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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 13:01:43 GMT
Haha, all I had to do was uncheck 10. I gave it an 11. I've watched the episode three times through already. I've watched the battle scene a few more times. And I watched it dozens of times while watching reaction videos. I keep finding more and more things to love about it.  I'm looking forward to next episode, of course, but this one was the giant orgasm of this season. It's perfectly balanced against the complete and utter devastation of Season 3, Episode 9. |
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Post by kingeomer on Jun 22, 2016 13:18:25 GMT
Btw, your complaints are very similar to my best friend's, who hated SNOWBOWL too  Your complaints are similar to my husband's as well. He basically said the same thing. I wouldn't say he hated Snowbowl but he felt like The Door was a more impactful episode than this one. If he were on this site, he would have rated it a 6 too. Which surprised me because as I said in the family and friend thread, this type of episode would have been his jam. The majority of the horse stunts in the ep. were done for real. There was some crowd replication as there's always been but other than arrows and a few other elements, the battle was more for-real than Hardhome by miles. And Sapochnik purposefully eschewed too many overhead shots to make the viewer feel more in the experience and on the ground in the fight itself. Not only was this the best episode of the show and one of the best in TV but one of the best, most riveting action sequences I've seen hands down. I hated the framing of the over-the-shoulder shot of Jon, and some of the weird filters they used, but I suspect my issues might stem more from the editing rather than the direction, considering how much I loved Hardhome. And scenes like Hardhome and even the Siege of Meereen require CGI and more cartoonish elements because of the presence of dragons and ice demons. I was hoping for a much more grounded, gritty battle here. Chaotic is fine, but if I have absolutely no idea what's happening, I'm not feeling suspenseful or enjoying myself. Some major editing issues in this battle. Why is Wun Wun in the middle of soldiers in one shot, and right behind Jon in the next? Why is there such a huge pile of bodies, people in a battle don't sacrifice good footing and fight on top of corpses so they can make a dramatic looking pile like that. I really love this show, but last night was the first time in six years I've been genuinely disappointed in an episode. I'll rewatch the episode a third time before the finale, and I hope I enjoy it more. Also something my husband said too... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 16:23:12 GMT
The majority of the horse stunts in the ep. were done for real. There was some crowd replication as there's always been but other than arrows and a few other elements, the battle was more for-real than Hardhome by miles. And Sapochnik purposefully eschewed too many overhead shots to make the viewer feel more in the experience and on the ground in the fight itself. Not only was this the best episode of the show and one of the best in TV but one of the best, most riveting action sequences I've seen hands down. I hated the framing of the over-the-shoulder shot of Jon, and some of the weird filters they used, but I suspect my issues might stem more from the editing rather than the direction, considering how much I loved Hardhome. And scenes like Hardhome and even the Siege of Meereen require CGI and more cartoonish elements because of the presence of dragons and ice demons. I was hoping for a much more grounded, gritty battle here. Chaotic is fine, but if I have absolutely no idea what's happening, I'm not feeling suspenseful or enjoying myself. Some major editing issues in this battle. Why is Wun Wun in the middle of soldiers in one shot, and right behind Jon in the next? Why is there such a huge pile of bodies, people in a battle don't sacrifice good footing and fight on top of corpses so they can make a dramatic looking pile like that. I really love this show, but last night was the first time in six years I've been genuinely disappointed in an episode. I'll rewatch the episode a third time before the finale, and I hope I enjoy it more. Did you watch the Inside the Episode bit for this? They talked about why they chose to film it the way they did and where the inspiration for the various components of the battle came from. The giant piles of dead bodies happened a lot in history, including during the American Civil War. Of course, I loved it, so I didn't need convincing. What the battle brought home for me was how terrible war is. Yes, the episode left me in the end with a feeling of satisfaction that the good guys finally won one, and there were traditionally heroic moments, like the Knights of the Vale charging in and saving the day like the Riders of Rohan, but I was okay with those cliches because first we saw the incredible brutality. Jon literally crawled through blood, shit, mud, and guts and clawed his way to the top of a writhing bunch of dead bodies to survive this battle. There is such a stark contrast between Littlefinger and Sansa sitting their horses atop the hill, clean and triumphant, and Jon and Davos, in the muck, covered in filth. I felt so much empathy for all of the men on both sides. Except Ramsay, of course. Fuck Ramsay. I think the CGI that will look dated the soonest is the dog eating Ramsay's face. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 16:30:15 GMT
I just realized that I never rated the episode.  Edit: I gave it a 10 with my reasons explained on various pages of this section. I loved SNOWBOWL, but again I was pleasant surprised by how good the CGI was in Dany's scenes. It was not only a major improvement over Daznak's, but Ramin's score also adds a lot to all of these scenes and he's done fantastic work this season. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 16:50:09 GMT
