|
|
Post by Enid on Jun 11, 2015 13:53:20 GMT
Mel has always had her pyromaniac sight on Shireen, so my opinion of her hasn't changed. In her mind, she wasn't killing an innocent girl, she was washing away her sins and giving her god an offering. Of course she was happy, she is a religious nut who doesn't care about the people she burns. The Faith Militant is child's play compared to her. The fact that she actually thinks it was necessary and that "sacrificing" Shireen will benefit Stannis and the fight against the White Walkers doesn't change the fact that she burned a little girl and enjoyed it.
Stannis is more difficult. I admit he was never among my favourites in the books or the show so I never thought much about him. I don't think my opinion of him has changed basically because I barely have an opinion about his personality. I admit I can't decide if BookStannis would sacrifice Shireen or not.
So yeah. this is my great contribution to this thread, I have no idea what to think :-S
|
|
|
|
Post by janicia on Jun 11, 2015 14:00:47 GMT
I just never honestly bought that Stannis truly believed he was "The One" like Melisandre did. He even doubted her many times on both the show and in the books. I would be far less upset at a Stannis, who like Selyse, was a fanaticism blinded and driven follower who praises "The Lord of Light" at every turn the way Mel and Selyse do because then I would angrily dismiss his actions as the same crazy shit Melisandre does. He NEVER said, not once, he believed he was the one or that his destiny revolved around Melisandre's prophecies. He only ever said he believed his destiny was to rule. I think he's bullshitted his way through it and has been a skeptic going along with it until the very end and then weirdly does a 180 after saying in both the show and the books he will not burn his daughter. Whether or not what he did was wrong or right, murder or sacrifice - enough people agree it came across wrong and felt wrong and was wrong. That's all the more there is to it. Yeah, that is one of the interesting questions with both Stannis and Melissandre. What do they really believe? Melissandre became a lot less evil to me in the books when I saw that she was earnest. At this point, Stannis does believe in Melissandre's blood magic and visions. Stannis has questioned her before and he's gone against her advice before, but that hasn't ever worked out for him, while her magic has worked. When Melissandre says that she needs a blood sacrifice to win a battle for him, Stannis believes he's making a choice between providing the sacrifice or losing the battle. I agree with you that Stannis probably doesn't truly believe he's "The One". But I think he has mostly blended that in his head with being King, which he certainly believes in. So I think we have a guy who believes he should be King by all the laws of Gods and men, and who believes in Melissandre's magic, and who kinda BSes his way through the hero stuff. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 18:51:23 GMT
Like I said before, I don't think D&D hate Stannis, but I loved this video  Id say this is the closest representation of D&D's logic we will ever get. A few more glimpses of D&D's logic Cersei = Westeros' best mother. EVER Dany = She's hot, she must be important Jon = He isnt hot in the books, lets make him hot so people know hes important Tyrion = Make sure he is always awesome, even when suffering erectile disfunction Arya = Too young to be hot, make her badass Sansa = As soon as the actress is hot (as soon as she is 18), she has a sex scene, or even better, a rape scene. That will piss people right off! Satin = What the fuck? We cant have people thinking Jon is gay! Make him Olly instead, and make sure he cant do the nasty with Jon I feel like the show has one guy sat their saying how characters should progress. Or should I say... two? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:07:48 GMT
Like I said before, I don't think D&D hate Stannis, but I loved this video This is amazing. Anyway, the Stannis the Mannis hype train is still moving! Bend the knee!  Yaaaay.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:29:29 GMT
I didn't expect to find much Mel-love here but I'm one of those people who thinks that to really like Stannis you have to like Mel. (Kind of like how some John Lennon fans say that to like John you can't hate Yoko because John loved her...except I don't actually like Yoko...I like Mel.)I don't like the idea that all of Stan's faults can be blamed on her. That's just not true. He makes his own decisions in the end. And, since she's actually a true believer, the ethos that guides her actions is much more consistent than his. It also annoys me when people say that she's wrong about everything. Yes, she's not as good a red priest as Moqorro or even Thoros, but she's still more-in-the know than almost every character in the series. So there.  Also there's such an air of mystery to her. She's like a female Varys. Plus magic and good looks. And I don't think she's one-note at all. Think for instance about her scene in ep. 507 when she's urging Stan to sacrifice Shireen. She's asking something terrible of him and yet she acts almost insulted when he questions her. "Do you doubt me? Still?" I thought that was a great layer to the character. I like Mel a ton. And not just because of Carice.  She's a ton of fun in the books too. Of course I'm not saying she's a good person, though I'd never call her evil or a psychopath or some of the words I've seen thrown around (specifically because psychopath is a particular clinical term that is WAY too often misused), but since when did being a good person have anything at all to do with being a good character? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:38:06 GMT
Melisandre is a GREAT character but I still dislike her. Maybe it seems like people are blurring that line of distinction too much?
