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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 23:56:46 GMT
i agree with the criticism though that there should have been more scenes with jon and sansa actually talking about what happened. When Sansa saw the Giant, she was just kind of standing there like "cool, yep giants exist", there definitely should have been a reaction shot there. And for sure the Northern lords should question his desertion. They have especially underused Melisandre, which is disappointing. She is very much like jon though, seems thoroughly depressed. I must say though, jon saying to Sansa "we fight with the men we have" is truly out of character. And i think that scene is more to do with plot convenience than anything. Because Sansa turned the Vale down and now she needs a reason to get Lf back. Which is a decision i'm bewildered by, but it is what it is.This is so weird. I agree. They could have went with meeting the Northern Lords first resulting in "We're hopelessly outnumbered" and THEN Sansa would get a note from Littlefinger to meet up. Much more elegant for her to rip him apart verbally and then demand he atone for his shit by fighting in the vanguard with his Vale men in my opinion. Instead they created some convoluted circle-jerk where she tells Littlefinger to fuck off, and then lies to Jon about meeting him, and then writes him a letter asking for his help anyways. Queue ominous music at the end. I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it. Also, it seems like the writers want to make the audience frustrated with both Jon and Sansa. I'm not sure for what reason, but I guess we'll know after Snowbowl. I agree with @igrewupinkl that there should have been more scenes with Jon and Sansa discussing his resurrection, the War of the Five Kings, and the threat of the WW instead of it all happening off-screen. I don't think it would have been filler either for Sansa and Jon to really share with each other on screen what's really happened since they both left Winterfell.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jun 9, 2016 5:57:53 GMT
I suck at meme font, but you get the idea:
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Post by Admin on Jun 9, 2016 6:05:48 GMT
i agree with the criticism though that there should have been more scenes with jon and sansa actually talking about what happened. When Sansa saw the Giant, she was just kind of standing there like "cool, yep giants exist", there definitely should have been a reaction shot there. And for sure the Northern lords should question his desertion. They have especially underused Melisandre, which is disappointing. She is very much like jon though, seems thoroughly depressed. I must say though, jon saying to Sansa "we fight with the men we have" is truly out of character. And i think that scene is more to do with plot convenience than anything. Because Sansa turned the Vale down and now she needs a reason to get Lf back. Which is a decision i'm bewildered by, but it is what it is.This is so weird. I agree. They could have went with meeting the Northern Lords first resulting in "We're hopelessly outnumbered" and THEN Sansa would get a note from Littlefinger to meet up. Much more elegant for her to rip him apart verbally and then demand he atone for his shit by fighting in the vanguard with his Vale men in my opinion. Instead they created some convoluted circle-jerk where she tells Littlefinger to fuck off, and then lies to Jon about meeting him, and then writes him a letter asking for his help anyways. Queue ominous music at the end. I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it. What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 6:39:33 GMT
This is so weird. I agree. They could have went with meeting the Northern Lords first resulting in "We're hopelessly outnumbered" and THEN Sansa would get a note from Littlefinger to meet up. Much more elegant for her to rip him apart verbally and then demand he atone for his shit by fighting in the vanguard with his Vale men in my opinion. Instead they created some convoluted circle-jerk where she tells Littlefinger to fuck off, and then lies to Jon about meeting him, and then writes him a letter asking for his help anyways. Queue ominous music at the end. I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it. What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope. Her being in Winterfell gave my favourites more screentime so I'm not complaining.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Jun 9, 2016 7:10:17 GMT
What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope. Her being in Winterfell gave my favourites more screentime so I'm not complaining. Beating a dead horse here but Sansa wasn't necessary for that, especially since this season shows the North doesn't seem to give a flying fig about the Starks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 7:50:20 GMT
This is so weird. I agree. They could have went with meeting the Northern Lords first resulting in "We're hopelessly outnumbered" and THEN Sansa would get a note from Littlefinger to meet up. Much more elegant for her to rip him apart verbally and then demand he atone for his shit by fighting in the vanguard with his Vale men in my opinion. Instead they created some convoluted circle-jerk where she tells Littlefinger to fuck off, and then lies to Jon about meeting him, and then writes him a letter asking for his help anyways. Queue ominous music at the end. I don't like it. No sir. I don't like it. What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope. Sansa didn't need to sit out the season. She could have had some quality scenes in the Vale though.
