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Post by Nezzer on Jun 12, 2015 22:48:53 GMT
Ok, so, after my super cool "I'm confused" post, I decided to put my brain to work because I felt kinda silly, and I think I finally have an answer. I don't think that bookStannis would burn his daughter mainly because, even though he does think he is the rightful king and considers protecting Westeros his duty, he doesn't seem to be a super-devoted follower of R'hllor. He believes in R'hllor, but his devotion is nothing compared to Selyse's and some of his men. BookStannis wouldn't allow Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen because he is not a fanatic, he puts limits to the things he is willing to do for his god, like burning unbelievers. So yeah, bookStannis would do a lot of things to protect the realm and get the throne, but sacrificing his daughter as an offering to his god is not among them, because he isn't really that pious. ShowStannis is different in that regard, the show has written him as someone who believes deeply in R'hllor and his messiah status, he always listens to Melisandre and is convinced everything she says is true. ShowStannis is more dedicated to R'hllor than bookStannis, and this is why I think it's believable for ShowStannis to sacrifice his own daughter, because his god demands a sacrifice, if he doesn't, he dies, if he dies, Westeros in doomed, and there is no one with king's blood in all his camp except for Shireen and himself. Is the Gendry situation all over again, except that this time the personal impact for Stannis is going to be much worse than if he had burned Gendry (at least I hope so). Now, if, for whatever reason, bookStannis became more of a fanatic, and had the same dilemma (dying or sacrificing his daughter believing that will allow him to survive and save the whole realm), would he do it? I think he might. But only if he becomes more of a fanatic, as he is in the books right now, no, I don't think he would let anyone touch his daughter. Despite everything I don't think show!Stannis is a fanatic, he only believes in the efficient of Mel's powers. He never calls R'hllor his god, not even as "Lord of Light". He always refers to him as "the fire god" or "her god". Stannis probably believes in his existence, but he doesn't seem to worship him. |
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serpounce
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Post by serpounce on Jun 12, 2015 22:58:52 GMT
No, this episode hasn't changed my opinion of Stannis but that's probably because I always believed he had this type of act in him all along. He's turned his back and many of his supporters and family members in the name of his duty to obtain the Iron Throne. I don't think that bookStannis would burn his daughter mainly because, even though he does think he is the rightful king and considers protecting Westeros his duty, he doesn't seem to be a super-devoted follower of R'hllor. He believes in R'hllor, but his devotion is nothing compared to Selyse's and some of his men. BookStannis wouldn't allow Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen because he is not a fanatic, he puts limits to the things he is willing to do for his god, like burning unbelievers. So yeah, bookStannis would do a lot of things to protect the realm and get the throne, but sacrificing his daughter as an offering to his god is not among them, because he isn't really that pious. I agree that Stannis is not a fanatic but I see this act differently than you do. I don't think he sacrificed Shireen because he's so pious and wants to please his god. That's Melisandre. I think he did it because he's convinced that R'hollor delivers and he wanted help. Melisandre has told him he lost at Blackwater because she wasn't there to call up R'hollor's power and he clearly wants to avoid that this time. He's doing it for the "blessing" as many people do in the real world, not because they're particularly dying to please their god. So it's his believe in the power not his desire to be a good disciple. It's not about being devoted, imo. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 14:13:18 GMT
Unless D&D drastically altered the outcome of BoI, Stannis won't burn Shireen.
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 15, 2015 14:23:03 GMT
Unless D&D drastically altered the outcome of BoI, Stannis won't burn Shireen. Which also probably means he will have no idea of her death or Selyse's (if they die before him). This changes almost everything except the troop situation. He will not be that dejected ruined character we saw last night, ready for death. Does that make it worse or better? I'm not sure yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 14:26:13 GMT
So this basically means Stannis wont be the one to burn Shireen and it will be Mel?
So in other words it, and Brienne ex machina were the final 'fuck you's to every Stannis fan.
