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Post by Nezzer on Jun 11, 2015 2:35:21 GMT
Like I said before, I don't think D&D hate Stannis, but I loved this video  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 3:02:04 GMT
I just never honestly bought that Stannis truly believed he was "The One" like Melisandre did. He even doubted her many times on both the show and in the books. I would be far less upset at a Stannis, who like Selyse, was a fanaticism blinded and driven follower who praises "The Lord of Light" at every turn the way Mel and Selyse do because then I would angrily dismiss his actions as the same crazy shit Melisandre does. He NEVER said, not once, he believed he was the one or that his destiny revolved around Melisandre's prophecies. He only ever said he believed his destiny was to rule. I think he's bullshitted his way through it and has been a skeptic going along with it until the very end and then weirdly does a 180 after saying in both the show and the books he will not burn his daughter. Whether or not what he did was wrong or right, murder or sacrifice - enough people agree it came across wrong and felt wrong and was wrong. That's all the more there is to it. He met Jon on top of the Wall, pointed North and said "there is the enemy I was born to fight, demons of ice and snow". Ok - point given. Maybe I'm reading it way differently than others. It's clear from the poll results the opinions are all over the place on this one so I'm satisfied we've tried to reason it out a bit and it's still just a mess haha.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 6:39:58 GMT
I think the decision was a game changer. Theres never gonna be another get behind him push for the guy. But I think the importance of the scene was the duty and importance placed on it. Stannis believes he is azor ahai. He has to sit the iron throne to save his kingdom. To do that he must defeat the boltons. To defeat the boltons he must take winterfell. Of course at his current state he is doomed. Hes always been a tragic hero The act is one of bitterness. He is so torn that its rending to watch. When he hugs Shireen and says forgive me. The despair on his face as she burns. Its awful. Ome thing a lot of people miss is that he doesnt burn her out of his own desire. He does it out of duty. Any other option he would of taken, but he is assured this is the only one. He is faced with this as the only option. His men are starving and freezing to death, the Boltons are using guerrilla tactics to deplete them futher. He cant march back to castle black for lack of supplies or forward due to the weather. His army is trapped. It was either this, or watch 6000 men slowly die. My only question, where were the northern lords who supposedly love the Starks? I cant hate Stannis. I've tried. Pity is the only thing I feel for the guy. From the start he has known his destiny would consume him. And I fucking hate that all along Mel has hinted at this being the only way, but never once told him the truth. I also hate how D&D threw George straight under the bus and focused on how he told them it happened. Youre fooling no one. I guarantee you that come the burning in the books, it wont be Stannis giving the order. I guarantee you. You make a good argument, but I don't think Stannis was motivated by saving 6000 lives. If he was trying to save lives, he wouldn't be perpetrating a civil war. In the Battle of Blackwater, Stannis calmly assessed that it would cost thousands of lives to continue the assault after the wildfire was set alight, but he didn't hesitate. It seems like Stannis had the choice of buying fewer mercenaries and more supplies so he could save the Wall and then winter there, but instead Stannis skimped on supplies and bought a bigger army so he could be more aggressive. And Stannis marched out into oncoming winter to besiege Winterfell knowing that this was likely to cause thousands of casualties. I don't think you can get away from the idea that Stannis does what he does in order to become king. He might believe that he is the prophesied leader that will save the world, and he can only do that once he's king. He certainly believes that he can run the country better than the current regime, and I agree with him. And to Stannis' credit, it seems like he only became fixated on his kingship once he realized that he was Robert's rightful heir. But the Stannis we know just isn't ok with a world in which thousands of lives are saved and Stannis will never be king. Oh yeah, Stannis is motivated purely by becoming king. But his logic is that he needs to be King to stop the White Walkers. Hes always had a fixated mindset. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 6:48:48 GMT
You make a good argument, but I don't think Stannis was motivated by saving 6000 lives. If he was trying to save lives, he wouldn't be perpetrating a civil war. In the Battle of Blackwater, Stannis calmly assessed that it would cost thousands of lives to continue the assault after the wildfire was set alight, but he didn't hesitate. It seems like Stannis had the choice of buying fewer mercenaries and more supplies so he could save the Wall and then winter there, but instead Stannis skimped on supplies and bought a bigger army so he could be more aggressive. And Stannis marched out into oncoming winter to besiege Winterfell knowing that this was likely to cause thousands of casualties. I don't think you can get away from the idea that Stannis does what he does in order to become king. He might believe that he is the prophesied leader that will save the world, and he can only do that once he's king. He certainly believes that he can run the country better than the current regime, and I agree with him. And to Stannis' credit, it seems like he only became fixated on his kingship once he realized that he was Robert's rightful heir. But the Stannis we know just isn't ok with a world in which thousands of lives are saved and Stannis will never be king. Oh yeah, Stannis is motivated purely by becoming king. But his logic is that he needs to be King to stop the White Walkers. Hes always had a fixated mindset. I disagree here. He was so dead set on becoming king he was willing to kill his own brother, and that was before he even knew about the threat in the north. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:06:50 GMT
