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Post by Zadeth on Apr 25, 2016 13:04:36 GMT
I agree Ellaria is the leader of the Sand Snakes. But she is not the leader of Dorne. She has no claim and even her daughters are not the eldest of Oberyn's children. The Dornish IMO are unlikely to just shrug and say ok, cool, this woman bastard with no claim is now our "Princess". The question is not really who is driving the plot - clearly Ellaria is central there - but who is now the figurehead. Obviously Obara is the oldest of Oberyn's daughters so comes first in that regard, but she remains a bastard and others may have more legitimate and direct claims. Were Oberyn's other daughters even mentioned in the show? The Dornish, at least some of the military, seem behind them. Unless this is all a set up for Arianne to show up and take control. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:07:22 GMT
I agree Ellaria is the leader of the Sand Snakes. But she is not the leader of Dorne. She has no claim and even her daughters are not the eldest of Oberyn's children. The Dornish IMO are unlikely to just shrug and say ok, cool, this woman bastard with no claim is now our "Princess". The question is not really who is driving the plot - clearly Ellaria is central there - but who is now the figurehead. Obviously Obara is the oldest of Oberyn's daughters so comes first in that regard, but she remains a bastard and others may have more legitimate and direct claims. In the books I suspect Darkstar may have some claim on Dornish succession. So once all of Doran's heirs are dead in the books, which I am sure will happen very soon, Darkstar may be next in line, which is why Doran considers him so dangerous. But the show has no Darkstar, at least not yet. That would be true in the books. Not so sure about Show Dorne, which is really lacking in complexity compared to book Dorne. And they don't have Arianne to turn to. I think this is the writers' way of putting a woman on the throne in Dorne. I don't like it because Arianne had a right to it, and Ellaria doesn't. So you think she just becomes leader because she was the one to stage the coup d'état? Right of conquest? Possible I guess, but weak. I just don't see her actually claiming Dorne's "throne". Directing things behind the scenes from this point, certainly, but I don't think she would actually make herself Princess. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:07:47 GMT
I agree Ellaria is the leader of the Sand Snakes. But she is not the leader of Dorne. She has no claim and even her daughters are not the eldest of Oberyn's children. The Dornish IMO are unlikely to just shrug and say ok, cool, this woman bastard with no claim is now our "Princess". The question is not really who is driving the plot - clearly Ellaria is central there - but who is now the figurehead. Obviously Obara is the oldest of Oberyn's daughters so comes first in that regard, but she remains a bastard and others may have more legitimate and direct claims. Were Oberyn's other daughters even mentioned in the show? The Dornish, at least some of the military, seem behind them. Unless this is all a set up for Arianne to show up and take control. I don't think so. Ellaria has claimed more than once to have the backing of the majority of the Dornish people, and we haven't seen anything to challenge that assessment. I think Dorne is just going to remain politically very different in the show. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 13:08:07 GMT
Since Ellaria is the show-version of Arianne, they just concocted a simplistic way to have her be in power. The show has never really given two shits about the line of succession the way the books have.
Basically, once the immediate family is extinguished, the leadership is up for grabs, they've been pretty consistent in that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:08:38 GMT
I really doubt this whole Dornish coup happens in the books. Tyene and Nym are at KL, Obara is chasing Darkstar, and Ellaria is a completely different character.
I think Doran and his family will eventually die, but it won't be like this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:08:44 GMT
I agree Ellaria is the leader of the Sand Snakes. But she is not the leader of Dorne. She has no claim and even her daughters are not the eldest of Oberyn's children. The Dornish IMO are unlikely to just shrug and say ok, cool, this woman bastard with no claim is now our "Princess". The question is not really who is driving the plot - clearly Ellaria is central there - but who is now the figurehead. Obviously Obara is the oldest of Oberyn's daughters so comes first in that regard, but she remains a bastard and others may have more legitimate and direct claims. Were Oberyn's other daughters even mentioned in the show? The Dornish, at least some of the military, seem behind them. Unless this is all a set up for Arianne to show up and take control. It was directly stated that Oberyn had 8 daughters, and Elia was mentioned by name but not introduced as a character yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:09:16 GMT
Were Oberyn's other daughters even mentioned in the show? The Dornish, at least some of the military, seem behind them. Unless this is all a set up for Arianne to show up and take control. Ellaria has claimed more than once to have the backing of the majority of the Dornish people, and we haven't seen anything to challenge that assessment. I think Dorne is just going to remain politically very different in the show. In Season 4 he tells Cersei that he has eight daughters. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:09:44 GMT
Were Oberyn's other daughters even mentioned in the show? The Dornish, at least some of the military, seem behind them. Unless this is all a set up for Arianne to show up and take control. I don't think so. Ellaria has claimed more than once to have the backing of the majority of the Dornish people, and we haven't seen anything to challenge that assessment. I think Dorne is just going to remain politically very different in the show. No, Oberyn directly told Cersei he had 8 daughters and talked to her about his daughter Elia. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:09:53 GMT
Since Ellaria is the show-version of Arianne, they just concocted a simplistic way to have her be in power. The show has never really given two shits about the line of succession the way the books have. Basically, once the immediate family is extinguished, the leadership is up for grabs, they've been pretty consistent in that. Agree completely. I think Ellaria is in charge now. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:11:32 GMT
I don't think so. Ellaria has claimed more than once to have the backing of the majority of the Dornish people, and we haven't seen anything to challenge that assessment. I think Dorne is just going to remain politically very different in the show. No, Oberyn directly told Cersei he had 8 daughters and talked to her about his daughter Elia. I meant, I didn't think there would be anyone else to fight for the throne. He did mention his daughters, but I think that was just to give Cersei an opening to try to manipulate him about Myrcella. I just don't see them devoting a lot more attention to Dorne. I could be wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:12:20 GMT
I really doubt this whole Dornish coup happens in the books. Tyene and Nym are at KL, Obara is chasing Darkstar, and Ellaria is a completely different character. I think Doran and his family will eventually die, but it won't be like this. I agree it doesn't happen in the books. But the effect may not be so different. I am quite sure that all of Doran's heirs die in the books. Arianne will die on her mission to Aegon, just as Quentyn died on his mission to Dany. Trystane will die later. And the unrest of the Dornish and their dissatisfaction with Doran's seeming inaction is real in the books. As is the popularity of the Sand Snakes among the Dornish. |
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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 13:16:02 GMT
Someone said they think Dorne got introduced because of Oberyn , I think that is true.