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 15, 2015 14:54:41 GMT
So this basically means Stannis wont be the one to burn Shireen and it will be Mel? So in other words it, and Brienne ex machina were the final 'fuck you's to every Stannis fan. Yup. Sounds about right from where I'm standing. I said it before the episode and I'm definitely saying it forever now: I will never forgive D&D for this. They could put Lady Stoneheart on the Throne for all I care. The joy and half the respect I had for them is gone. D&D said he deserved it because he burned his daughter. They made that happen to him so of course they will say that. Some people saying watching Inside the Ep would help but it just made it worse. They didn't like Stannis from Day 1 and it's so obvious now. They only reason they gave him anything "good" to do was so they could shit on him in these final 2 episodes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 15:28:03 GMT
So this basically means Stannis wont be the one to burn Shireen and it will be Mel? So in other words it, and Brienne ex machina were the final 'fuck you's to every Stannis fan. Yup. Sounds about right from where I'm standing. I said it before the episode and I'm definitely saying it forever now: I will never forgive D&D for this. They could put Lady Stoneheart on the Throne for all I care. The joy and half the respect I had for them is gone. D&D said he deserved it because he burned his daughter. They made that happen to him so of course they will say that. Some people saying watching Inside the Ep would help but it just made it worse. They didn't like Stannis from Day 1 and it's so obvious now. They only reason they gave him anything "good" to do was so they could shit on him in these final 2 episodes. Jeez what hypocrites. He deserved to die. Well you for fuck's sake made him do it! Your invention! And GRRM saying that wouldnt make him a hypocrite because it is his story. D&D are just adapting it. I just can't... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 17:20:56 GMT
Terrible from D&D. For some reason this made me like bookStannis more.. and yeah I have made my decision of Stannis early on in the episode.. My opinion has changed, but I still support him. (He's dead, isn't he?  ) |
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Post by Enid on Jun 15, 2015 17:43:01 GMT
Terrible from D&D. For some reason this made me like bookStannis more.. and yeah I have made my decision of Stannis early on in the episode.. My opinion has changed, but I still support him. (He's dead, isn't he? ) he is: Q. How did it feel after several long seasons to finally meet an obligation? A. On the one hand it’s fantastic to see her reconcile something she has been carrying for all these seasons. That’s very satisfying. But once she finds out that she missed Sansa’s candle, as I’m sure she will, she will be even more crushed than when we saw her at the start of this season, having had Arya slip through her fingers. Brienne has been staring at that window waiting for the candle to appear for, well it feels like about three months but I think it’s probably only been about three weeks of standing there, staring. |
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Post by janicia on Jun 15, 2015 17:56:52 GMT
So this basically means Stannis wont be the one to burn Shireen and it will be Mel? So in other words it, and Brienne ex machina were the final 'fuck you's to every Stannis fan. Yup. Sounds about right from where I'm standing. I said it before the episode and I'm definitely saying it forever now: I will never forgive D&D for this. They could put Lady Stoneheart on the Throne for all I care. The joy and half the respect I had for them is gone. D&D said he deserved it because he burned his daughter. They made that happen to him so of course they will say that. Some people saying watching Inside the Ep would help but it just made it worse. They didn't like Stannis from Day 1 and it's so obvious now. They only reason they gave him anything "good" to do was so they could shit on him in these final 2 episodes. Might want to wait to read the book before making that kind of judgement. bookStannis did leave Shireen at the Wall with Melissandre knowing what he does about Melissandre's interest in burning his relatives alive. Stannis did send Davos off. Stannis did tell his man to buy mercenaries even if he heard that Stannis had died. Stannis neglected to engage Shireen to anybody, though that should have helped his war effort. We don't yet know what Stannis has already authorized Melissandre to do. But he had other options besides leaving her at the Wall with Melissandre and a bunch of fanatical soldiers - leave her at Dragonstone, boarding school in Bravos, engage her to a family that can protect her, surround her with non-fanatic soldiers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 18:53:21 GMT
Yup. Sounds about right from where I'm standing. I said it before the episode and I'm definitely saying it forever now: I will never forgive D&D for this. They could put Lady Stoneheart on the Throne for all I care. The joy and half the respect I had for them is gone. D&D said he deserved it because he burned his daughter. They made that happen to him so of course they will say that. Some people saying watching Inside the Ep would help but it just made it worse. They didn't like Stannis from Day 1 and it's so obvious now. They only reason they gave him anything "good" to do was so they could shit on him in these final 2 episodes. Might want to wait to read the book before making that kind of judgement. bookStannis did leave Shireen at the Wall with Melissandre knowing what he does about Melissandre's interest in burning his relatives alive. Stannis did send Davos off. Stannis did tell his man to buy mercenaries even if he heard that Stannis had died. Stannis neglected to engage Shireen to anybody, though that should have helped his war effort. We don't yet know what Stannis has already authorized Melissandre to do. But he had other options besides leaving her at the Wall with Melissandre and a bunch of fanatical soldiers - leave her at Dragonstone, boarding school in Bravos, engage her to a family that can protect her, surround her with non-fanatic soldiers. 1) Dragonstone was taken by the Lannisters. Stannis knew this was going to happen so leaving her would kill her regardless. 2) Engage Shireen to who? No one in Westeros wants to support him. The Tyrells wed the Lannisters, Trystane is to wed Myrcella, the Greyjoys have their own plans, Lysa Tully is a puppet for LF and the Northerners are split between him and the Boltons anyway. 3) Book Stannis doesnt visit Braavos so why send her there? 4) Surrounded by fanatic soldiers. Yes. But as far as we know, book Stannis has no reason to suspect that Mel or Selyse would ever burn her. Maybe Edric was a clue, but surely he believes his own men wouldnt willingly burn his daughter. |
