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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 20, 2016 2:13:41 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now....
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 2:18:41 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go.
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 20, 2016 2:23:10 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go. I choose to remember her great seasons 1-2-3 journey. Her season 6 appearance added nothing to the character but it was nice to see her as strong as ever.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 2:35:06 GMT
But you're making the assumption that her hallucinations don't advance the plot. They do...i mean if they didn't want to explore Dany's mindset they wouldn't have her fly away from her city, abandon her friends in the first place. For Dany to get to where she is now (i.e burning down the temple and ruling over the dothraki), she had to get through something- come to some sort of realisation. Her reasons for burning down the temple are not explored much on the show, and come across as more of a practical reason rather than embracing her fire and blood side fully. So i can't say the hallucinations wouldn't have worked. I guess that's a matter of opinion, but we'll never know because they didn't do it. I think it was more a question of time and logistics more than anything else. They wanted to leave her with the cliffhanger for obvious reasons at the end of season 5 and didn't have time for it in the finale. How does it advance the story? TV is a visual medium, the essential structure and process of storytelling is vastly different than a book. The audience knows Dany's mindset based on what we've seen in season 5. We assume that every decision Dany makes is motivated by every event that has lead up to the present moment. What does the audience gain by knowing that she's thinking about her brother? The Dothraki have been well established in season one as being a threatening group of people that are dangerous, especially to outsiders. How much would Dany's hallucination add to her upcoming season 6 conflict? I think Dany mounting Drogon was her Fire-and-Blood moment, that was symbolic of her choosing her inner-dragon. Her book/season 5 story is kind of pointless if she embraces her fire and blood side, but then needs to do it again in the first act of book/season 6. During her encounter with the Dothraki she's all ready made up her mind about fulfilling her mission by embracing the strength within. There's no realization she needed to come to to burn down the temple. She was waiting for the right moment to defeat her captors and prove to the Dothraki that they should follow her. It's unfair to criticize the show for something we can only speculate will happen in book 6. The audience knows nothing, only people like us pick it apart which makes up a smaller percentage of those who actually watch the show casually. I bet if i asked my dad why she flew away on drogon i'd know what he'd say. And it wouldn't have anything to do with the original meaning or the meaning you're ascribing. By your logic the visions in the HOTU were non-essential. They were not imo and they worked perfectly fine. Which is the original point i was trying to argue. The dothraki grass sea visions could have worked if they wanted to include them, but they didn't and thats fine. But i think its a bit obtuse to say they could never work. They obviously could.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 2:35:26 GMT
It was suprising to me as GRRM said he liked her so much (Tena) he was going to expand the future role of the character. I guess she's not doing anything terribly important though.
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Post by barristanwhitebeard on May 20, 2016 2:40:15 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go. Yeah, I felt the same with Doran's death. I really hope that the Blackfish and Edmure won't get the same treatment...
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 20, 2016 2:45:02 GMT
It was suprising to me as GRRM said he liked her so much (Tena) he was going to expand the future role of the character. I guess she's not doing anything terribly important though. My guess is she survives TWOW and gets a few good scenes but does nothing too important so D&D streamlined it.