Oh yeah, Stannis is motivated purely by becoming king. But his logic is that he needs to be King to stop the White Walkers. Hes always had a fixated mindset. I disagree here. He was so dead set on becoming king he was willing to kill his own brother, and that was before he even knew about the threat in the north. That was justified. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:09:27 GMT
I disagree here. He was so dead set on becoming king he was willing to kill his own brother, and that was before he even knew about the threat in the north. That was justified. Only by using the same harsh utilitarian logic that underlies his latest controversial act... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:13:27 GMT
Only by using the same harsh utilitarian logic that underlies his latest controversial act... No. Renly was to kill him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:18:03 GMT
Renly might have executed Stannis if he had won.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:19:43 GMT
Only by using the same harsh utilitarian logic that underlies his latest controversial act... No. Renly was to kill him. In battle though, not by assassination. Stan and Renly were both being very petty then as Cat rightly pointed out. They chose to go against one another and even though Renly openly said that "might is right" was his justification, Stan proved himself to believe in the same by having him killed. Neither really cared much for the greater good then, though both rationalized it that way.
I like them both and like Stan better...but I'm just saying. He was never that good a guy. Which in many ways is why, I think at least, he's so interesting.
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 11, 2015 7:30:15 GMT
Renly would have Loras kill Stannis on the battlefield. I never had a problem with Renly being shadowbaby'd, but I have to say that I hate these shadowbabies as plot devices. It would've been more interesting if Mel managed to control Brienne's mind (not like warging, she should be awake and aware of her actions) and make her kill Renly herself. That would've been much cooler IMHO and much more interesting to Brienne's character to know she killed Renly with her own hands even though she was being mind controlled.
I also had a problem with Stannis using a shadowbaby against Cortnay Penrose. Renly had it coming, but Penrose accepted to surrender Storm's End if Stannis (or a champion) defeated him in single combat. I thought Stannis was not a Mannis and acted very cowardly to refuse to fight an old man. That was the only time he made me hate him for a while.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 7:33:33 GMT
Oh yeah, Stannis is motivated purely by becoming king. But his logic is that he needs to be King to stop the White Walkers. Hes always had a fixated mindset. I disagree here. He was so dead set on becoming king he was willing to kill his own brother, and that was before he even knew about the threat in the north. This I have to contest. From the very first time we see Stan, who is sat telling him that he is the son of fire, the lords chosen and all that stuff? Melisandre. I think Stannis always considered it his destiny to sit on the throne from that point onward. Whether he knows about the Others is regardless. He believes the darkness to be the Lannisters, or more specifically the royal bastards. |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 11, 2015 9:36:39 GMT
Anyway, the Stannis the Mannis hype train is still moving! Bend the knee!  |
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Post by Admin on Jun 11, 2015 9:51:46 GMT
Fucking D&D. An episode ago this shot would have floored. Now I don't even wanna look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 9:55:33 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre!  |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 11, 2015 10:08:49 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre! She's the only evil character I hate now. I love all the villains, especially the Boltons, but Mel has to die :-S |
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 11, 2015 11:38:09 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre! Lol, I think I might be one of the few people who don't think of either of them differently than I did before. Nor did I ever hate them...I just didn't like them or support them because I could see that they were using "the ends justify the means" course of action from the start, and that it would lead somewhere bad eventually. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 11:43:07 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre! Lol, I think I might be one of the few people who don't think of either of them differently than I did before. Nor did I ever hate them...I just didn't like them or support them because I could see that they were using "the ends justify the means" course of action from the start, and that it would lead somewhere bad eventually. Same for me, except I support and like Stannis. Mel I've always hated. But it's really hard to hate her because of Carice... |
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Post by Admin on Jun 11, 2015 11:46:49 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre! She's the worst person in the show. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 11:55:03 GMT
How about Melisandre, folks? I just love Melisandre! She's the worst person in the show. I think Stannis is worse. At least Shireen wasn't Mel's daughter. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 11, 2015 12:59:40 GMT
She's the worst person in the show. I think Stannis is worse. At least Shireen wasn't Mel's daughter. She smirked during this. And who knows how many children she has burned in the past. She is a psycho. Also she is an annoying and one-dimensional character |
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