Well, okay. You said you would like to be convinced, so I thought I'd try.
I was just explaining that I haven't watched it yet, and why, but I probably will. This is one instance where I need some guidance and gentle prodding to appreciate an episode. But, I am more interested in my peers' opinions, you guys are more objective about the show than the show runners.
I can assure you that the giant pile of dead bodies that got used as a wall to crush other men against is something that happened more than once in human history. You and I probably had a lot of ancestors die that way. How do I know? I read a fuckton of history, including accounts of wars and battles.
Game of Thrones isn't alone in showing the cost of war, but it's the only fantasy series I can think of that ever showed the human cost of war. I give it high praise for that. I also liked that the characters all behaved in character. Their actions on the battle field were an extension of their personalities. And it was really great to see the Bolton legacy at work. Roose wanted to put that military skill to use with Robb, but Robb didn't listen to him because he didn't like his cold methods.
Edit: By the way, you're allowed not to like it. I find it baffling, but no one hates you!
And I also think this was the first battle in the show without any comic relief, just pure horror and desperation.
Was there comic relief at the Wall and Hardhome once the fighting started?
At the Wall I remember the giant's arrow making a dude fly and the scythe cutting through a bunch of wildlings trying to climb the Wall, and both those moments were somewhat comical in the way they were presented to the audience. I think you're right about Hardhome, I only took Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall in consideration.
Edit: yeah, the "oh fuck" like Witchy said could be a bit of comic relief in Hardhome, I forgot about that. The bodies falling down that cliff could also be seen as comic relief, until they rise up and start running of course.
Was there comic relief at the Wall and Hardhome once the fighting started?
At the Wall I remember the giant's arrow making a dude fly and the scythe cutting through a bunch of wildlings trying to climb the Wall, and both those moments were somewhat comical in the way they were presented to the audience. I think you're right about Hardhome, I only took Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall in consideration.
Edit: yeah, the "oh fuck" like Witchy said could be a bit of comic relief in Hardhome, I forgot about that. The bodies falling down that cliff could also be seen as comic relief, until they rise up and start running of course.
I don't remember that WotW moment at all, my mind is probably blocking the contents of this entire episode
And I also think this was the first battle in the show without any comic relief, just pure horror and desperation.
Was there comic relief at the Wall and Hardhome once the fighting started?
The whole Janos Slynt in the kitchens thing, Sam going to let Ghost out and an arrow lands above the door and he's all like "the fuck was that", Edd being confused when Jon puts him in charge. There was plenty of it, but it all fit so well into the story of the episode that nobody really realized it was comedy.
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart.
Was there comic relief at the Wall and Hardhome once the fighting started?
The whole Janos Slynt in the kitchens thing, Sam going to let Ghost out and an arrow lands above the door and he's all like "the fuck was that", Edd being confused when Jon puts him in charge. There was plenty of it, but it all fit so well into the story of the episode that nobody really realized it was comedy.
Yeah, this is the more standard tone we see in battles with characters we love, some comedy and pathos mixed in with the brutality and gore.
Hardhome stands out as unique because the enemy was silent, dead, and ceaseless. And Jesus fuck, that was creepy. But it still had the more standard battle timeline that we're used to with a boss fight in the middle and all.
I think this battle we just watched is the freshest we've seen on TV. I'll have to think about how it stands up to movie battles.
I don't know, this was by far the most gritty battle I've ever seen. There was no glory to be seen there, not even in Jon's godlike performance. They've failed to show the consequences of war for the smallfolk and the country as a whole, but I thought the battle itself was pretty good at showing the horrors of war.
I disagree, you guys are hyping your faces off. People are changing their avatars to Jon punching Ramsay in the face. Somebody made a youtube video where that moment is looped for a full hour. It was a very crowd-pleasing episode.
Let's take a moment to examine the big climaxes of each season.
1x09: Ned Stark, the hero of the story, dies, igniting a massive war across Westeros.
2x09: Stannis battles against the Lannisters in King's Landing. On one hand, we know Joffrey is not the rightful king, we hate him and Cersei, and we want to see Stannis remove them from power. On the other, we love Tyrion and we know that if Stannis won, he'd surely be executed.
3x09: Red Wedding, 'nuff said.
4x09: Battle on the Wall, we're rooting for Jon, but we know from his time with the Wildlings that they're not evil, just human beings born north of the Wall. Mance is a likable leader with depth, Tormund is funny, and in the battle Jon is pitted against Ygritte, the love of his life.