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 20, 2016 2:46:45 GMT
Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go. Yeah, I felt the same with Doran's death. I really hope that the Blackfish and Edmure won't get the same treatment... It would be darkly funny if every returning character came back to die (Balon, Osha, Rickon, Blackfish, Thoros, Edmure, Walder Frey , Razdal, Yara...)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 3:35:41 GMT
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 20, 2016 4:31:14 GMT
How does it advance the story? TV is a visual medium, the essential structure and process of storytelling is vastly different than a book. The audience knows Dany's mindset based on what we've seen in season 5. We assume that every decision Dany makes is motivated by every event that has lead up to the present moment. What does the audience gain by knowing that she's thinking about her brother? The Dothraki have been well established in season one as being a threatening group of people that are dangerous, especially to outsiders. How much would Dany's hallucination add to her upcoming season 6 conflict? I think Dany mounting Drogon was her Fire-and-Blood moment, that was symbolic of her choosing her inner-dragon. Her book/season 5 story is kind of pointless if she embraces her fire and blood side, but then needs to do it again in the first act of book/season 6. During her encounter with the Dothraki she's all ready made up her mind about fulfilling her mission by embracing the strength within. There's no realization she needed to come to to burn down the temple. She was waiting for the right moment to defeat her captors and prove to the Dothraki that they should follow her. It's unfair to criticize the show for something we can only speculate will happen in book 6. The audience knows nothing, only people like us pick it apart which makes up a smaller percentage of those who actually watch the show casually. I bet if i asked my dad why she flew away on drogon i'd know what he'd say. And it wouldn't have anything to do with the original meaning or the meaning you're ascribing. By your logic the visions in the HOTU were non-essential. They were not imo and they worked perfectly fine. Which is the original point i was trying to argue. The dothraki grass sea visions could have worked if they wanted to include them, but they didn't and thats fine. But i think its a bit obtuse to say they could never work. They obviously could. The symbolism is there, whether or not the average viewer picks up on it or not. We all bring our own opinions and feelings to any piece of art, and for me, Daznak's Pit was the symbolic gesture of Dany choosing fire-and-blood, and embracing her inner dragon. That's what I'm arguing. We're obviously more invested in the story than a vast majority of people who consume it, if somebody thinks it was just a badass moment, well, they're not wrong. All I can do is offer my opinion and do my best to back it up. The HOTU was a character-defining moment, which is why the show portrayed it as such. It was Dany's climactic moment for book/season 2, whereas her hallucination in book 5 was more of a character building moment, it wasn't as defining. Daznak's Pit was Dany's climactic moment of book/season 5, and the vision afterward was supplementary. The HOTU was the biggest temptation Dany has faced in the entire series. She's tempted by her love for Drogo(the house with the red door in the book), and could have spent her days living out the fantasy of what her heart yearns for. We all want to turn back the clock and erase the grief that dwells within us. Dany was actually given the opportunity, and if only the rest of us could be so strong as to reject it, embrace reality, and push forward into the now. There was a lot less substance for Dany's ACOK story, and the HOTU was a significant element, book five's vision quest, not as much. It was a good scene, but a bit too risky to adapt in the context of season five's finale. If there was a way to write it as a more defining moment for Dany, while setting the stage for season 6's story, it certainly could have worked, I just don't see how.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 6:09:09 GMT
The audience knows nothing, only people like us pick it apart which makes up a smaller percentage of those who actually watch the show casually. I bet if i asked my dad why she flew away on drogon i'd know what he'd say. And it wouldn't have anything to do with the original meaning or the meaning you're ascribing. By your logic the visions in the HOTU were non-essential. They were not imo and they worked perfectly fine. Which is the original point i was trying to argue. The dothraki grass sea visions could have worked if they wanted to include them, but they didn't and thats fine. But i think its a bit obtuse to say they could never work. They obviously could. The symbolism is there, whether or not the average viewer picks up on it or not. We all bring our own opinions and feelings to any piece of art, and for me, Daznak's Pit was the symbolic gesture of Dany choosing fire-and-blood, and embracing her inner dragon. That's what I'm arguing. We're obviously more invested in the story than a vast majority of people who consume it, if somebody thinks it was just a badass moment, well, they're not wrong. All I can do is offer my opinion and do my best to back it up. The HOTU was a character-defining moment, which is why the show portrayed it as such. It was Dany's climactic moment for book/season 2, whereas her hallucination in book 5 was more of a character building moment, it wasn't as defining. Daznak's Pit was Dany's climactic moment of book/season 5, and the vision afterward was supplementary. The HOTU was the biggest temptation Dany has faced in the entire series. She's tempted by her love for Drogo(the house with the red door in the book), and could have spent her days living out the fantasy of what her heart yearns for. We all want to turn back the clock and erase the grief that dwells within us. Dany was actually given the opportunity, and if only the rest of us could be so strong as to reject it, embrace reality, and push forward into the now. There was a lot less substance for Dany's ACOK story, and the HOTU was a significant element, book five's vision quest, not as much. It was a good scene, but a bit too risky to adapt in the context of season five's finale. If there was a way to write it as a more defining moment for Dany, while setting the stage for season 6's story, it certainly could have worked, I just don't see how. i can't really argue with your personal interpretation of those scenes, i can't say i wholeheartedly agree with them though. As you said HOTU was about learning to overcome temptation, to overcome selfish desires in order to get what she wants- the iron throne. But to me, her time in the dothraki sea was truly character defining, as she realises who she is and needs to do. Daznak's pit is merely a plot device to get her there, although it is also symbolic of a choice she is making (which she only realises later in the dothraki sea). If i could choose one line "Dragons plant no seeds" is a summary what her ADWD arc is about.