I can't comment as easily on Stannis because again, things just changed so weirdly and I'm still standing in the peanut gallery on that one. I'm uncertain because my opinions of Stannis were already so different based on his show character vs. his book character and then the Shireen thing happened and now I'm all sorts of conflicted about it. I think had I been in the boat with the crew who was so certain she was going to burn a long time ago, I'd be less conflicted about Stannis. Still, overall, he remains a very interesting character because of this conflict and even the contradiction. It's more of GRRM's great ability to paint very gray characters overall which is exceptionally hard to pull off well on screen because it all depends on the script writing, the directing and the actors themselves ability. Stephen Dillane is exceptional. I am a little less certain, however at their writing choices for the scenes. It's left me confused and I don't think that was the intent of the show writers but I could be wrong. This is one of those 'wait and see' things for me I guess.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:40:51 GMT
Melisandre set an eagle on fire with her fucking mind. How could anyone hate her??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:46:10 GMT
I think Stannis is worse. At least Shireen wasn't Mel's daughter. She smirked during this. And who knows how many children she has burned in the past. She is a psycho. Also she is an annoying and one-dimensional character But she has perfect breasts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:48:22 GMT
If I saw somebody immolate an eagle with their head I'd be offering up sacrifices every Tuesday.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:48:56 GMT
She smirked during this. And who knows how many children she has burned in the past. She is a psycho. Also she is an annoying and one-dimensional character But she has nice breasts.
That's only one of my several pro-Mel counterarguments (see my above post for them  ). And they're perfect, not just nice. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:49:51 GMT
But she has nice breasts.
That's only one of my several pro-Mel counterarguments (see my above post for them ). And it's perfect, not nice. Aye, sire. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:52:00 GMT
I didn't expect to find much Mel-love here but I'm one of those people who thinks that to really like Stannis you have to like Mel. (Kind of like how some John Lennon fans say that to like John you can't hate Yoko because John loved her...except I don't actually like Yoko...I like Mel.)I don't like the idea that all of Stan's faults can be blamed on her. That's just not true. He makes his own decisions in the end. And, since she's actually a true believer, the ethos that guides her actions is much more consistent than his. It also annoys me when people say that she's wrong about everything. Yes, she's not as good a red priest as Moqorro or even Thoros, but she's still more-in-the know than almost every character in the series. So there. Also there's such an air of mystery to her. She's like a female Varys. Plus magic and good looks. And I don't think she's one-note at all. Think for instance about her scene in ep. 507 when she's urging Stan to sacrifice Shireen. She's asking something terrible of him and yet she acts almost insulted when he questions her. "Do you doubt me? Still?" I thought that was a great layer to the character. I like Mel a ton. And not just because of Carice. She's a ton of fun in the books too. Of course I'm not saying she's a good person, though I'd never call her evil or a psychopath or some of the words I've seen thrown around (specifically because psychopath is a particular clinical term that is WAY too often misused), but since when did being a good person have anything at all to do with being a good character?Agreed. Think about Roose for example. Or the Hound, Joffrey, Tyrion... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:54:15 GMT
Agreed. Think about Roose for example. Or the Hound, Joffrey, Tyrion... Roose is the best. If there's a good picture of him released for 510 or if he dies in it or something, I will make him my avatar again.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:54:15 GMT
"Is it Tuesday all ready? How about Byron, he got the last pork sausage in the chow line."