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Post by janicia on Jun 15, 2015 19:08:22 GMT
Might want to wait to read the book before making that kind of judgement. bookStannis did leave Shireen at the Wall with Melissandre knowing what he does about Melissandre's interest in burning his relatives alive. Stannis did send Davos off. Stannis did tell his man to buy mercenaries even if he heard that Stannis had died. Stannis neglected to engage Shireen to anybody, though that should have helped his war effort. We don't yet know what Stannis has already authorized Melissandre to do. But he had other options besides leaving her at the Wall with Melissandre and a bunch of fanatical soldiers - leave her at Dragonstone, boarding school in Bravos, engage her to a family that can protect her, surround her with non-fanatic soldiers. 1) Dragonstone was taken by the Lannisters. Stannis knew this was going to happen so leaving her would kill her regardless. 2) Engage Shireen to who? No one in Westeros wants to support him. The Tyrells wed the Lannisters, Trystane is to wed Myrcella, the Greyjoys have their own plans, Lysa Tully is a puppet for LF and the Northerners are split between him and the Boltons anyway. 3) Book Stannis doesnt visit Braavos so why send her there? 4) Surrounded by fanatic soldiers. Yes. But as far as we know, book Stannis has no reason to suspect that Mel or Selyse would ever burn her. Maybe Edric was a clue, but surely he believes his own men wouldnt willingly burn his daughter. 1) The Tyrells were trying to take Dragonstone, but they were having trouble with it. And they weren't going to slaughter Shireen even if they did take it - she'd be a hostage. 2) Sure, Stannis isn't going to get an army in exchange for engaging Shireen to somebody. But he could try find a safe place for her to live. There is precedent - Tyrion tried the same thing with Myrcella. The Vale would be a pretty safe place for Shireen, and there are plenty of lesser houses that would protect her if she was engaged to their lordling. And making an engagement for Shireen would be a way of demonstrating that Stannis expects her to survive until adulthood. 3) Davos sent Edric Storm to Essos to get him away from Melissandre. Dany grew up in Essos to be safe from Robert. Stannis definitely had the option of sending Shireen to Essos. Stannis had swathes of time in which he wasn't doing anything, he had ships, he some money. 4) Davos and Jon both took one look at Melissandre and resorted to extreme measures to get people like Edric Storm, Mance' baby, and Maester Aemon away from her. Stannis left Shireen with Melissandre and didn't even give Shireen a non-fanatic bodyguard. He's either grossly negligent or he's reserving the option to sacrifice her. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 15, 2015 19:34:32 GMT
They made him burn his daughter so that Brienne wouldn't look like a bitch for killing him.
10/10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 21:30:08 GMT
They made him burn his daughter so that Brienne wouldn't look like a bitch for killing him. 10/10 Just like they made Meryn Trant be a sick sadistic pedophile so that Arya wouldn't look like a bitch for killing him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 21:38:56 GMT
They made him burn his daughter so that Brienne wouldn't look like a bitch for killing him. 10/10 Just like they made Meryn Trant be a sick sadistic pedophile so that Arya wouldn't look like a bitch for killing him. Eh...not really. |
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Post by Admin on Jun 15, 2015 21:42:23 GMT
Meryn was always a dick but that whole pedo aura was so unnecessary
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Post by Enid on Jun 15, 2015 21:55:30 GMT
Plenty of people wanted Meryn dead because of what he did to Syrio and Sansa, the sadist pedophile angle was pretty optional. And by optional I mean they could have cut it completely
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 22:02:14 GMT
Plenty of people wanted Meryn dead because of what he did to Syrio and Sansa, the sadist pedophile angle was pretty optional. And by optional I mean they could have cut it completely It was a setup for her to take one of the kids faces. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 15, 2015 22:05:47 GMT
Plenty of people wanted Meryn dead because of what he did to Syrio and Sansa, the sadist pedophile angle was pretty optional. And by optional I mean they could have cut it completely It was a setup for her to take one of the kids faces. They could also have her use the face of an adult. Maybe give Meryn some kind of fetish so that the brothel has to look for women with a specific trait. Meryn didn't need to be a pedophile. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 22:10:54 GMT
It was a setup for her to take one of the kids faces. They could also have her use the face of an adult. Maybe give Meryn some kind of fetish so that the brothel has to look for women with a specific trait. Meryn didn't need to be a pedophile. I think it looked better like this because of the body size/frame. |
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