The first shot owing the body piles looked kinda ridiculous abnd really fake. I loved the episode, but they should've showed how the piles were formed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 16:52:26 GMT
The first shot owing the body piles looked kinda ridiculous abnd really fake. I loved the episode, but they should've showed how the piles were formed. Yeah it almost came out of nowhere, but I guess it was hard to show time passing to begin with. A real life battle lasts longer than 25 minutes. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Jun 22, 2016 17:28:38 GMT
If this episode had the option for an eleven, the finale should have it too. #KLHype. #TrialHype. #HypeSparrowHype.  |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jun 22, 2016 18:34:50 GMT
I hated the framing of the over-the-shoulder shot of Jon, and some of the weird filters they used, but I suspect my issues might stem more from the editing rather than the direction, considering how much I loved Hardhome. And scenes like Hardhome and even the Siege of Meereen require CGI and more cartoonish elements because of the presence of dragons and ice demons. I was hoping for a much more grounded, gritty battle here. Chaotic is fine, but if I have absolutely no idea what's happening, I'm not feeling suspenseful or enjoying myself. Some major editing issues in this battle. Why is Wun Wun in the middle of soldiers in one shot, and right behind Jon in the next? Why is there such a huge pile of bodies, people in a battle don't sacrifice good footing and fight on top of corpses so they can make a dramatic looking pile like that. I really love this show, but last night was the first time in six years I've been genuinely disappointed in an episode. I'll rewatch the episode a third time before the finale, and I hope I enjoy it more. Did you watch the Inside the Episode bit for this? They talked about why they chose to film it the way they did and where the inspiration for the various components of the battle came from. The giant piles of dead bodies happened a lot in history, including during the American Civil War. Of course, I loved it, so I didn't need convincing. What the battle brought home for me was how terrible war is. Yes, the episode left me in the end with a feeling of satisfaction that the good guys finally won one, and there were traditionally heroic moments, like the Knights of the Vale charging in and saving the day like the Riders of Rohan, but I was okay with those cliches because first we saw the incredible brutality. Jon literally crawled through blood, shit, mud, and guts and clawed his way to the top of a writhing bunch of dead bodies to survive this battle. There is such a stark contrast between Littlefinger and Sansa sitting their horses atop the hill, clean and triumphant, and Jon and Davos, in the muck, covered in filth. I felt so much empathy for all of the men on both sides. Except Ramsay, of course. Fuck Ramsay. I think the CGI that will look dated the soonest is the dog eating Ramsay's face. No, sometimes I watch the Inside the Episodes, but I mostly ignore them. I think the episodes should stand on their own, and I feel that the explanations D&D give don't always line up with what I'm seeing on screen. My reaction to Game of Thrones is my own personal experience as a viewer, and hearing the show runners explain their decisions doesn't add much for me. Especially since they ignore a lot of the things people are critical of, like Dorne. I don't understand how those corpses could pile up so high. For somebody to die on top of that corpse pile, they'd have to climb up and fight on the pile of corpses, which doesn't make sense. It should have been explained somehow. It's like somebody was bulldozing all of the corpses into a big pile, which would make sense after the battle concluded, but not during. I can easily overlook some of the cliche moments if the battle had otherwise entertained me. The show is full of moments that eschew logic for the sake of dramatic impact. But I was struggling to process the editing/blocking, so I just didn't enjoy it much, which caused the tropes stick out like sore thumbs. Every single major battle scene of the show has ended the same exact way, by the third time, it's grown stale. Everybody knew Littlefinger was going to save the day. I am completely dumbfounded by the handling of the Sansa/Littlefinger dynamic this season. They set up Littlefinger's army very clearly through the season, so they didn't really earn the element of surprise. They should have done something to undermine the feeling of deus ex machina, maybe show the Knights of the Vale rushing to make it to Winterfell on time, so there'd be some semblance of suspense. And Sansa's bizarre decision to not give anybody a heads up on even the possibility of more allies joining them desperately needs an explanation, because it makes Sansa look bad, and it led to even more illogical decisions by the characters during the battle. Taken alone, these issues can be waved away, but all together, it makes the moment the entire season was building to seem very sloppy. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jun 22, 2016 18:47:48 GMT
And I don't think the show is doing anything special by attempting to portray war as being terrible. It's not the concept, but the execution, and this was one of the most vanilla climaxes of the series, abandoning the grey nature of most conflicts for a pretty basic fight between black and white heroes and villains. The good guys won and the bad guy lost. There wasn't a major sense of sacrifice by the protagonists, and nobody cares about Rickon, in the books or the show. Nobody's talking about the tragedy of Rickon's death, but making punchlines about how he should have zig zagged.
