Rewatching the Show (Discussion Thread)

I think that GRRM knows that he wants Sansa in the North but he just doesn't know how to do that. She is stuck in the Vale, new marriage, and so many things that were set up there.

Her chapter from TWOW is a typical filler chapter of the last two books, where you just have another set-up and nothing happening. At that pace I can't see how GRRM can move her to the North in TWOW.


Sansa will learn something in the Vale? Maybe. But we, as readers, don't have any sense of danger or urgency in that plot. And what is the point of learning something if that doesn't serve the plot? Sansa will learn something for what? By the time GRRM will be able to move her to the North, the Boltons will be gone, the Northern lords will have their plot without her, Jon and Davos will do whatever they will do without her.

She will be just a bystander to the plot as always.

I like her plot of the show more, because it isn't typical "lets isolate the character and give him a mentor" trope Martin he has done with every Stark kid post-ASOS.

In the show her plot was able make me feel range of emotions. In the books she is just there. Isolated and safe.

Right but that is precisely what I prefer, the fact that she is already in place in the North, already has direct history with the Boltons, already has a purpose and a drive through the horrific things that happened to her. There's conflict and drama there that I find interesting and promising. The fact that she had 3 chapters in 2 books is a huge part of why I prefer her show story - I don't think it's effective for what is supposed to be heading into the final act of his series.

So Sansa being an idiot at the center of a plot is better than her taking a bit of a back seat and learning how to actually play the game? Not trying to be snarky, I just don't see how it's better. If they were going to move her to the North, they should've went about it in a completely different way that didn't involve her asking no questions.

Well, I don't think she was an idiot. And she asked LF many questions in E4.


It is better because it is exciting. It is dark, horrible, dangerous, you fear for her, for her life, you root for her, you are thrilled when she finds out about Bran and Rickon and many other things.


As I said range of emotions.

I don't think anything she did was particularly out of character. The stupidest thing she did was going along with Littlefinger's plan but I also don't really see what choice she felt she had, and she developed a rather unhealthy level of trust with him at this point in both book and show so...

The biggest mistake the show made, in my view, is the scene at the end of season 4 when they made it look like she was going to start playing Littlefinger herself. One costume change and dramatic shift in attitude, as a season ender no less, made people think she had turned the corner then and there. Considering what then happened in season 5 I think that was a poor decision. 

I don't like comparing the show to the books and vice versa, because I think both have their merits and shortcomings, but I agree with breakfest that the absence of meaningful plot movement and not having enough chapters dedicated to Sansa is a fair point of criticism in itself. That is generally a problem of the last two books, though and seeing how S5 is the adaptation of said books, I think it's not unfair to say that D&D tried to mend these problems. And IMHO they succeded in that. They improved the story by cutting the filler and adding/streamlining some stuff that needed to be added/streamlined.

I mean, sure, GRRM had Sansa alone and thus could concentrate on her story. But how did he do that? By writing only 3 chapters that didn't move the plot along and at the same time adding countless new characters and giving way too much filler to Tyrion, Brienne and others. So he didn't really concentrate on Sansa at all. The show did a much better job in this regard.
It's fair to compare S5 to books 4 and 5, because S5 is the adaptation of said books. I'm confident that GRRM will improve on that in the sixth book, but that is irrelevant for the criticism of books 4 and 5. After all they need to be able to stand for themselves.

IMHO of course.

EDIT: Shit, I took way too much time to write all of this and breakfest has already said everything.

The thing I must (begrudgingly) admit about the show is storylines will end out the same way. A lot of stuff in series 5 cannot happen in the books, and a lot of things that people think will happen or that happened in the books can now not happen in the show.
It's nothing new, but S5 was the biggest deviation in terms of story, and S6 has nothing but George saying "this is what I'm thinking of doing", so quite a lot of things will be different in the finished product.

I still feel some of the stuff in S5 was pointless, or changed to better reflect other people, so blame gets shifted, cough cough, yes I'm still bitter cough cough. My biggest pet peve is that, in the long run, none of the dramatic stuff they actually did in S5 that really shocked people adds to the dynamic whatsoever in any way. But that's only IMO

That's a big part of why it doesn't work though. How they ended her in S4 then scrapped that development in S5. And the lengths they went to keep her story where they wanted it. They make Pod go outside so Sansa can't see a familiar face with Brienne. She drops the corkscrew, which she could've used as a weapon and leaves her door wide open as soon as she escapes her room. It felt so forced and how are we supposed to trust Sansa as a future political figure if she's STILL going along with shady plots? The only way this can be redeemed is if she either kills Littlefinger or orders his death herself.

Do u need Walder to rape Arya to give her enough of a reason?