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GreenChili
Grumpkin
If I fall, don't bring me back.
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Post by GreenChili on May 20, 2016 9:40:26 GMT
I don't want them to be Castamere'd. For fucks sake please let Olenna and Marg survive! If Cersei wipes out an entire House in one scene, she is the major winner of the Game of Thrones in all history. Can't forget the Rains of Castamere motive playing in the background when Cersei and Jaime had that ominous meeting with Olenna & Kevan... So either this is kind of a twisty foreshadowing of the future fate of House Lannister itself: "Now the rains weep o'er his hall, with no one there to hear" in this context brings back the images of the destroyed Throne Room in Daenerys' and Bran's visions. OR the Tyrells simply get castamere'd (as hinted at in the Reddit leaks) ... which I fear is what will happen. however i loved lena's acting in the small council scene. so many quick subtle nuances there. imo its obvious that cersei is playing the long con in regards to the tyrells and sparrows. she's totally going to throw the tyrells in the trash once her main sparrow problem is solved imo. and it makes sense to me that kevan would finally agree too since even book kevan thinks cersei's changed after the WOS. lena's expression when olenna agrees was so good and so subtle. it was like a mixture of relief but also that she's hiding something. I rewatched this scene several times, and absolutely share your observations. There is especially one dialogue that totally seems to prepare the Castamerization of the Tyrells as mentioned in the leaks : "You hate what they have done to your son."This is what Cersei says to Kevan, obviously talking about his son Lancel. But I get the feeling that in her heart and mind she is at the same time speaking about her dead son Joffrey. When she says this, she moves to the side of Jaime, who is slighty nodding in silent confirmation. So in the second meaning, "they" would refer to the Tyrells who had organized Joffrey's death (together with Littlefinger); maybe this information was the secret the High Sparrow had told Tommen (which would also fit to Tommen's shaken state of mind and tearful expression when talking to his mother)? And then Cersei continues, still talking to Kevan: "[...] stand aside and let the people who took him from you be destroyed", after which the camera instantly switches to Olanna Tyrell, averting her eyes...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 10:07:40 GMT
The audience knows nothing, only people like us pick it apart which makes up a smaller percentage of those who actually watch the show casually. I bet if i asked my dad why she flew away on drogon i'd know what he'd say. And it wouldn't have anything to do with the original meaning or the meaning you're ascribing. By your logic the visions in the HOTU were non-essential. They were not imo and they worked perfectly fine. Which is the original point i was trying to argue. The dothraki grass sea visions could have worked if they wanted to include them, but they didn't and thats fine. But i think its a bit obtuse to say they could never work. They obviously could. How dare you call me obtuse, you know I've been struggling with my weight.. Oh ha ha ha
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 20, 2016 11:17:26 GMT
The symbolism is there, whether or not the average viewer picks up on it or not. We all bring our own opinions and feelings to any piece of art, and for me, Daznak's Pit was the symbolic gesture of Dany choosing fire-and-blood, and embracing her inner dragon. That's what I'm arguing. We're obviously more invested in the story than a vast majority of people who consume it, if somebody thinks it was just a badass moment, well, they're not wrong. All I can do is offer my opinion and do my best to back it up. The HOTU was a character-defining moment, which is why the show portrayed it as such. It was Dany's climactic moment for book/season 2, whereas her hallucination in book 5 was more of a character building moment, it wasn't as defining. Daznak's Pit was Dany's climactic moment of book/season 5, and the vision afterward was supplementary. The HOTU was the biggest temptation Dany has faced in the entire series. She's tempted by her love for Drogo(the house with the red door in the book), and could have spent her days living out the fantasy of what her heart yearns for. We all want to turn back the clock and erase the grief that dwells within us. Dany was actually given the opportunity, and if only the rest of us could be so strong as to reject it, embrace reality, and push forward into the now. There was a lot less substance for Dany's ACOK story, and the HOTU was a significant element, book five's vision quest, not as much. It was a good scene, but a bit too risky to adapt in the context of season five's finale. If there was a way to write it as a more defining moment for Dany, while setting the stage for season 6's story, it certainly could have worked, I just don't see how. i