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Post by Admin on Jun 10, 2015 17:56:33 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 17:57:47 GMT
Guys, stop fighting, Stannis wouldn't want this.
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Post by Admin on Jun 10, 2015 17:59:11 GMT
Guys, stop fighting, Stannis wouldn't want this. Who is fighting? I seem to be getting a lecture in common sense and types of murder.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:00:01 GMT
Well. You mentioned Ned and he's a murderer, whether you like it or not. War is not murder. He did behead quite a few people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:01:01 GMT
Guys, stop fighting, Stannis wouldn't want this. Who is fighting? I seem to be getting a lecture in common sense and types of murder. Well things are getting a bit tense. This is an emotional topic. I suggest we all follow my lead and embrace whiskey.
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Post by Admin on Jun 10, 2015 18:02:12 GMT
Who is fighting? I seem to be getting a lecture in common sense and types of murder. Well things are getting a bit tense. This is an emotional topic. I suggest we all follow my lead and embrace whiskey. It's mid week - much like Meredith in the Office I swore I'm not gonna drink...during week days anymore
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:02:17 GMT
Why are we imposing legal and ethical terminology on fiction now? I think that is very bizarre. I'd like to treat the scene in question as fiction, since you know... Stannis is a fictional character. Looking at it from a literary-analytical standpoint, I have yet to read a convincing argument as to why Stannis's actions as a fictional character made any sense whatsoever. This is what is so upsetting about it. Could I imagine Stannis eventually burning Shireen under certain circumstances? Maybe. But the show and the books would have to show me HOW a character like Stannis can go from loving his daughter to burning her. The show didn't depict this change convincingly enough. THAT is why people are saying it is out of character. Because it made no sense, narratively. They didn't show the psychological steps Stannis had to undergo to end where he ended in 5x09. D&D as writers should have elaborated more on Stannis's struggle and make his moral downfall plausible. The writers failed at that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:03:15 GMT
Well things are getting a bit tense. This is an emotional topic. I suggest we all follow my lead and embrace whiskey. It's mid week - much like Meredith in the Office I swore I'm not gonna drink...during week days anymore This is my weekend so all systems go!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:06:27 GMT
He did behead quite a few people. Do we consider it murder when the government executes those found guilty? Upholding the law isn't murder.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:08:04 GMT
Why are we imposing legal and ethical terminology on fiction now? I think that is very bizarre. I'd like to treat the scene in question as fiction, since you know... Stannis is a fictional character. Looking it from a literary-analytical standpoint, I have yet to read a convincing argument as to why Stannis's actions as a fictional character made any sense whatsoever. This is what is so upsetting about it. Could I imagine Stannis eventually burning Shireen under certain circumstances? Maybe. But the show and the books would have to show me HOW a character like Stannis can go from loving his daughter to burning her. The show didn't depict this change convincingly enough. THAT is why people are saying it is out of character. Because it made no sense, narratively. They didn't show the psychological steps Stannis had to undergo to end where he ended in 5x09. D&D as writers should have elaborated more on Stannis's struggle and make his moral downfall plausible. The writers failed at that. And I have admitted as such -- it wasn't a great lead up to that point. However, one can argue that the scene with Shireen at the wall was less about "I love you" and more about Stannis' pride in not allowing someone to send away his daughter because it's his daughter and not because he loves her. I have yet to decide how I feel about it, but I had a good conversation with someone who saw it that way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 18:08:38 GMT
He did behead quite a few people. Do we consider it murder when the government executes those found guilty? Upholding the law isn't murder. Some do, some don't. This is more of an ethical question.
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valyrianshadow
Snark
"Seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 10, 2015 18:12:45 GMT
It's not just sullied. I've had multiple casual and hardcore unsullied tell me it was OOC. Stannis fan or not. The set up, as far as season 5 goes, was all wrong. Unsullied are mad that he went from "you are my daughter" to burning her. Now he's the asshole no one is rooting for. That's what 95% of the Unsullied are thinking.
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Post by arthucus on Jun 10, 2015 18:56:22 GMT
I thought the tender moments were out of character for book or show Stannis. The stuff he says about his men winning the throne for her if he dies always struck me as an expression of his political ambition. She was the heir, and his line could only survive through her. In the books, we know Stannis mostly from Davos's PoV, and he worships Stannis. I don't think he's reliable as a narrator for Stannis.
