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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:00:46 GMT
Mashable Article - Maisie Williams Interview with London's Evening StandardThis is a good summary (link to original interview is in the article). Maisie addresses the fact that many female roles are often identified by their looks and sex appeal rather than the character's actual personality. She also admits she has been fortunate to break into the industry with a very non-sexist type female role that fits her personality so well in Arya. She says: Right On Girly! You show 'em! Much like Katniss from The Hunger Games, I see Arya as an inspiration to young girls who want to be tough and not feminine. Unfortunately Game of Thrones isn't a show I think young 12-13 year old girls should be watching, LOL.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:06:51 GMT
Also, for what it's worth, I should note my opinion on 'hot piece' roles: They will always be there, it's a part of society and there will be hot female roles as much as hot male roles in films and television.
However. I think Game of Thrones has demonstrated without a shadow of a doubt that it's entirely possible to have both and be well done. ALL of the sexy men and women in the cast are also very multi-faceted characters - not simply good looking. You really have to have the acting chops for this show!
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Post by Basil on Aug 22, 2015 19:21:42 GMT
I don't actually think that in order to be tough, a girl has to sacrifice her femininity. You can be both, a strong female character and feminine at the same time (I'd say Catelyn and Dany are good examples for this). Arya is a bit of an extreme, in my opinion, she's almost too much of a tomboy and too wild. And Sansa is the other way around, she's a bit too passive. They are both extremely strong characters, of course, but if I think about it, neither one of them is a particularly good role model for young girls. A combination of them both probably would be, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:36:10 GMT
I wouldn't say sociopathic tomboy murderer is a good role model, but each to their own, I guess...
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Post by Admin on Aug 22, 2015 19:37:30 GMT
I don't actually think that in order to be tough, a girl has to sacrifice her femininity. You can be both, a strong female character and feminine at the same time (I'd say Catelyn and Dany are good examples for this). Arya is a bit of an extreme, in my opinion, she's almost too much of a tomboy and too wild. And Sansa is the other way around, she's a bit too passive. They are both extremely strong characters, of course, but if I think about it, neither one of them is a particularly good role model for young girls. A combination of them both probably would be, though. There's a bit too much of this whole badass butch need no man thing going around lately, Dany with her wine drinking while hot dude strips not being an exception here. Protecting those you love, being faithful and mature, having honor and dignity, pride, like Catelyn - that's a good role model. Not swinging swords and fucking hot dudes GIRL POWER FUCK YEAH
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:40:07 GMT
I wouldn't say sociopathic tomboy murderer is a good role model, but each to their own, I guess... I think she means Arya's resistance to conform to a patriarchal society. But I don't know how many young girls will choose to emulate Arya Stark. It worries me in some level to think we may have faceless men roaming the world in Arya Stark cosplay...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:44:42 GMT
I don't actually think that in order to be tough, a girl has to sacrifice her femininity. You can be both, a strong female character and feminine at the same time (I'd say Catelyn and Dany are good examples for this). Arya is a bit of an extreme, in my opinion, she's almost too much of a tomboy and too wild. And Sansa is the other way around, she's a bit too passive. They are both extremely strong characters, of course, but if I think about it, neither one of them is a particularly good role model for young girls. A combination of them both probably would be, though. Well GRRM wrote Arya and Sansa as two sides of the same coin really. It was a purposeful flip of roles from one extreme to the other but I don't think it lessens either of them to make a good role model since both of them show strength in different ways. Plenty of girls out there want nothing to do with femininity (and this has nothing to do with sexuality mind you) and feel trapped or forced into 'girl' expectations such as gender specific clothing (pink/flowers/barf) ... I know because I grew up very much a confused Arya type girl myself. I wanted to be a woman, there was no confusion on gender identity for me, but I didn't want to be the stereotypical female and had no desire to wear dresses or play with dolls. When I got older, I cut my hair short and many thought I was a lesbian, but I wasn't. I married a handsome boy to prove that wrong but ended up being miserable. I was happier on my own, loving without boundaries to be honest. I've had both girlfriends and boyfriends and I don't really identify with homosexuality or heterosexuality. I suppose bisexuality is the truest 'confused' there is unless you're comfortable with it. That's why I was ecstatic about their casting Oberyn the way they did - it was very empowering for bisexual identity. But anyways, I did say Arya/Sansa wasn't necessarily about sexual expectations of femininity and I do believe that. George isn't always perfect at it, but I'm continually amazed as his character perception abilities. He wrote Arya the way she is to purposely challenge the ideals of a female strong character ... what IS the defining role of a female like Arya? Will she end up being like Brienne... teased and mocked for her masculine side? Or will she find her own form of feminine too? Cat of the Canals was Arya acting out a much prettier/feminine side of herself - and she was happy in that role even if it wasn't really Arya. You saw her smiling and enjoying herself and looking pretty without being overly feminine. They nailed that one too. Arya can be strong and feminine too ... it's not too over the top.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:46:14 GMT