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Post by Admin on Jun 9, 2016 8:06:47 GMT
What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope. Sansa didn't need to sit out the season. She could have had some quality scenes in the Vale though. Yes she could but I'm just saying if she wasn't there the whole season it would be leaps and bounds ahead of what we got
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Post by Admin on Jun 9, 2016 8:12:21 GMT
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4n8dhp/spoilers_everything_does_anyone_else_feel_certain/ This is the point that I was making, I think in this thread, articulated quite nicely both in OP and comments. There is hype for future events, but the buildup for this season is bad. The battle would be a big thing but we know all about it from leaks. KL would be a big thing...but to me it's more like 'meh'. Ironically the only decent, proper, old-GoT style build up is LSH and she may not be in There were great scenes but they were surprise scenes not something we were expecting - Hold the Door. ToJ was awesome but it was split in half, killing the momentum. Resurrection was cool but very much expected. I miss the days when I kept imagining what events like RW, PW or Oberyn vs Gregor would look like and the show delivered.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 8:32:11 GMT
For people who haven't read the leaks and since it's largely ahead of the books now, I don't see this being a problem for most viewers. Back in the early seasons I knew everything that was going to happen, first from spoiler trolls online (mostly on IMDB) and then from reading the books. It was only ever the changes from the text that were curveballs for me... unless of course they too were spoiled by leaks. As of now I think the season will hold up well compared to my favourite seasons s4 and s5. The last three eps. would need to all be tens to beat s4 or stand equal with it, but really with what's in the cards I see that being very possible. As for the above s5-Sansa-in-WF talk, I'm not going to go back to debates of last year because I don't feel the need to justify liking that storyline or rehashing every possible debate about its logistics and merits, people could read old threads for my two cents on that...but I will say that it's not just because I'm a Sophie fan and appreciate her being at the forefront of the show as much as possible. All I'll say that that was my favourite storyline last year and throw in one of these in defiance. Also I don't mind Sansa and Jon being on a learning curve and being underdogs in s6. Though they've been through a lot I think it'd be immensely boring if everything went their way in their Northern recruitment campaign. And as for the division between them, conflict is always immensely more interesting to watch than two people on the same page getting along all the time. And I'm sure there'll be a payoff for their dynamic either in the finale or in s7.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 8:38:47 GMT
For people who haven't read the leaks and since it's largely ahead of the books now, I don't see this being a problem for most viewers. Back in the early seasons I knew everything that was going to happen, first from spoiler trolls online (mostly on IMDB) and then from reading the books. It was only ever the changes from the text that were curveballs for me... unless of course they too were spoiled by leaks. As of now I think the season will hold up well compared to my favourite seasons s4 and s5. The last three eps. would need to all be tens to beat s4 or stand equal with it, but really with what's in the cards I see that being very possible. As for the above s5-Sansa-in-WF talk, I'm not going to go back to debates of last year because I don't feel the need to justify liking that storyline or rehashing every possible debate about its logistics and merits, people could read old threads for my two cents on that...but I will say that it's not just because I'm a Sophie fan and appreciate her being at the forefront of the show as much as possible. All I'll say that that was my favourite storyline last year and throw in one of these in defiance. This is definitely my favourite season too so far. Seasons 4 and 1 are not far behind. But I still think that what I said yesterday is true and the constant streamlining and simplifying is hurting the show's quality a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 8:45:36 GMT