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sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 10, 2015 18:59:41 GMT
I thought the tender moments were out of character for book or show Stannis. The stuff he says about his men winning the throne for her if he dies always struck me as an expression of his political ambition. She was the heir, and his line could only survive through her. In the books, we know Stannis mostly from Davos's PoV, and he worships Stannis. I don't think he's reliable as a narrator for Stannis. This is a good point. It's harder to gauge the secondary characters with no view point, so we only view them through other characters' eyes. It can skew our opinion of them. Melisandre is one of those characters that was extremely difficult to understand until we got her own POV. Stannis is another.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 23:12:10 GMT
Apparently murder = murder, I suppose there is zero difference between Dany mercy killing Drogo and I don't know, Ramsay flaying that old lady to death. Killing in war is different from murder is different from euthanasia. That's called common sense. Keep up. huddsy - you said you came over here from that-forum-which-shall-not-be-named because you were hoping to get away from the terrible attitudes over there yet here you are displaying quite a bit of the same I see happening over there. Please leave that stuff at the door here because we've all been getting along great without it. Secondly, you committed two of the fouls I see most often over there: 1. I don't agree with you so therefore I'm going to take my ball and go home (and then still come back to post some more anyways). 2. Call others well thought out opinions a "load of crap" and then refute those you disagree with as not common sense with snarky "keep up" endings is just insulting and antagonistic. I'd like to debate with you but because of how you post, I refrained from posting any replies at all for a few pages while you went at it with sati and that should indicate to you your methods aren't really very endearing to good forum participation and debate. It's great to argue, we all do here and many of us disagree with one another - but please try to do it without the stink that other place is famous for maybe?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 0:34:45 GMT
I think the decision was a game changer. Theres never gonna be another get behind him push for the guy. But I think the importance of the scene was the duty and importance placed on it. Stannis believes he is azor ahai. He has to sit the iron throne to save his kingdom. To do that he must defeat the boltons. To defeat the boltons he must take winterfell. Of course at his current state he is doomed. Hes always been a tragic hero The act is one of bitterness. He is so torn that its rending to watch. When he hugs Shireen and says forgive me. The despair on his face as she burns. Its awful. Ome thing a lot of people miss is that he doesnt burn her out of his own desire. He does it out of duty. Any other option he would of taken, but he is assured this is the only one. He is faced with this as the only option. His men are starving and freezing to death, the Boltons are using guerrilla tactics to deplete them futher. He cant march back to castle black for lack of supplies or forward due to the weather. His army is trapped. It was either this, or watch 6000 men slowly die. My only question, where were the northern lords who supposedly love the Starks? I cant hate Stannis. I've tried. Pity is the only thing I feel for the guy. From the start he has known his destiny would consume him. And I fucking hate that all along Mel has hinted at this being the only way, but never once told him the truth. I also hate how D&D threw George straight under the bus and focused on how he told them it happened. Youre fooling no one. I guarantee you that come the burning in the books, it wont be Stannis giving the order. I guarantee you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 0:55:17 GMT
Nearly every character is a murderer in Asoiaf. And your point? I've never said Stannis is the only one. Many of them are. Doesn't change the fact that Stannis isn't some moral man. There is a difference between murder and sacrafice. Murder usually serves no purpose other than fulfilling self interest. Sacrafice is loosing something you deeply care about. I said it before and I'll say it again. The other option was waiting and watching 6000 men starve to death and the Bolton's to finish you off. Either way, Shireen would die.
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Post by janicia on Jun 11, 2015 1:13:31 GMT
I think the decision was a game changer. Theres never gonna be another get behind him push for the guy. But I think the importance of the scene was the duty and importance placed on it. Stannis believes he is azor ahai. He has to sit the iron throne to save his kingdom. To do that he must defeat the boltons. To defeat the boltons he must take winterfell. Of course at his current state he is doomed. Hes always been a tragic hero The act is one of bitterness. He is so torn that its rending to watch. When he hugs Shireen and says forgive me. The despair on his face as she burns. Its awful. Ome thing a lot of people miss is that he doesnt burn her out of his own desire. He does it out of duty. Any other option he would of taken, but he is assured this is the only one. He is faced with this as the only option. His men are starving and freezing to death, the Boltons are using guerrilla tactics to deplete them futher. He cant march back to castle black for lack of supplies or forward due to the weather. His army is trapped. It was either this, or watch 6000 men slowly die. My only question, where were the northern lords who supposedly love the Starks? I cant hate Stannis. I've tried. Pity is the only thing I feel for the guy. From the start he has known his destiny would consume him. And I fucking hate that all along Mel has hinted at this being the only way, but never once told him the truth. I also hate how D&D threw George straight under the bus and focused on how he told them it happened. Youre fooling no one. I guarantee you that come the burning in the books, it wont be Stannis giving the order. I guarantee you. You make a good argument, but I don't think Stannis was motivated by saving 6000 lives. If he was trying to save lives, he wouldn't be perpetrating a civil war. In the Battle of Blackwater, Stannis calmly assessed that it would cost thousands of lives to continue the assault after the wildfire was set alight, but he didn't hesitate. It seems like Stannis had the choice of buying fewer mercenaries and more supplies so he could save the Wall and then winter there, but instead Stannis skimped on supplies and bought a bigger army so he could be more aggressive. And Stannis marched out into oncoming winter to besiege Winterfell knowing that this was likely to cause thousands of casualties. I don't think you can get away from the idea that Stannis does what he does in order to become king. He might believe that he is the prophesied leader that will save the world, and he can only do that once he's king. He certainly believes that he can run the country better than the current regime, and I agree with him. And to Stannis' credit, it seems like he only became fixated on his kingship once he realized that he was Robert's rightful heir. But the Stannis we know just isn't ok with a world in which thousands of lives are saved and Stannis will never be king.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 1:22:46 GMT