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 22, 2016 19:14:13 GMT
And I don't think the show is doing anything special by attempting to portray war as being terrible. It's not the concept, but the execution, and this was one of the most vanilla climaxes of the series, abandoning the grey nature of most conflicts for a pretty basic fight between black and white heroes and villains. The good guys won and the bad guy lost. There wasn't a major sense of sacrifice by the protagonists, and nobody cares about Rickon, in the books or the show. Nobody's talking about the tragedy of Rickon's death, but making punchlines about how he should have zig zagged. I don't know, this was by far the most gritty battle I've ever seen. There was no glory to be seen there, not even in Jon's godlike performance. They've failed to show the consequences of war for the smallfolk and the country as a whole, but I thought the battle itself was pretty good at showing the horrors of war. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 19:25:51 GMT
And I don't think the show is doing anything special by attempting to portray war as being terrible. It's not the concept, but the execution, and this was one of the most vanilla climaxes of the series, abandoning the grey nature of most conflicts for a pretty basic fight between black and white heroes and villains. The good guys won and the bad guy lost. There wasn't a major sense of sacrifice by the protagonists, and nobody cares about Rickon, in the books or the show. Nobody's talking about the tragedy of Rickon's death, but making punchlines about how he should have zig zagged. I don't know, this was by far the most gritty battle I've ever seen. There was no glory to be seen there, not even in Jon's godlike performance. They've failed to show the consequences of war for the smallfolk and the country as a whole, but I thought the battle itself was pretty good at showing the horrors of war. The headless Bolton rider and panicking wildlings especially. |
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 22, 2016 19:25:59 GMT
One thing that's being overlooked is the single moment where Jon bumps into two men fighting. One kills the other and then Jon kills him without any regard for which side he was on. That right there illustrates how horrible war can be. Nobody knows who belongs where and the resolution only reinforces that.
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Rate 6x09
Jun 22, 2016 19:28:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 19:28:02 GMT
One thing that's being overlooked is the single moment where Jon bumps into two men fighting. One kills the other and then Jon kills him without any regard for which side he was on. That right there illustrates how horrible war can be. Nobody knows who belongs where and the resolution only reinforces that. Didn't Jon kill them both? |
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 22, 2016 19:32:51 GMT
One thing that's being overlooked is the single moment where Jon bumps into two men fighting. One kills the other and then Jon kills him without any regard for which side he was on. That right there illustrates how horrible war can be. Nobody knows who belongs where and the resolution only reinforces that. Didn't Jon kill them both? Oh yes, the first one got up. Either way, he killed one of his own men because he couldn't risk it. And that is scary. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 19:35:00 GMT
Did you watch the Inside the Episode bit for this? They talked about why they chose to film it the way they did and where the inspiration for the various components of the battle came from. The giant piles of dead bodies happened a lot in history, including during the American Civil War. Of course, I loved it, so I didn't need convincing. What the battle brought home for me was how terrible war is. Yes, the episode left me in the end with a feeling of satisfaction that the good guys finally won one, and there were traditionally heroic moments, like the Knights of the Vale charging in and saving the day like the Riders of Rohan, but I was okay with those cliches because first we saw the incredible brutality. Jon literally crawled through blood, shit, mud, and guts and clawed his way to the top of a writhing bunch of dead bodies to survive this battle. There is such a stark contrast between Littlefinger and Sansa sitting their horses atop the hill, clean and triumphant, and Jon and Davos, in the muck, covered in filth. I felt so much empathy for all of the men on both sides. Except Ramsay, of course. Fuck Ramsay. I think the CGI that will look dated the soonest is the dog eating Ramsay's face.