I wouldn't say sociopathic tomboy murderer is a good role model, but each to their own, I guess... I think she means Arya's resistance to conform to a patriarchal society. But I don't know how many young girls will choose to emulate Arya Stark. It worries me in some level to think we may have faceless men roaming the world in Arya Stark cosplay... Again, I did notate that I do not think Game of Thrones is a good role model show for ANY young female or male in that sense and I don't think that's at all what Maisie Williams was trying to say either. I think you are missing the point @rooseisazorhai.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:46:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 19:52:06 GMT
I wouldn't say sociopathic tomboy murderer is a good role model, but each to their own, I guess... PS: I take some exception to your use of the term "sociopathic" because it is overused very casually in pop media and I don't think most people really understand what it means from a true psychological standpoint. "To each his own" does not extend to making blanket psyche evals of a character.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 20:40:27 GMT
I wouldn't say sociopathic tomboy murderer is a good role model, but each to their own, I guess... PS: I take some exception to your use of the term "sociopathic" because it is overused very casually in pop media and I don't think most people really understand what it means from a true psychological standpoint. "To each his own" does not extend to making blanket psyche evals of a character. It was a joke, the latter half of it. But Arya HAS some sociopathic qualities. But tbh, I think we all do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 20:44:29 GMT
PS: I take some exception to your use of the term "sociopathic" because it is overused very casually in pop media and I don't think most people really understand what it means from a true psychological standpoint. "To each his own" does not extend to making blanket psyche evals of a character. It was a joke, the latter half of it. But Arya HAS some sociopathic qualities. But tbh, I think we all do. I get it now. Not always easy to tell when someone's being sarcastic or not on the internet and we all tend to do sarcasm and poking fun at the show and characters here. It's all good. I suppose if one wanted to get really technical about it, she could have some sociopathic tendencies that have manifested itself in her deep revenge motivation based on trauma as a kid experiencing all those bloody deaths and whatnot. But I tend to try and veer away from those sorts of labeling things because psychology is a tricky thing even the professionals in the field interpret differently based on who you study.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 20:58:41 GMT
I get it now. Not always easy to tell when someone's being sarcastic or not on the internet and we all tend to do sarcasm and poking fun at the show and characters here. It's all good. I suppose if one wanted to get really technical about it, she could have some sociopathic tendencies that have manifested itself in her deep revenge motivation based on trauma as a kid experiencing all those bloody deaths and whatnot. But I tend to try and veer away from those sorts of labeling things because psychology is a tricky thing even the professionals in the field interpret differently based on who you study. GrrM's made the connection before between Arya and child soldiers, which even if she's older in the show is still a valid comparison in many ways. The Faceless Men definitely are directing her trauma and emotional immaturity in a pretty violent, antisocial direction. But just like child soldiers can be rehabilitated into society and live relatively normal lives afterwards, it's possible that Arya could too. It doesn't mean she will of course but the possibility's there for. Which will make it even sadder if she dies really...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 21:03:33 GMT
I get it now. Not always easy to tell when someone's being sarcastic or not on the internet and we all tend to do sarcasm and poking fun at the show and characters here. It's all good. I suppose if one wanted to get really technical about it, she could have some sociopathic tendencies that have manifested itself in her deep revenge motivation based on trauma as a kid experiencing all those bloody deaths and whatnot. But I tend to try and veer away from those sorts of labeling things because psychology is a tricky thing even the professionals in the field interpret differently based on who you study. GrrM's made the connection before between Arya and child soldiers, which even if she's older in the show is still a valid comparison in many ways. The Faceless Men definitely are directing her trauma and emotional immaturity in a pretty violent, antisocial direction. But just like child soldiers can be rehabilitated into society and live relatively normal lives afterwards, it's possible that Arya could too. It doesn't mean she will of course but the possibility's there for. Which will make it even sadder if she dies really... I think it was Enid who disliked Alt-Shift-X's summary/theory about that very thing and I have to say it makes me sad too. I don't want Arya to go down some horrible maniac path but I'm completely prepared for it if that's how GRRM writes it. I just want her to return home to Winterfell and get another chance at Stark life even if it's not as the innocent girl she was before. She can help kill people with the wild wolf Rickon! But all that psychological speculation aside, I still appreciate the message Maisie's trying to get across about sexism in the Hollywood industry.