5x09: Daznak's Pit was pretty triumphant, but that feeling is undermined by Stannis burning his little girl alive in a moment of desperation. It's possibly the most gut-wrenching moment of the series, that left me stunned in silence.
6x09 has none of that complex sense of conflict that challenges the viewer with shades of grey. It's very black and white, which is the opposite of what attracted me to ASOIAF in the first place. They never even tried to add any depth to Ramsay. Even the White Walkers got some depth this year, with the reveal that they were once humans, corrupted into tools of war by the Children of the Forest. I'm not saying I want to see the bad guys win, but I do want the conflicts to continue to challenge the viewer as they have in the past.
I didn't see it as a good guys vs. bad guys battle. It's true that Ramsay is completely irredeemable and a monster, but the interesting thing is how Ramsay's evil corrupts Jon and Sansa to a certain degree. As has been said, there was no glory in this battle. Jon made a deeply emotional and (understandably or not) selfish decision that caused hundreds of deaths. Then he was reduced to a raging lunatic gasping for air. Jon lost yet AGAIN, for like the 10th time in the series - just as Alliser Thorne foretold. Nothing of what he did saved the day this episode. Then you have Sansa, who lingers a bit too intently at the sadism of Ramsay's death for it to not have an effect on her. You also have Davos, who is about to lose it with the Shireen situation.
The beauty of the episode is that when the Stark banners return to Winterfell, it feels more ominous than anything else. The "good guys" did not win heroically or because of an inherent goodness in their mission.
I disagree, you guys are hyping your faces off. People are changing their avatars to Jon punching Ramsay in the face. Somebody made a youtube video where that moment is looped for a full hour. It was a very crowd-pleasing episode.
Let's take a moment to examine the big climaxes of each season.
1x09: Ned Stark, the hero of the story, dies, igniting a massive war across Westeros.
2x09: Stannis battles against the Lannisters in King's Landing. On one hand, we know Joffrey is not the rightful king, we hate him and Cersei, and we want to see Stannis remove them from power. On the other, we love Tyrion and we know that if Stannis won, he'd surely be executed.
3x09: Red Wedding, 'nuff said.
4x09: Battle on the Wall, we're rooting for Jon, but we know from his time with the Wildlings that they're not evil, just human beings born north of the Wall. Mance is a likable leader with depth, Tormund is funny, and in the battle Jon is pitted against Ygritte, the love of his life.
5x09: Daznak's Pit was pretty triumphant, but that feeling is undermined by Stannis burning his little girl alive in a moment of desperation. It's possibly the most gut-wrenching moment of the series, that left me stunned in silence.
6x09 has none of that complex sense of conflict that challenges the viewer with shades of grey. It's very black and white, which is the opposite of what attracted me to ASOIAF in the first place. They never even tried to add any depth to Ramsay. Even the White Walkers got some depth this year, with the reveal that they were once humans, corrupted into tools of war by the Children of the Forest. I'm not saying I want to see the bad guys win, but I do want the conflicts to continue to challenge the viewer as they have in the past.
You're not supposed to feel for Ramsay, but for the people under his and Jon's command. The scene with the wildlings trying to rout and causing a massive stampede shows the horrible truth of battle, with no glory to be seen, just pure desperation.
I've never seen anybody express a bit of sympathy for Ramsay's men. The only supporting character in the Bolton story that's been fleshed out is Miranda, and she's another psychopath with zero redeeming qualities. We obviously feel bad for Walda, but in terms of the battle, the viewer doesn't really feel conflicted. It's a very straight-forward setup, root for the Starks, cheer when Ramsay dies.
I think there was a wasted opportunity to not make a character like the Smalljon more likable. It would have added a lot of emotional complexity to the battle if the Bolton side had a named character, somebody fleshed out, to root for. And when was the last time we saw Ramsay, anyway? Episode 4, when he kills Osha? The thing I liked about Stannis vs. Roose last year was all of the back-and-forth scenes of both sides strategizing, poring over maps, discussing the strengths and weaknesses of each commander, counting their troops, reevaluating their resources, the buildup throughout the season was great. This year we just got the Starks trying to recruit help, Ramsay was sorely missing from the second half of the season.
I was just explaining that I haven't watched it yet, and why, but I probably will. This is one instance where I need some guidance and gentle prodding to appreciate an episode. But, I am more interested in my peers' opinions, you guys are more objective about the show than the show runners.
