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Post by Basil on Aug 23, 2015 17:34:10 GMT
I'm biased, but I think we should all aspire to be more like Catelyn. Haha - you are so cute. You do realize many of those over in the purist-land would tut-tut your ideals. To them, Catelyn started the entire war. One could argue the war started much further back than her taking Tyrion hostage ... but it ends up becoming a chicken or egg kind of pointless argument. Catelyn's heart was in the right place even if her actions got her and others in trouble. She was one of the more grounded human characters even with her inability to love Jon Snow. She felt deep regret for that and I'm so glad they showcased that on screen so well. This place is my home now, I don't want to go back there ever again. The pure, unadulterated hatred for Catelyn over there nearly killed my love for the fandom.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 17:46:42 GMT
Basically Cat did start the war by telling Brandon not to kill LF. Or you could argue that Rhaegar the bastard started the war by kidnapping Lyanna. Or that Tywin started it. Or that Cersei did it. Hell, someone somewhere will find a way to accuse Brown Ben.
It doesn't matter. The war started.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 17:52:58 GMT
Basically Cat did start the war by telling Brandon not to kill LF. Or you could argue that Rhaegar the bastard started the war by kidnapping Lyanna. Or that Tywin started it. Or that Cersei did it. Hell, someone somewhere will find a way to accuse Brown Ben. It doesn't matter. The war started. Daenys the Dreamer started the war by dreaming of the Doom and getting the Targaryens the fuck out of Valyria.
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Post by Basil on Aug 23, 2015 17:57:50 GMT
Basically Cat did start the war by telling Brandon not to kill LF. Or you could argue that Rhaegar the bastard started the war by kidnapping Lyanna. Or that Tywin started it. Or that Cersei did it. Hell, someone somewhere will find a way to accuse Brown Ben. It doesn't matter. The war started. No, it was Hoster Tully who started the war by forcing Lysa to drink moon tea, which made her paranoid and insane. Or let's go further back, it was Aegon the Conqueror who started the war, had he never invaded Westeros, The War of the Five Kings never would've happened. But seriously, it was an unfortunate series of events that started the war, you can't just point at a single character and say that he or she is responsible for everything. Catelyn played a part in all of this, I'm not denying that, but so did Ned, Robb, Stannis, Renly, Jaime, Cersei, Robert, Lysa, Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, Tyrion, Balon, fucking Joffrey - even Bran, for disobeying his mother and climbing the tower.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 18:35:38 GMT
Basically Cat did start the war by telling Brandon not to kill LF. Or you could argue that Rhaegar the bastard started the war by kidnapping Lyanna. Or that Tywin started it. Or that Cersei did it. Hell, someone somewhere will find a way to accuse Brown Ben. It doesn't matter. The war started. I blame Uncle Harbert. If he had just let chibi!Stannis keep Proudwing then none of this would have happened! In all honesty, WotFK was caused by a plethora of issues, some of which existed a good while before RR, some of which are more recent. A war was inevitable once Robert was dead IMO. Joffrey and Cersei were such inept rulers that they would of riled the North and Riverlands into rebellion if the show is anything to go by, not to mention the Tyrell's had been trying to wed Margaery to Robert before Renly's rebellion. I believe Renly would rebel either way, given how his book rebellion began before he knew about Cersei's incest. Stannis seemed to hate the Lannisters and Cersei in particular and according to Tywin he was long percieved as a threat to Joffrey's reign. The Dornish despised the Lannisters for RR and that was not going to change, especially when a half Lannister (or full blooded Lannister) sat the Iron Throne, the Arryns are almost extinct and most Vale high lords, like Royce seem to dislike, or at least be dobious of the Lannisters. The war was caused by a plethora of half buried grievances and issues. These were just exploited by people, particularly Petyr Baelish to serve their own ends.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 19:03:45 GMT
Actually the war was started by Roose.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 19:53:12 GMT
I don't think there's any character in ASOIAF you should idolize. Brienne is probably the only one who I would consider worthy of being a role model. Brienne is the truest knight in the book. However, she does let her honor cave sometimes for mercy. It's unfortunate that the decision to have her defeat two favorite characters in the show has made so many people dislike her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 20:00:13 GMT
Brienne is probably the only one who I would consider worthy of being a role model. Brienne is the truest knight in the book. However, she does let her honor cave sometimes for mercy. It's unfortunate that the decision to have her defeat two favorite characters in the show has made so many people dislike her. Tbh I disliked show Brienne even before Sandor and Stan accidents.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 20:06:34 GMT
Brienne is the truest knight in the book. However, she does let her honor cave sometimes for mercy. It's unfortunate that the decision to have her defeat two favorite characters in the show has made so many people dislike her. Tbh I disliked show Brienne even before Sandor and Stan accidents. I didn't mean to insinuate that was the only reason people dislike her. But I think a lot of people dislike her for that. I think of Brienne and the Hound as foils, which is why it was brilliant to me that they fought. They both suffered as children (though the Hound suffered in much more brutal ways). They both became these giant warriors looking for people to serve and protect. They're both loyal. She took on the characteristics of a knight, though she could't be one. He, on the other hand, hates knights because he sees the hypocrisy in most knights and refuses to become one. He does a lot of honorable things, though, mixed in with the dishonorable. He can't stand to see someone small bullied.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2015 22:01:25 GMT
