happen involved with King's Landing, not the North. I'm reserving final judgement until after the WF battle. I'd say the Boltons appear less in Season 5 than they do in ADwD. Of course they used some Reek chapters for Season 4, but still. There are many great scenes in ADwD that show what kind of person Roose truly is, great interactions with Theon and some minor characters, and most of those were cut and replaced with other scenes. My biggest gripe with the decision to take Sansa to Winterfell is that her presence there took away from Theon's and Boltons' story. We had some great Bolton scenes in 5x03 and 5x05, but apart from that it was really Sansa's story with Theon and Rams hanging around, Roose being on the background.I enjoyed the North storyline in S5 a lot, but in my opinion it could have been a lot better had they used actual ADwD material. If they had to use Sansa instead of fArya they could've kept those Sansa scenes we had, but given more screentime to Roose and Theon. The banters between the two Boltons are especially good, as we've seen in 4x02, 5x05, and 6x01. I do agree with you that Roose the character suffered a great deal from this plot change decision. I thought it would enhance him but instead they chose to make the focus about Ramsay and Reek and Sansa. Roose was (is) an amazingly weird character in the book and they toned him way down on the show. I think they are going to do the same with Euron sadly. Sorry to say. IF Ramsay ends up killing dear ol' dad (sorry, someone poisons Roose) in the books, then maybe I'll understand why the focus was shifted more to Ramsay as the main villain. Still, I support the decision to put Sansa instead of fArya ... it has definitely upped the stakes a lot for significance on the show and as you said, focus more on Roose and the Northern Lords in general would have been great.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 17:52:08 GMT
@envie, I completely agree that King's Landing has been given too much screentime. I mean look at the ranking so far: 1. King's Landing - 57:40 2. The Wall - 56:23 3. The North - 39:07 4. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 5. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 6. Meereen - 29:43 7. Braavos - 29:17 8. The Riverlands - 21:53 9. Ironborn - 21:30 10. The Reach - 17:45 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24
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Post by Admin on Jun 9, 2016 17:55:22 GMT
@envie, I completely agree that King's Landing has been given too much screentime. I mean look at the ranking so far: 12. Dorne - 3:24
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 17:59:59 GMT
@envie , I completely agree that King's Landing has been given too much screentime. I mean look at the ranking so far: 1. King's Landing - 57:40
2. The Wall - 56:23 3. The North - 39:07 4. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 5. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 6. Meereen - 29:43 7. Braavos - 29:17 8. The Riverlands - 21:53 9. Ironborn - 21:30 10. The Reach - 17:45 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 Shaving even 10-15 minutes of that King's Landing time off and devoting it to more character development in the North and Northern Lords would have definitely helped me be less nitpicky about this Littlefinger BS.
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GreenChili
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Post by GreenChili on Jun 9, 2016 18:13:33 GMT
On the other hand, i don't know if someone post this, but someone is following Arya... Olyvar is following Arya??? Quite sure this is actor Adam Turns in his famous role as "Pale Young Man". www.universalartists.co.uk/Actor/Index/2186
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 9, 2016 18:18:02 GMT
@envie , I completely agree that King's Landing has been given too much screentime. I mean look at the ranking so far: 1. King's Landing - 57:40
2. The Wall - 56:23 3. The North - 39:07 4. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 5. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 6. Meereen - 29:43 7. Braavos - 29:17 8. The Riverlands - 21:53 9. Ironborn - 21:30 10. The Reach - 17:45 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 The Wall and The North should be considered the same storyline this year (excluding Ramsay scenes perhaps), don't you think? In this case it's far ahead of KL in screentime, so not a big deal that KL has gotten so much of it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:19:37 GMT
@envie , I completely agree that King's Landing has been given too much screentime. I mean look at the ranking so far: 1. King's Landing - 57:40
2. The Wall - 56:23 3. The North - 39:07 4. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 5. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 6. Meereen - 29:43 7. Braavos - 29:17 8. The Riverlands - 21:53 9. Ironborn - 21:30 10. The Reach - 17:45 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 The Wall and The North should be considered the same storyline this year (excluding Ramsay scenes perhaps), don't you think? In this case it's far ahead of KL in screentime, so not a big deal that KL has gotten so much of it. Ah, should I just make the Boltons a seperate category and add the Vale to The North and The Wall?