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 11, 2015 20:13:36 GMT
I didn't expect to find much Mel-love here but I'm one of those people who thinks that to really like Stannis you have to like Mel. (Kind of like how some John Lennon fans say that to like John you can't hate Yoko because John loved her...except I don't actually like Yoko...I like Mel.)I don't like the idea that all of Stan's faults can be blamed on her. That's just not true. He makes his own decisions in the end. And, since she's actually a true believer, the ethos that guides her actions is much more consistent than his. It also annoys me when people say that she's wrong about everything. Yes, she's not as good a red priest as Moqorro or even Thoros, but she's still more-in-the know than almost every character in the series. So there. Also there's such an air of mystery to her. She's like a female Varys. Plus magic and good looks. And I don't think she's one-note at all. Think for instance about her scene in ep. 507 when she's urging Stan to sacrifice Shireen. She's asking something terrible of him and yet she acts almost insulted when he questions her. " Do you doubt me? Still?" I thought that was a great layer to the character. I like Mel a ton. And not just because of Carice. She's a ton of fun in the books too. Of course I'm not saying she's a good person, t hough I'd never call her evil or a psychopath or some of the words I've seen thrown around (specifically because psychopath is a particular clinical term that is WAY too often misused), but since when did being a good person have anything at all to do with being a good character? Yeah. That layer is what they call arrogance. I know what a psychopath is and she is one, as is anyone smirking like an idiot when a child is burning to death. I know she has nice tits, but that doesn't change the fact that she is as evil as they come. |
|
sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
|
Post by sj4iy on Jun 11, 2015 20:17:13 GMT
I didn't expect to find much Mel-love here but I'm one of those people who thinks that to really like Stannis you have to like Mel. (Kind of like how some John Lennon fans say that to like John you can't hate Yoko because John loved her...except I don't actually like Yoko...I like Mel.)I don't like the idea that all of Stan's faults can be blamed on her. That's just not true. He makes his own decisions in the end. And, since she's actually a true believer, the ethos that guides her actions is much more consistent than his. It also annoys me when people say that she's wrong about everything. Yes, she's not as good a red priest as Moqorro or even Thoros, but she's still more-in-the know than almost every character in the series. So there. Also there's such an air of mystery to her. She's like a female Varys. Plus magic and good looks. And I don't think she's one-note at all. Think for instance about her scene in ep. 507 when she's urging Stan to sacrifice Shireen. She's asking something terrible of him and yet she acts almost insulted when he questions her. "Do you doubt me? Still?" I thought that was a great layer to the character. I like Mel a ton. And not just because of Carice. She's a ton of fun in the books too. Of course I'm not saying she's a good person, though I'd never call her evil or a psychopath or some of the words I've seen thrown around (specifically because psychopath is a particular clinical term that is WAY too often misused), but since when did being a good person have anything at all to do with being a good character? I agree...she's not at all simplistic or one-note...just her motivations. She's one of those people who are so committed to what they are doing that they never once question themselves, which is very rare to find in this day and age. She's easy to label 'evil', but she believes that the ends justify the means in a war for life against death...and truthfully, many would agree with her. If you had no doubt whatsoever that this man would be the one to save humanity and that all it took was the sacrifice of one innocent person, what would you do? How would you handle it? I've seen people theorizing that she 'allowed' Ramsay to burn the camps, but that's not her style. I think she is probably the most misunderstood character in the show. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 20:21:56 GMT
Show Mel, at least, is one of the characters I wouldn't think twice about labeling evil. But not because she wants to do evil things just for the sake of being evil, but because she wants to do evil things in the name of doing something good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, afterall. Just look at all the religious fanatics in this day and age who perform atrocities in the name of their god(s) that we would all quite happily label evil. She is no better than they are.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 20:24:34 GMT
Yeah. That layer is what they call arrogance. I know what a psychopath is and she is one, as is anyone smirking like an idiot when a child is burning to death. I know she has nice tits, but that doesn't change the fact that she is as evil as they come.If that were my only reason for liking her or defending her, I'd be going around saying that the girl who flashed Jory in ep. 105 was a great character. Which I've never said. I am smitten with Carice and with the character of Mel in the books and show but it goes beyond just that. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jun 11, 2015 20:27:16 GMT
Yeah. That layer is what they call arrogance. I know what a psychopath is and she is one, as is anyone smirking like an idiot when a child is burning to death. I know she has nice tits, but that doesn't change the fact that she is as evil as they come.If that were my only reason for liking her or defending her, I'd be going around saying that the girl who flashed Jory in ep. 105 was a great character. Which I've never said. I am smitten with Carice and with the character of Mel in the books and show but it goes beyond just that. That girl > Mel, in every way btw |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 20:28:06 GMT
Show Mel, at least, is one of the characters I wouldn't think twice about labeling evil. But not because she wants to do evil things just for the sake of being evil, but because she wants to do evil things in the name of doing something good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, afterall. Just look at all the religious fanatics in this day and age who perform atrocities in the name of their god(s) that we would all quite happily label evil. She is no better than they are. In a way, but she has actual tangible power that pays off. It's not all on faith. There are actual rewards that come from her atrocities. Which, if you're a very harsh utilitarian, makes them worthwhile.
|
|
She's a ton of fun in the books too.
). And they're perfect, not just nice.