Tbh I disliked show Brienne even before Sandor and Stan accidents. I didn't mean to insinuate that was the only reason people dislike her. But I think a lot of people dislike her for that. I think of Brienne and the Hound as foils, which is why it was brilliant to me that they fought. They both suffered as children (though the Hound suffered in much more brutal ways). They both became these giant warriors looking for people to serve and protect. They're both loyal. She took on the characteristics of a knight, though she could't be one. He, on the other hand, hates knights because he sees the hypocrisy in most knights and refuses to become one. He does a lot of honorable things, though, mixed in with the dishonorable. He can't stand to see someone small bullied. Like Arya and Sansa, I have often thought of Brienne and Sandor as two sides of a similar coin for the reasons you pointed out Witchy. Sandor could have been a knight had he wanted to be but refused on principal of how hypocritical most of them are, and Brienne wanted to be one and couldn't, somewhat disillusioned by the 'honor' she thought knights were supposed to be and yet also found not many of them had. Isn't it beautiful how both of them ended up with Arya and Sansa in some way too? Arya who doesn't want to be a lady and Sansa who does ... both learning that chivalry and honor doesn't mean shit even to Lords, Ladies and Knights.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2015 13:32:18 GMT
I didn't mean to insinuate that was the only reason people dislike her. But I think a lot of people dislike her for that. I think of Brienne and the Hound as foils, which is why it was brilliant to me that they fought. They both suffered as children (though the Hound suffered in much more brutal ways). They both became these giant warriors looking for people to serve and protect. They're both loyal. She took on the characteristics of a knight, though she could't be one. He, on the other hand, hates knights because he sees the hypocrisy in most knights and refuses to become one. He does a lot of honorable things, though, mixed in with the dishonorable. He can't stand to see someone small bullied. Like Arya and Sansa, I have often thought of Brienne and Sandor as two sides of a similar coin for the reasons you pointed out Witchy. Sandor could have been a knight had he wanted to be but refused on principal of how hypocritical most of them are, and Brienne wanted to be one and couldn't, somewhat disillusioned by the 'honor' she thought knights were supposed to be and yet also found not many of them had. Isn't it beautiful how both of them ended up with Arya and Sansa in some way too? Arya who doesn't want to be a lady and Sansa who does ... both learning that chivalry and honor doesn't mean shit even to Lords, Ladies and Knights. Yes, I love that. I love all the Stark children protectors and there have been many. Back to the original thread, there are things about Arya one can admire, but I certainly wouldn't call her a role model. However, I think that Maisie is right that she got really lucky to get a role like this one, that doesn't rely on being typical, because even though she's turning into a lovely woman, she doesn't have that "hot" look that Sophie has and that has become almost required to get a good role. Sophie is doubly blessed with natural acting ability and the look. Something that bothers me about the current brand of feminism that is so popular is the idea that women have to be able to physically compete with men to be worth something. It's almost as bad as saying we have to be pretty to be worth something. I was born with a small body, and no amount of judo is going to allow me to kick a big man's ass. But I still have value. We all know that, but do the people who make super hero movies know that?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2015 13:38:47 GMT
Like Arya and Sansa, I have often thought of Brienne and Sandor as two sides of a similar coin for the reasons you pointed out Witchy. Sandor could have been a knight had he wanted to be but refused on principal of how hypocritical most of them are, and Brienne wanted to be one and couldn't, somewhat disillusioned by the 'honor' she thought knights were supposed to be and yet also found not many of them had. Isn't it beautiful how both of them ended up with Arya and Sansa in some way too? Arya who doesn't want to be a lady and Sansa who does ... both learning that chivalry and honor doesn't mean shit even to Lords, Ladies and Knights. Yes, I love that. I love all the Stark children protectors and there have been many. Back to the original thread, there are things about Arya one can admire, but I certainly wouldn't call her a role model. However, I think that Maisie is right that she got really lucky to get a role like this one, that doesn't rely on being typical, because even though she's turning into a lovely woman, she doesn't have that "hot" look that Sophie has and that has become almost required to get a good role. Sophie is doubly blessed with natural acting ability and the look. Something that bothers me about the current brand of feminism that is so popular is the idea that women have to be able to physically compete with men to be worth something. It's almost as bad as saying we have to be pretty to be worth something. I was born with a small body, and no amount of judo is going to allow me to kick a big man's ass. But I still have value. We all know that, but do the people who make super hero movies know that? I really think Maisie was referring more to Arya's "role" as being a role model and not Arya's actual character. I think there's some confusion there from many posting replies and I want to clarify for her ... she's happy she got a great role as a kid brand new to the industry that wasn't a 'cute girl' or 'hot girl' and that female actors should not have to feel obliged to fill only the "hot piece" roles even if they are hot. To go further with what you said, it's true Maisie is not the same sort of stunning beauty that Sophie is but she has a certain attraction about her that fits well for Arya so she's again, lucky to have been the right fit. Sophie is a great actor and she has, like Sansa her character, learned over the years that she's more than just a "hot piece" (love that tag from Maisie haha) ... she's learned that being a beautiful girl isn't all there is to it and that itself is pretty amazing how much it reflects Sansa as a character too. Sansa is not a role model, but Sophie playing her as a strong woman in her own right definitely is as is Maisie.
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