I can assure you that the giant pile of dead bodies that got used as a wall to crush other men against is something that happened more than once in human history. You and I probably had a lot of ancestors die that way. How do I know? I read a fuckton of history, including accounts of wars and battles.
Game of Thrones isn't alone in showing the cost of war, but it's the only fantasy series I can think of that ever showed the human cost of war. I give it high praise for that. I also liked that the characters all behaved in character. Their actions on the battle field were an extension of their personalities. And it was really great to see the Bolton legacy at work. Roose wanted to put that military skill to use with Robb, but Robb didn't listen to him because he didn't like his cold methods.
Edit: By the way, you're allowed not to like it. I find it baffling, but no one hates you!
Okay, but how does that help me understand how the bodies piled up so high in the context of the battle from Sunday night? The show certainly didn't explain it. There was suddenly a huge stack of corpses. I don't think I should need a familiarity with history to accept one of the more over-the-top visuals from the episode. From my lamen's perspective, that sight instantly stuck out to me as seeming unlikely, and it wouldn't have taken long for the show to establish how such a thing happened.
Every day I spend 1-2 hours talking to my boss about GoT. Interestingly, he didn't like the episode either. He's a huge history buff, he falls asleep to history docs on youtube and netflix every night. After we talk about GoT, he likes to tell me stories about great empires and battles from history. How they might have influenced GoT, like the War of the Roses and the Black Dinner. He hated the body pile scene as well. He mentioned something similar happening to Zulu warriors, but that's because they were trying to climb over barricades of mealbags that allowed them to fall onto corpses from a higher height.
The show features a lot of fantastical elements, but we suspend disbelief because the world of Westeros is grounded in reality. If Jon were to fly through the air like a Wuxia warrior, over the walls of Winterfell and chop off Ramsay's head, the audience would rightfully expect some type of explanation for Jon breaking the laws of gravity. The thing is that they didn't put any effort into that here, instead of them telling a story of a battle unfolding, it felt more like a collection of cool moments strung together with little cohesion.
Once again, I don't consider 6 to be a negative rating. For the most part, I liked the episode, I just didn't love it.
I disagree, you guys are hyping your faces off. People are changing their avatars to Jon punching Ramsay in the face. Somebody made a youtube video where that moment is looped for a full hour. It was a very crowd-pleasing episode.
Let's take a moment to examine the big climaxes of each season.
1x09: Ned Stark, the hero of the story, dies, igniting a massive war across Westeros.
2x09: Stannis battles against the Lannisters in King's Landing. On one hand, we know Joffrey is not the rightful king, we hate him and Cersei, and we want to see Stannis remove them from power. On the other, we love Tyrion and we know that if Stannis won, he'd surely be executed.
3x09: Red Wedding, 'nuff said.
4x09: Battle on the Wall, we're rooting for Jon, but we know from his time with the Wildlings that they're not evil, just human beings born north of the Wall. Mance is a likable leader with depth, Tormund is funny, and in the battle Jon is pitted against Ygritte, the love of his life.
5x09: Daznak's Pit was pretty triumphant, but that feeling is undermined by Stannis burning his little girl alive in a moment of desperation. It's possibly the most gut-wrenching moment of the series, that left me stunned in silence.
6x09 has none of that complex sense of conflict that challenges the viewer with shades of grey. It's very black and white, which is the opposite of what attracted me to ASOIAF in the first place. They never even tried to add any depth to Ramsay. Even the White Walkers got some depth this year, with the reveal that they were once humans, corrupted into tools of war by the Children of the Forest. I'm not saying I want to see the bad guys win, but I do want the conflicts to continue to challenge the viewer as they have in the past.
I didn't see it as a good guys vs. bad guys battle. It's true that Ramsay is completely irredeemable and a monster, but the interesting thing is how Ramsay's evil corrupts Jon and Sansa to a certain degree. As has been said, there was no glory in this battle. Jon made a deeply emotional and (understandably or not) selfish decision that caused hundreds of deaths. Then he was reduced to a raging lunatic gasping for air. Jon lost yet AGAIN, for like the 10th time in the series - just as Alliser Thorne foretold. Nothing of what he did saved the day this episode. Then you have Sansa, who lingers a bit too intently at the sadism of Ramsay's death for it to not have an effect on her. You also have Davos, who is about to lose it with the Shireen situation.