Especially since they ignore a lot of the things people are critical of, like Dorne. I don't understand how those corpses could pile up so high. For somebody to die on top of that corpse pile, they'd have to climb up and fight on the pile of corpses, which doesn't make sense. It should have been explained somehow. It's like somebody was bulldozing all of the corpses into a big pile, which would make sense after the battle concluded, but not during. I can easily overlook some of the cliche moments if the battle had otherwise entertained me. The show is full of moments that eschew logic for the sake of dramatic impact. But I was struggling to process the editing/blocking, so I just didn't enjoy it much, which caused the tropes stick out like sore thumbs. Every single major battle scene of the show has ended the same exact way, by the third time, it's grown stale. Everybody knew Littlefinger was going to save the day. I am completely dumbfounded by the handling of the Sansa/Littlefinger dynamic this season. They set up Littlefinger's army very clearly through the season, so they didn't really earn the element of surprise. They should have done something to undermine the feeling of deus ex machina, maybe show the Knights of the Vale rushing to make it to Winterfell on time, so there'd be some semblance of suspense. And Sansa's bizarre decision to not give anybody a heads up on even the possibility of more allies joining them desperately needs an explanation, because it makes Sansa look bad, and it led to even more illogical decisions by the characters during the battle. Taken alone, these issues can be waved away, but all together, it makes the moment the entire season was building to seem very sloppy. Well, okay. You said you would like to be convinced, so I thought I'd try. |
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Post by Singer of Death on Jun 22, 2016 19:38:04 GMT
I'm joking.  I know but it needed to be said in light of some stuff that happened here on Monday Understandable. |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 22, 2016 19:39:36 GMT
And I also think this was the first battle in the show without any comic relief, just pure horror and desperation.
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jun 22, 2016 19:40:05 GMT
And I don't think the show is doing anything special by attempting to portray war as being terrible. It's not the concept, but the execution, and this was one of the most vanilla climaxes of the series, abandoning the grey nature of most conflicts for a pretty basic fight between black and white heroes and villains. The good guys won and the bad guy lost. There wasn't a major sense of sacrifice by the protagonists, and nobody cares about Rickon, in the books or the show. Nobody's talking about the tragedy of Rickon's death, but making punchlines about how he should have zig zagged. I don't know, this was by far the most gritty battle I've ever seen. There was no glory to be seen there, not even in Jon's godlike performance. They've failed to show the consequences of war for the smallfolk and the country as a whole, but I thought the battle itself was pretty good at showing the horrors of war. I disagree, you guys are hyping your faces off. People are changing their avatars to Jon punching Ramsay in the face. Somebody made a youtube video where that moment is looped for a full hour. It was a very crowd-pleasing episode. Let's take a moment to examine the big climaxes of each season. 1x09: Ned Stark, the hero of the story, dies, igniting a massive war across Westeros. 2x09: Stannis battles against the Lannisters in King's Landing. On one hand, we know Joffrey is not the rightful king, we hate him and Cersei, and we want to see Stannis remove them from power. On the other, we love Tyrion and we know that if Stannis won, he'd surely be executed. 3x09: Red Wedding, 'nuff said. 4x09: Battle on the Wall, we're rooting for Jon, but we know from his time with the Wildlings that they're not evil, just human beings born north of the Wall. Mance is a likable leader with depth, Tormund is funny, and in the battle Jon is pitted against Ygritte, the love of his life. 5x09: Daznak's Pit was pretty triumphant, but that feeling is undermined by Stannis burning his little girl alive in a moment of desperation. It's possibly the most gut-wrenching moment of the series, that left me stunned in silence. 6x09 has none of that complex sense of conflict that challenges the viewer with shades of grey. It's very black and white, which is the opposite of what attracted me to ASOIAF in the first place. They never even tried to add any depth to Ramsay. Even the White Walkers got some depth this year, with the reveal that they were once humans, corrupted into tools of war by the Children of the Forest. I'm not saying I want to see the bad guys win, but I do want the conflicts to continue to challenge the viewer as they have in the past. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Jun 22, 2016 19:42:01 GMT