I think the decision was a game changer. Theres never gonna be another get behind him push for the guy. But I think the importance of the scene was the duty and importance placed on it. Stannis believes he is azor ahai. He has to sit the iron throne to save his kingdom. To do that he must defeat the boltons. To defeat the boltons he must take winterfell. Of course at his current state he is doomed. Hes always been a tragic hero The act is one of bitterness. He is so torn that its rending to watch. When he hugs Shireen and says forgive me. The despair on his face as she burns. Its awful. Ome thing a lot of people miss is that he doesnt burn her out of his own desire. He does it out of duty. Any other option he would of taken, but he is assured this is the only one. He is faced with this as the only option. His men are starving and freezing to death, the Boltons are using guerrilla tactics to deplete them futher. He cant march back to castle black for lack of supplies or forward due to the weather. His army is trapped. It was either this, or watch 6000 men slowly die. My only question, where were the northern lords who supposedly love the Starks? I cant hate Stannis. I've tried. Pity is the only thing I feel for the guy. From the start he has known his destiny would consume him. And I fucking hate that all along Mel has hinted at this being the only way, but never once told him the truth. I also hate how D&D threw George straight under the bus and focused on how he told them it happened. Youre fooling no one. I guarantee you that come the burning in the books, it wont be Stannis giving the order. I guarantee you. You make a good argument, but I don't think Stannis was motivated by saving 6000 lives. If he was trying to save lives, he wouldn't be perpetrating a civil war. In the Battle of Blackwater, Stannis calmly assessed that it would cost thousands of lives to continue the assault after the wildfire was set alight, but he didn't hesitate. It seems like Stannis had the choice of buying fewer mercenaries and more supplies so he could save the Wall and then winter there, but instead Stannis skimped on supplies and bought a bigger army so he could be more aggressive. And Stannis marched out into oncoming winter to besiege Winterfell knowing that this was likely to cause thousands of casualties. I don't think you can get away from the idea that Stannis does what he does in order to become king. He might believe that he is the prophesied leader that will save the world, and he can only do that once he's king. He certainly believes that he can run the country better than the current regime, and I agree with him. And to Stannis' credit, it seems like he only became fixated on his kingship once he realized that he was Robert's rightful heir. But the Stannis we know just isn't ok with a world in which thousands of lives are saved and Stannis will never be king. I just never honestly bought that Stannis truly believed he was "The One" like Melisandre did. He even doubted her many times on both the show and in the books. I would be far less upset at a Stannis, who like Selyse, was a fanaticism blinded and driven follower who praises "The Lord of Light" at every turn the way Mel and Selyse do because then I would angrily dismiss his actions as the same crazy shit Melisandre does. He NEVER said, not once, he believed he was the one or that his destiny revolved around Melisandre's prophecies. He only ever said he believed his destiny was to rule. I think he's bullshitted his way through it and has been a skeptic going along with it until the very end and then weirdly does a 180 after saying in both the show and the books he will not burn his daughter. Whether or not what he did was wrong or right, murder or sacrifice - enough people agree it came across wrong and felt wrong and was wrong. That's all the more there is to it.
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 11, 2015 1:56:20 GMT
You make a good argument, but I don't think Stannis was motivated by saving 6000 lives. If he was trying to save lives, he wouldn't be perpetrating a civil war. In the Battle of Blackwater, Stannis calmly assessed that it would cost thousands of lives to continue the assault after the wildfire was set alight, but he didn't hesitate. It seems like Stannis had the choice of buying fewer mercenaries and more supplies so he could save the Wall and then winter there, but instead Stannis skimped on supplies and bought a bigger army so he could be more aggressive. And Stannis marched out into oncoming winter to besiege Winterfell knowing that this was likely to cause thousands of casualties. I don't think you can get away from the idea that Stannis does what he does in order to become king. He might believe that he is the prophesied leader that will save the world, and he can only do that once he's king. He certainly believes that he can run the country better than the current regime, and I agree with him. And to Stannis' credit, it seems like he only became fixated on his kingship once he realized that he was Robert's rightful heir. But the Stannis we know just isn't ok with a world in which thousands of lives are saved and Stannis will never be king. I just never honestly bought that Stannis truly believed he was "The One" like Melisandre did. He even doubted her many times on both the show and in the books. I would be far less upset at a Stannis, who like Selyse, was a fanaticism blinded and driven follower who praises "The Lord of Light" at every turn the way Mel and Selyse do because then I would angrily dismiss his actions as the same crazy shit Melisandre does. He NEVER said, not once, he believed he was the one or that his destiny revolved around Melisandre's prophecies. He only ever said he believed his destiny was to rule. I think he's bullshitted his way through it and has been a skeptic going along with it until the very end and then weirdly does a 180 after saying in both the show and the books he will not burn his daughter. Whether or not what he did was wrong or right, murder or sacrifice - enough people agree it came across wrong and felt wrong and was wrong. That's all the more there is to it. He met Jon on top of the Wall, pointed North and said "there is the enemy I was born to fight, demons of ice and snow".
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