The beauty of the episode is that when the Stark banners return to Winterfell, it feels more ominous than anything else. The "good guys" did not win heroically or because of an inherent goodness in their mission.
I like your points about Jon, but this is definitely the feel-good episode of the year, even if they are doing it in the GoT way. People across the net are cheering at Ramsay's death, I'm sure some of the posters here jumped off of their couch in excitement at several points during the episode. There hasn't been a more satisfying episode for the audience since 4x02. It's like this was a big reward for the viewers who stuck it out through all of the nihilism of the past two seasons. I loved the scenes with Davos and Sansa that you mention. After talking about the episode with you guys, I agree that they were trying to go for a more somber battle scene, probably because they understood how simplistic the Stark vs. Bolton conflict could be reduced to in an otherwise more challenging show. The problem is the video gamey moments that seem to scream 'look how cool this is!' The over-the-shoulder shot, the pile of corpses, the CGI arrow flying through the air is something we'd see Legolas do, not in GoT. These moments were so flashy they undermined the darker elements of the battle, for me. My boss put it in an interesting way that he thought this week's battle was less GoT, and more Peter Jackson.
This is how I felt watching the tracking shot:
It wasn't all bad for me. To reiterate, I loved the Bolton soldier's phalanx attack. I love how dirty Jon got and how he had to wade through the muck, like Davos mentioned last year. Repercussions in the finale could help elucidate the depth I thought was lacking from the finale. One thing I think has potential is a possible rift between Jon and Sansa. I know a lot of viewers are perplexed as to why Sansa didn't tell Jon that they might have some extra soldiers coming. A lot of people also thought the Darth Sansa moment from season 4 was a bit over-the-top and on-the-nose. But it may not be if Sansa is becoming a much darker character than imagined. There's also some inconsistency in her writing this year:
Something doesn't add up, it's either bad writing for Sansa this year, or maybe she's trying to manipulate Jon for her own gain. She used Rickon as a reason to motivate Jon to march on Winterfell, but when they were right outside, she tells him to give up on Rickon. The only reason that I could think of for keeping Littlefinger a secret is that she was okay with more Wildlings being wiped out, and possibly even Jon dying. Perhaps she wanted this to be more of a victory for her and Littlefinger, than for Jon to play the hero and take Winterfell for himself?
DaveyJoe there was conflict in this episode and depressing factor but people are missing it. Sansa has massively and imho, if there is to be some consequence to the writing, without chance of return crossed to the dark side. Would Theon, someone who had far more right to kill Ramsay smirk? Nope. Sansa's character development is straight up depressing but 90% of people along with Turner herself are too busy shouting "YEEES! Empowerment! She is a killer! So cool!" to notice that the episode ended on extremely sad and disturbing note. I'm kinda sure the writers didn't themselves notice it and will have this as Sansa's sole kill, disregarding the sadistic glee and the irrevocable damage.
DaveyJoe there was conflict in this episode and depressing factor but people are missing it. Sansa has massively and imho, if there is to be some consequence to the writing, without chance of return crossed to the dark side. Would Theon, someone who had far more right to kill Ramsay smirk? Nope. Sansa's character development is straight up depressing but 90% of people along with Turner herself are too busy shouting "YEEES! Empowerment! She is a killer! So cool!" to notice that the episode ended on extremely sad and disturbing note. I'm kinda sure the writers didn't themselves notice it and will have this as Sansa's sole kill, disregarding the sadistic glee and the irrevocable damage.
I agree. I think in my original review I stated that I thought the moments bookending the battle were fantastic, it was just the action that disappointed me. A lot of fans are assuming Sansa's arc lets her be a great strategist and the Queen of the North, and that very well may happen, but it will come at a great price. I think she's more Littlefinger than Jon. Jon's got good morals, but that is what made him such a bad leader, and the 'fail and fail again' thing recently underlined points to that. GRRM himself has said you can't be a good person and retain power. You've got to be a Tywin Lannister. Sansa had a lot of tension with Jon and Davos this season, who are largely seen as being the most morally-focused characters of the story. I think Sansa's time with Cersei, Littlefinger, and Ramsay may have rubbed off on her. If she's not manipulating Jon with her 180 about Rickon, it's inconsistent writing.