I think D&D then had no enthusiasm for the story, the dropped the Griff story.
Wrestling with the Blivit problem I think after season 5 they said fuck Dorne!
So was it verified that Varys and Olenna really go to Dorne at the end of this season?
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Post by Basil on Apr 25, 2016 13:18:09 GMT
To be honest, it doesn't make sense to me how Ellaria would be in charge of Dorne now. She wasn't even married to Oberyn, she was just his paramour. They could make it happen if they wanted to, I guess, but it really doesn't make sense - and all the other noble houses of Dorne will be cool with that?
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 13:18:22 GMT
The whole point of the 5 minutes they spent on Dorne this episode was to wipe the slate clean there. They even had Cersei have a fatalistic reaction to Myrcella's death (blaming it on fate from the prophecies) rather than swear vengeance on Dorne just to drive it home. I suspect this is because Cersei has more than enough to deal with in KL this season.
This effectively removes any Dornish complications this season until they agree to be Dany's in to Westeros where they will presumably join her forces in S7 which could be interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:18:51 GMT
No, Oberyn directly told Cersei he had 8 daughters and talked to her about his daughter Elia. I meant, I didn't think there would be anyone else to fight for the throne. He did mention his daughters, but I think that was just to give Cersei an opening to try to manipulate him about Myrcella. I just don't see them devoting a lot more attention to Dorne. I could be wrong. Well I agree that Dornish succession is unlikely to be something the show dwells on. I think the Sand Snakes join other storylines elsewhere so no, not a great deal of time will be spent in Dorne. Ellaria will certainly be running things in some capacity from Dorne IMO, I just find it extremely unlikely she would name herself Princess and ruler, while her own daughters are not first in line even among the SS. They might say Obara is now the Princess of Dorne I guess, but it doesn't fit how Obara has been portrayed and if that were the plan her being in KL murdering Trystane rather than in place in Dorne to claim her throne makes no sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:19:35 GMT
To be honest, it doesn't make sense to me how Ellaria would be in charge for Dorne now. She wasn't even married to Oberyn, she was just his paramour. They could make it happen if they wanted to, I guess, but it really doesn't make sense - and all the other noble houses of Dorne will be cool with that? Agreed. The show will not dwell on the issue, but it IS an issue. And probably an issue the books will share because Doran's heirs will all certainly die soon. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 13:21:38 GMT
To be honest, it doesn't make sense to me how Ellaria would be in charge for Dorne now. She wasn't even married to Oberyn, she was just his paramour. They could make it happen if they wanted to, I guess, but it really doesn't make sense - and all the other noble houses of Dorne will be cool with that? As I said, the show has never cared about the line of succession stuff from the books. They don't even acknowledge other Dornish houses of note. Ellaria stepped up in a power coup, has the backing of the Sand Snakes and enough of the Dornish military (because they were all disgusted with Doran's inaction) and has taken control. It's a more modernized take on power grabs. The show audience understands this even if for book readers, they are conditioned by Martin to all immediately look for all the complicated line of succession rules. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:25:50 GMT
To be honest, it doesn't make sense to me how Ellaria would be in charge for Dorne now. She wasn't even married to Oberyn, she was just his paramour. They could make it happen if they wanted to, I guess, but it really doesn't make sense - and all the other noble houses of Dorne will be cool with that? As I said, the show has never cared about the line of succession stuff from the books. They don't even acknowledge other Dornish houses of note. Ellaria stepped up in a power coup, has the backing of the Sand Snakes and enough of the Dornish military (because they were all disgusted with Doran's inaction) and has taken control. It's a more modernized take on power grabs. The show audience understands this even if for book readers, they are conditioned by Martin to all immediately look for all the complicated line of succession rules. The reason I think it is not so simple is because I am quite certain that this is an element that books and show share: all of Doran's heirs will die in the books as well, and likely quite soon. So if the books will have a succession problem, so will the show, just in vastly simplified form. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 25, 2016 13:26:31 GMT
On Dorne Succession:
I would not be surprised if Doran's assassination is not common knowledge. The guards all seemed okay with Ellaria's actions. I bet they just won't announce Doran is dead, no one ever sees him anyway. Ellaria will do what she wants, and will say it's Doran's orders.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 13:27:55 GMT
On Dorne Succession: I would not be surprised if Doran's assassination is not common knowledge. The guards all seemed okay with Ellaria's actions. I bet they just won't announce Doran is dead, no one ever sees him anyway. Ellaria will do what she wants, and will say it's Doran's orders. That actually makes quite a bit of sense temporarily. They will need a ruler eventually though. |
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