For people who haven't read the leaks and since it's largely ahead of the books now, I don't see this being a problem for most viewers. Back in the early seasons I knew everything that was going to happen, first from spoiler trolls online (mostly on IMDB) and then from reading the books. It was only ever the changes from the text that were curveballs for me... unless of course they too were spoiled by leaks. As of now I think the season will hold up well compared to my favourite seasons s4 and s5. The last three eps. would need to all be tens to beat s4 or stand equal with it, but really with what's in the cards I see that being very possible. As for the above s5-Sansa-in-WF talk, I'm not going to go back to debates of last year because I don't feel the need to justify liking that storyline or rehashing every possible debate about its logistics and merits, people could read old threads for my two cents on that...but I will say that it's not just because I'm a Sophie fan and appreciate her being at the forefront of the show as much as possible. All I'll say that that was my favourite storyline last year and throw in one of these in defiance. This is definitely my favourite season too so far. Seasons 4 and 1 are not far behind. But I still think that what I said yesterday is true and the constant streamlining and simplifying is hurting the show's quality a lot. I didn't respond to that post specifically but I think padding things out hurt the earlier season a lot myself. I think relying on one big episode to carry the whole season did a lot of damage in s2 and to a lesser extent in s3. The show's ability to skip locations for longer periods of time and have multiple big moments throughout the season and for instance not to have Dinklage have way too much screentime which I think over-elongated s3 for example. There are moments of buildup I'd have preferred to get, of course. I think Dany's scene at the end of 604 would've been more powerful if she'd been in 602 for example. Or that Jon should've gotten a supernatural pep talk from Mel at some point (though I think he still will). But then there are some arcs that have been more buildup than anything else that people complain about because of that (mostly Meereen and KL this season). So it's lose-lose in terms of criticism. People will say it's either all about "the big moments" or go "WHERE ARE MY BIG MOMENTS!"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 10:01:34 GMT
What should have happened would be Sansa sitting in the Vale last season and this season, maybe even skipping a season (oh but Turner fans! we need to show her to them!), hearing about Jon being in trouble and arriving with KotV. But nooooope. Sansa didn't need to sit out the season. She could have had some quality scenes in the Vale though. Yeah I do wonder why they didn't just follow The Vale storyline forward into TWoW for her, but the theory is that Harry the Heir might end up similar to Ramsay so the writers decided to have Sansa move into the Northern storyline faster and also interact with characters that the audience was familiar with.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 10:03:02 GMT
Sansa didn't need to sit out the season. She could have had some quality scenes in the Vale though. Yeah I do wonder why they didn't just follow The Vale storyline forward into TWoW for her, but the theory is that Harry the Heir might end up similar to Ramsay so the writers decided to have Sansa move into the Northern storyline faster and also interact with characters that the audience was familiar with. I don't think that's likely. Harry is a dick for sure, but I don't think he's anywhere near Rams in terms of horribleness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 10:06:50 GMT
Yeah I do wonder why they didn't just follow The Vale storyline forward into TWoW for her, but the theory is that Harry the Heir might end up similar to Ramsay so the writers decided to have Sansa move into the Northern storyline faster and also interact with characters that the audience was familiar with. I don't think that's likely. Harry is a dick for sure, but I don't think he's anywhere near Rams in terms of horribleness. Oh I know that and he's not going around flaying people either, I just assume that him and Sansa won't have a good relationship at all.
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Post by kingeomer on Jun 9, 2016 11:20:09 GMT
Her being in Winterfell gave my favourites more screentime so I'm not complaining. Beating a dead horse here but Sansa wasn't necessary for that, especially since this season shows the North doesn't seem to give a flying fig about the Starks. This is something that also occurred to me. Roose telling Ramsey that they need Sansa to keep their hold on the North secure...when in fact they did not need her at all, given the way the North is acting (on the show). If they kept the North the way they were in the books...Ramsey marrying Sansa just like Ramsey marrying (fake) Arya would have actually meant something. I forgot to quote @alcasinoroyale, I also agree that it would not have been filler scenes for Jon to discuss his resurrection with Sansa, for them to discuss War of the Five Kings and the WW. One, mostly, we would have gotten more insight into post-resurrection Jon (who at this point is just there taking up space). And two, maybe the characters would look less like plot devices to just get Littlefinger in on the action. The North Remembers was my favorite plot in Dance and I thought that's something they'd keep intact on screen(Frey Pies, the actual Wyman Manderly speech, let me bathe in Bolton blood, etc.).