No, sometimes I watch the Inside the Episodes, but I mostly ignore them. I think the episodes should stand on their own, and I feel that the explanations D&D give don't always line up with what I'm seeing on screen. My reaction to Game of Thrones is my own personal experience as a viewer, and hearing the show runners explain their decisions doesn't add much for me. Especially since they ignore a lot of the things people are critical of, like Dorne. I don't understand how those corpses could pile up so high. For somebody to die on top of that corpse pile, they'd have to climb up and fight on the pile of corpses, which doesn't make sense. It should have been explained somehow. It's like somebody was bulldozing all of the corpses into a big pile, which would make sense after the battle concluded, but not during. I can easily overlook some of the cliche moments if the battle had otherwise entertained me. The show is full of moments that eschew logic for the sake of dramatic impact. But I was struggling to process the editing/blocking, so I just didn't enjoy it much, which caused the tropes stick out like sore thumbs. Every single major battle scene of the show has ended the same exact way, by the third time, it's grown stale. Everybody knew Littlefinger was going to save the day. I am completely dumbfounded by the handling of the Sansa/Littlefinger dynamic this season. They set up Littlefinger's army very clearly through the season, so they didn't really earn the element of surprise. They should have done something to undermine the feeling of deus ex machina, maybe show the Knights of the Vale rushing to make it to Winterfell on time, so there'd be some semblance of suspense. And Sansa's bizarre decision to not give anybody a heads up on even the possibility of more allies joining them desperately needs an explanation, because it makes Sansa look bad, and it led to even more illogical decisions by the characters during the battle. Taken alone, these issues can be waved away, but all together, it makes the moment the entire season was building to seem very sloppy. Well, okay. You said you would like to be convinced, so I thought I'd try. I was just explaining that I haven't watched it yet, and why, but I probably will. This is one instance where I need some guidance and gentle prodding to appreciate an episode. But, I am more interested in my peers' opinions, you guys are more objective about the show than the show runners. |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 22, 2016 19:49:41 GMT
I don't know, this was by far the most gritty battle I've ever seen. There was no glory to be seen there, not even in Jon's godlike performance. They've failed to show the consequences of war for the smallfolk and the country as a whole, but I thought the battle itself was pretty good at showing the horrors of war. I disagree, you guys are hyping your faces off. People are changing their avatars to Jon punching Ramsay in the face. Somebody made a youtube video where that moment is looped for a full hour. It was a very crowd-pleasing episode. Let's take a moment to examine the big climaxes of each season. 1x09: Ned Stark, the hero of the story, dies, igniting a massive war across Westeros. 2x09: Stannis battles against the Lannisters in King's Landing. On one hand, we know Joffrey is not the rightful king, we hate him and Cersei, and we want to see Stannis remove them from power. On the other, we love Tyrion and we know that if Stannis won, he'd surely be executed. 3x09: Red Wedding, 'nuff said. 4x09: Battle on the Wall, we're rooting for Jon, but we know from his time with the Wildlings that they're not evil, just human beings born north of the Wall. Mance is a likable leader with depth, Tormund is funny, and in the battle Jon is pitted against Ygritte, the love of his life. 5x09: Daznak's Pit was pretty triumphant, but that feeling is undermined by Stannis burning his little girl alive in a moment of desperation. It's possibly the most gut-wrenching moment of the series, that left me stunned in silence. 6x09 has none of that complex sense of conflict that challenges the viewer with shades of grey. It's very black and white, which is the opposite of what attracted me to ASOIAF in the first place. They never even tried to add any depth to Ramsay. Even the White Walkers got some depth this year, with the reveal that they were once humans, corrupted into tools of war by the Children of the Forest. I'm not saying I want to see the bad guys win, but I do want the conflicts to continue to challenge the viewer as they have in the past. You're not supposed to feel for Ramsay, but for the people under his and Jon's command. The scene with the wildlings trying to rout and causing a massive stampede shows the horrible truth of battle, with no glory to be seen, just pure desperation. |
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