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 9, 2016 18:22:38 GMT
The Wall and The North should be considered the same storyline this year (excluding Ramsay scenes perhaps), don't you think? In this case it's far ahead of KL in screentime, so not a big deal that KL has gotten so much of it. Ah, should I just make the Boltons a seperate category and add the Vale to The North and The Wall? I think so, but the Vale should remain separate. It's related, but not a direct continuation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:34:46 GMT
@envie, I'm too lazy to quote and remove most of that huge wall of text, so I'll just tag you. I don't really mind Roose being toned down in the show, I actually like the show version bit more than the Leech Lord of the books.
Euron though, they didn't do the character any favours by doing so...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:36:04 GMT
Ah, should I just make the Boltons a seperate category and add the Vale to The North and The Wall? I think so, but the Vale should remain separate. It's related, but not a direct continuation. Here's the New Ranking: 1. Jon and Sansa - 1:19:16 2. King's Landing - 57:40 3. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 4. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 5. Meereen - 29:43 6. Braavos - 29:17 7. The Riverlands - 21:53 8. Ironborn - 21:30 9. The Reach - 17:45 10. The Boltons - 16:14 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 For the Riverlands too it's Jaime and Sandor's scenes, but not sure if I should separate that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:37:42 GMT
I think so, but the Vale should remain separate. It's related, but not a direct continuation. Here's the New Ranking: 1. Jon and Sansa - 1:19:162. King's Landing - 57:40 3. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 4. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 5. Meereen - 29:43 6. Braavos - 29:17 7. The Riverlands - 21:53 8. Ironborn - 21:30 9. The Reach - 17:45 10. The Boltons - 16:14 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 For the Riverlands too it's Jaime and Sandor's scenes, but not sure if I should separate that. The King and Queen leading the way, as they should be Bring on SNOWBOWL
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 9, 2016 18:40:56 GMT
Here's the New Ranking: 1. Jon and Sansa - 1:19:162. King's Landing - 57:40 3. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 4. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 5. Meereen - 29:43 6. Braavos - 29:17 7. The Riverlands - 21:53 8. Ironborn - 21:30 9. The Reach - 17:45 10. The Boltons - 16:14 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 For the Riverlands too it's Jaime and Sandor's scenes, but not sure if I should separate that. The King and Queen leading the way, as they should be Bring on SNOWBOWL Oh, I had no idea you were a Jonsa shipper
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:41:00 GMT
Here's the New Ranking: 1. Jon and Sansa - 1:19:162. King's Landing - 57:40 3. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 4. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 5. Meereen - 29:43 6. Braavos - 29:17 7. The Riverlands - 21:53 8. Ironborn - 21:30 9. The Reach - 17:45 10. The Boltons - 16:14 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 For the Riverlands too it's Jaime and Sandor's scenes, but not sure if I should separate that. The King and Queen leading the way, as they should be Bring on SNOWBOWL And for Snowbowl, I guess anything pre-battle with Ramsay would just be added to the Boltons screentime.
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 9, 2016 18:42:01 GMT
I think so, but the Vale should remain separate. It's related, but not a direct continuation. Here's the New Ranking: 1. Jon and Sansa - 1:19:16 2. King's Landing - 57:40 3. Bran and Flashbacks - 34:32 4. Dothraki Sea - 34:22 5. Meereen - 29:43 6. Braavos - 29:17 7. The Riverlands - 21:53 8. Ironborn - 21:30 9. The Reach - 17:45 10. The Boltons - 16:14 11. The Vale - 3:37 12. Dorne - 3:24 For the Riverlands too it's Jaime and Sandor's scenes, but not sure if I should separate that.Keep them together for now. I think they might cross paths.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:45:00 GMT
The King and Queen leading the way, as they should be Bring on SNOWBOWL Oh, I had no idea you were a Jonsa shipper Ew.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 18:57:14 GMT
Oh, I had no idea you were a Jonsa shipper Ew. This guy seems hyped about it.
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