can't really argue with your personal interpretation of those scenes, i can't say i wholeheartedly agree with them though. As you said HOTU was about learning to overcome temptation, to overcome selfish desires in order to get what she wants- the iron throne. But to me, her time in the dothraki sea was truly character defining, as she realises who she is and needs to do. Daznak's pit is merely a plot device to get her there, although it is also symbolic of a choice she is making (which she only realises later in the dothraki sea). If i could choose one line "Dragons plant no seeds" is a summary what her ADWD arc is about. Please elaborate how Dany's time in the Dothraki sea is more character defining than the moment she mounts Drogon and flies away from Meereen. I see it as a (possibly redundant) affirmation of the symbolic moment when she embraces her inner dragon. Her vision quest didn't surprise the reader with her decision, it underscored what we saw in Daznak's pit. The scene is fine, but I think you're kind of undermining what George Martin made the climax of Dany's story with this argument. It's clearly the climactic moment of Dany's story in ADWD, but you're dismissing it as a plot device?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:17:49 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... True dat Are you aware of this?
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Post by kingeomer on May 20, 2016 12:35:04 GMT
A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go. I feel like Ramsey is being used as the guy to cut down beloved characters that D&D deem unnecessary. It sucks she was brought back basically to die but we can say that about Doran and Trystane too... Osha's death felt too sudden to me but I've accepted it. I think I can say most fans are fairly sick of Ramsay brutality and ready for it to be over for him. I hate that Osha had to be yet another casualty to what I feel is show 'trimming down' more than plot at times. I rarely criticize the show and this is a mild one so there you go. Yeah, I felt the same with Doran's death. I really hope that the Blackfish and Edmure won't get the same treatment... I hope so too. I'd hate to see House Tully wiped out. And I like those two characters. Menzies is doing terrific work in Outlander (he's seriously by far the best actor on that show) and I will take how much of Edmure he's able to do. A lovely article on Natalia Tena's Osha: watchersonthewall.com/curtain-call-natalia-tena/The best physical performance of the whole show imo. Half-animal, half-human. As one of the comments says, she makes the other wildlings look like kneelers. Forever the one true wildling Guess I'll have to look into her band now.... True dat Are you aware of this? They are real life best friends.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 12:56:35 GMT
i can't really argue with your personal interpretation of those scenes, i can't say i wholeheartedly agree with them though. As you said HOTU was about learning to overcome temptation, to overcome selfish desires in order to get what she wants- the iron throne. But to me, her time in the dothraki sea was truly character defining, as she realises who she is and needs to do. Daznak's pit is merely a plot device to get her there, although it is also symbolic of a choice she is making (which she only realises later in the dothraki sea). If i could choose one line "Dragons plant no seeds" is a summary what her ADWD arc is about. Please elaborate how Dany's time in the Dothraki sea is more character defining than the moment she mounts Drogon and flies away from Meereen. I see it as a (possibly redundant) affirmation of the symbolic moment when she embraces her inner dragon. Her vision quest didn't surprise the reader with her decision, it underscored what we saw in Daznak's pit. The scene is fine, but I think you're kind of undermining what George Martin made the climax of Dany's story with this argument. It's clearly the climactic moment of Dany's story in ADWD, but you're dismissing it as a plot device? Nah I'm good thanks
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Post by Belle on May 20, 2016 13:56:44 GMT
GreenChili I appreciate the reply but I think you should edit your post. We're not allowed to talk about the leaks anywhere else but the leaks post.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 14:00:30 GMT
GreenChili I appreciate the reply but I think you should edit your post. We're not allowed to talk about the leaks anywhere else but the leaks post. There's just one place needs spoiler tags in the post. The rest is just speculation.
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Post by Belle on May 20, 2016 14:09:57 GMT
GreenChili I appreciate the reply but I think you should edit your post. We're not allowed to talk about the leaks anywhere else but the leaks post. There's just one place needs spoiler tags in the post. The rest is just speculation. yeah i agree, just the part where the leaks are mentioned
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