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Jun 9, 2016 12:32:44 GMT
Beating a dead horse here but Sansa wasn't necessary for that, especially since this season shows the North doesn't seem to give a flying fig about the Starks. This is something that also occurred to me. Roose telling Ramsey that they need Sansa to keep their hold on the North secure...when in fact they did not need her at all, given the way the North is acting (on the show). If they kept the North the way they were in the books...Ramsey marrying Sansa just like Ramsey marrying (fake) Arya would have actually meant something. I forgot to quote @alcasinoroyale , I also agree that it would not have been filler scenes for Jon to discuss his resurrection with Sansa, for them to discuss War of the Five Kings and the WW. One, mostly, we would have gotten more insight into post-resurrection Jon (who at this point is just there taking up space). And two, maybe the characters would look less like plot devices to just get Littlefinger in on the action. The North Remembers was my favorite plot in Dance and I thought that's something they'd keep intact on screen(Frey Pies, the actual Wyman Manderly speech, let me bathe in Bolton blood, etc.). When they had Rickon become Ramsay's prisoner, I was partly expecting some kind of take on the ADWD stuff where the Moutain Clan's are so desperate to save "the Ned's little girl." And agree about Sansa and Jon. They haven't even discussed Robb, or Bran (since they both know he is alive...). This is a problem I think the show suffers from quite often, they are more concerned with plot than character interaction and development. I want ant to add at this point, because my last few posts here have been rather critical, that I am fairly happy with this season, far more than season 4 and 5, which I thought were so bad I wasn't sure I would watch again. I don't like this season more than S1, but I still think there have been big improvements. I just feel it important to criticise where criticism is due
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Post by boojam on Jun 9, 2016 14:08:27 GMT
Where any of Jamie's captain's , in the background, with Tywin , way back? I am guessing Bronn does it for the money , we still don't really know his past, like was he a soldier once? Seems so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 14:17:11 GMT
Where any of Jamie's captain's , in the background, with Tywin , way back? I am guessing Bronn does it for the money , we still don't really know his past, like was he a soldier once? Seems so. I assume he's always been a mercenary. In Season 1 he tells to Tyrion that he has been north of the Wall.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 14:21:22 GMT
My own criticisms were never intended to mean I hate the fact that they put Sansa in Winterfell in the first place. As @konradsmith has said, we all of us hashed that one out ages ago and it was a hot topic last season of course. I think the plot change gave a lot of new material for the north and the "big bad guys" Bolton that didn't really get that much attention in the books and so it worked better on screen I think to focus so much on them. My biggest criticism is really just the plot involving Littlefinger again. I don't like the way they've written Sansa with him. I get it they went for some tension between Sansa and Jon but I don't really get why it was even needed considering the bigger picture. Littlefinger could have just shown up unannounced anyways if they just wanted yet another "army shows up to save the day" moment that they've done previously with Stannis and the Wall/Wildlings battle. I just really don't understand the purpose of having him meet with Sansa secretly so she then lies to Jon about it and then asks for Littlefinger's help anyways. That was pointless plot writing that could have been used to better flesh out the northerners politics and post-resurrection character development for Jon, Sansa, Mel ... pretty much everyone. That was all glossed over entirely and it's a shame considering how huge it is for the story. It's almost as if Jon never died now (so far only the Wildlings seem to care). First time I say it feels like bad writing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 14:21:23 GMT
Where any of Jamie's captain's , in the background, with Tywin , way back? I am guessing Bronn does it for the money , we still don't really know his past, like was he a soldier once? Seems so. I assume he's always been a mercenary. In Season 1 he tells to Tyrion that he has been north of the Wall. Probably as a bodyguard to smugglers trading with the wildings.
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