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Post by Enid on Aug 22, 2015 22:00:10 GMT
A. Maisie is right when she says that there are a lot of female roles in tv and cinema which only attribute is to be hot. While I don't think those roles will ever go away, it's good that more people are talking about all the sexism that exists in the entertainment industry. Maisie knows what she is talking about.
B. People who call Arya a sociopath/psychopath should look up what those terms actually mean. Because that way they'd realize none of them can be applied to Arya.
C. Women are just as complex as men, and the idea that a woman/girl is too much of a tomboy/passive is really offensive. We are just as diverse and different as men, saying that one kind of girl is a wrong role model for other women/girls is like saying that one kind of women is bad and others should avoid being that way, which is bullshit. Both Sansa and Arya have their flaws but they are still great female characters and both of them are good role models.
D. The idea that only "tomboys" are respected and "traditionally feminine" women aren't is simply false. For the longest time women who didn't fit the mold that society tried to impose on them were humiliated and ignored, the only reason the "tomboy" became a cliche for "strong female character" is because we live in a sexist society that thinks the only way a woman can be strong is if she acts like a man, which is stupid as fuck. But saying that people should root for women who embrace their femininity instead of women who defy those conventions won't solve the problem. What will solve the problem is proving that women can be strong no matter what they wear or what they like. Period.
E. Yes @envie, I was the one who said that video about Arya dying and living in Nymeria was bullshit, and I still think the same.
PS: if anyone wants to see a tv show that depicts all kinds of women as real people I recommend Orange is the New Black.
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Post by Basil on Aug 22, 2015 22:29:54 GMT
C. Women are just as complex as men, and the idea that a woman/girl is too much of a tomboy/passive is really offensive. We are just as diverse and different as men, saying that one kind of girl is a wrong role model for other women/girls is like saying that one kind of women is bad and others should avoid being that way, which is bullshit. Both Sansa and Arya have their flaws but they are still great female characters and both of them are good role models. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I am sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 22:45:39 GMT
I love Arya, but really, she is no role model. Although I agree with everything else Maisie says in this article More and more people are speaking up against Hollywood sexism these days and it is great to see. Long may it continue and I hope it has a lasting impact on the industry. Although I don't think the idea of sacrificing your femininity in order to be tough is even remotely feminist. That just permeates the idea that femininity is less valuable than masculinity which goes against the entire basis of feminism. I think of all the female characters, Daenerys is the one that wins the most feminism points here as she's tougher than most male characters and she's still very feminine. The "tough female character" is usually pretty butch and Daenerys is not that. Arya's feminism comes from her unwillingness to conform to gender roles and challenging the norm. Her resistance to becoming nothing more than a glorified baby maker is, IMO, more admirable than her willingness to kill and fight, but that's just me. I don't think that's a side to her that is celebrated often enough amongst fans.
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Post by Admin on Aug 22, 2015 22:49:11 GMT
Umm...women are more complex than men, though. Not saying it's bad or anything but it's just a thing I observed. And being more complex is not a better thing, really.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 22:54:21 GMT
Umm...women are more complex than men, though. Not saying it's bad or anything but it's just a thing I observed. And being more complex is not a better thing, really. More complex in what way? That's not what I've observed at all. I've met a lot of complex men and women in my life. That has nothing to do with sex and gender, IMO.
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Post by Enid on Aug 22, 2015 22:57:01 GMT
I didn't mean to offend anyone, I am sorry. I know you didn't, and I'm sorry I snapped, but this whole issue is kind of delicate for me. I love Arya, but really, she is no role model. Although I agree with everything else Maisie says in this article More and more people are speaking up against Hollywood sexism these days and it is great to see. Long may it continue and I hope it has a lasting impact on the industry. Although I don't think the idea of sacrificing your femininity in order to be tough is even remotely feminist. That just permeates the idea that femininity is less valuable than masculinity which goes against the entire basis of feminism. I think of all the female characters, Daenerys is the one that wins the most feminism points here as she's tougher than most male characters and she's still very feminine. The "tough female character" is usually pretty butch and Daenerys is not that. Arya's feminism comes from her unwillingness to conform to gender roles and challenging the norm. Her resistance to becoming nothing more than a glorified baby maker is, IMO, more admirable than her willingness to kill and fight, but that's just me. I don't think that's a side to her that is celebrated often enough amongst fans. So women who are tough had to sacrifice their femininity to do it? a woman can't be tough and feminine? or just born that way, not fitting into what society considers feminine? why are women who do not fit into what society thinks a woman should be less feminist than women who do?
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