DaveyJoe, I agree that Sansa's time in King's Landing and with LF and Ramsay has definitely transitioned her a bit into becoming a darker character and her releasing the hounds on Ramsay represents the end of her innocence, but I'm probably one of the few that doesn't mind this. Also, I think we might find out a bit more behind this tension between her and Jon in the finale.
DaveyJoe , I agree that Sansa's time in King's Landing and with LF and Ramsay has definitely transitioned her a bit into becoming a darker character and her releasing the hounds on Ramsay represents the end of her innocence, but I'm probably one of the few that doesn't mind this. Also, I think we might find out a bit more behind this tension between her and Jon in the finale.
DaveyJoe there was conflict in this episode and depressing factor but people are missing it. Sansa has massively and imho, if there is to be some consequence to the writing, without chance of return crossed to the dark side. Would Theon, someone who had far more right to kill Ramsay smirk? Nope. Sansa's character development is straight up depressing but 90% of people along with Turner herself are too busy shouting "YEEES! Empowerment! She is a killer! So cool!" to notice that the episode ended on extremely sad and disturbing note. I'm kinda sure the writers didn't themselves notice it and will have this as Sansa's sole kill, disregarding the sadistic glee and the irrevocable damage.
I agree. I think in my original review I stated that I thought the moments bookending the battle were fantastic, it was just the action that disappointed me. A lot of fans are assuming Sansa's arc lets her be a great strategist and the Queen of the North, and that very well may happen, but it will come at a great price. I think she's more Littlefinger than Jon. Jon's got good morals, but that is what made him such a bad leader, and the 'fail and fail again' thing recently underlined points to that. GRRM himself has said you can't be a good person and retain power. You've got to be a Tywin Lannister. Sansa had a lot of tension with Jon and Davos this season, who are largely seen as being the most morally-focused characters of the story. I think Sansa's time with Cersei, Littlefinger, and Ramsay may have rubbed off on her. If she's not manipulating Jon with her 180 about Rickon, it's inconsistent writing.
When you didn't love the Battle of the Bastards:
I think she has completely lost her identity as a Stark now. My memory when it comes to the show sucks but I cannot recall a Stark ever taking pleasure in cruelty. Ned - never. Catelyn - never. Rickon and Bran - no. Robb enjoyed seeing Greywind approach Jaime and scare him but he never laughed about it or let Greywind hurt him. Arya was laughing during PW play and probably would laugh actually seeing it go down but I think her being a good person, the shock of seeing this along with Cersei's wailing would not allow her to laugh. Also there is no way in hell anyone would back her now - she is the one who withold information. Jon actually rode in front of a massive army to rescue Rickon, who in the eyes of those who think Bran is dead, is the rightful heir of Winterfell
DaveyJoe , I agree that Sansa's time in King's Landing and with LF and Ramsay has definitely transitioned her a bit into becoming a darker character and her releasing the hounds on Ramsay represents the end of her innocence, but I'm probably one of the few that doesn't mind this. Also, I think we might find out a bit more behind this tension between her and Jon in the finale.
Better to be a Darth Sansa than a Dead Ned!
That's true. Although I find it funny how Jon and Sansa were really my least favorites in the beginning of the series and now it's the exact opposite. So if they turn on each other, RIP Al. Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
DaveyJoe I think you hit the nail on the head on why I've had issues with sansa's character writing this season. At the start she was sympathetic and forgiving and fired up to save her family. And then as soon as littlefinger showed up she changed and seemed to want to play her own game with what felt like ulterior motives against her own family. It doesn't seem consistent, and maybe Ramsay did change her and it only started showing once she was safe with Jon and out of immediate danger and the shock was over.. And maybe this is her character now and I just don't like it. I'm not sure, but I hope she decides what she is this episode.
That's true. Although I find it funny how Jon and Sansa were really my least favorites in the beginning of the series and now it's the exact opposite. So if they turn on each other, RIP Al. Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
That's true. Although I find it funny how Jon and Sansa were really my least favorites in the beginning of the series and now it's the exact opposite. So if they turn on each other, RIP Al. Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
That's true. Although I find it funny how Jon and Sansa were really my least favorites in the beginning of the series and now it's the exact opposite. So if they turn on each other, RIP Al. Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
That's true. Although I find it funny how Jon and Sansa were really my least favorites in the beginning of the series and now it's the exact opposite. So if they turn on each other, RIP Al. Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
but no one hates you! 
Nah, not really, there's still Davos, my third favorite character.
