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Post by breakfest on Jun 8, 2015 11:51:34 GMT
Uh guys, isn't it pretty obvious that he's doing it because he thinks it is his only chance to win the battle? I mean they are screwed logistically and only Mel's convictions and proven magical abilities give them hope in his mind.
"You will betray your family. You will betray everything you once held dear"
Yeah get angry at D&D's reasoning in the video, i agree that they put it badly, but his fluctuating mind is fully part of his character and what makes him fascinating and tragic rather than outright hateable. He had doubts about Gendry, his blood, but never really aired them to Davos. Now, in an even worse situation and seemingly his last hope, he does not even consider doing it until he thinks he must.
I understand that it's a really difficult thing to see a favourite character have to do, but I thought it was fully in character, and many fans predicted this may well be the outcome beforehand.
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Post by breakfest on Jun 8, 2015 11:52:52 GMT
Except that Gendry's blood had nothing to do with Robb and Joff dying, Mel saw their deaths in her fires, interpreted what she saw correctly for once, and used the leeches to make Stannis believe it was her who caused their deaths.I'm not happy with Shireen's death either, but this the least we can do is use actual arguments to criticize the scene That is the important part. He fully believes in it's power across the board. |
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Post by Basil on Jun 8, 2015 11:55:12 GMT
Except that Gendry's blood had nothing to do with Robb and Joff dying, Mel saw their deaths in her fires, interpreted what she saw correctly for once, and used the leeches to make Stannis believe it was her who caused their deaths. I'm not happy with Shireen's death either, but this the least we can do is use actual arguments to criticize the scene But if Stannis believed that Gendry's blood was enough to buy the deaths of three kings, why didn't he force Melisande to try something else first, anything, maybe even use Shireen's blood without killing her? He couldn't have known that it wouldn't have worked, for what he knew, it had already worked once, so why don't try once more. Why did he so quickly agree to sacrifice the life of his daughter? Thoros of Myr can raise people from the dead without sacrificing anything. There are other ways to use magic in this world, it's just that Melisandre seems to enjoy burning people. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 8, 2015 12:05:49 GMT
I doubt they had any leeches in the camp, and Stannis army was about to break. They couldn't march to WF, they couldn't go back to the Wall, and they had no food left so they couldn't wait until the storm passed either. Stannis felt that he had to do something, Mel told him that her god demanded a sacrifice with royal blood, and in the show Stannis does seem to believe in R'hllor. The only ones with royal blood were Shireen and himself.
As I said, I'm sad they killed Shireen. Maybe I'm not as upset as I would have been if I hadn't known it was going to happen beforehand, but I don't think it was sudden (they had been setting this up since season 4) and I don't think is so OOC for Stannis.
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Post by breakfest on Jun 8, 2015 12:11:30 GMT
He said this when Melisandre first suggested it. "There must be another way...leeches or something" to which she replies that this is the only way.
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Post by Enid on Jun 8, 2015 12:18:53 GMT
Eh... I think she secretly just wanted to bang Gendry. He's hot!  But seriously - I can't really get into that whole king's blood argument with people because it's contradictory in quite a few ways and I honestly think GRRM did that intentionally to make her even more ambiguous. She's full of shit part of the time and yet she DID make that demon baby thing - there's no denying that was just smokes and mirrors, right? Or was all of that just a glamour too? Did Brienne not see what she saw? Who the hell knows anymore. I just want the Red Witch to BURN like she so casually burns everyone else!  Well, who wouldn't want to bang Gendry? I certainly do, Mel didn't need to use leeches just for that, but I guess Stannis might get jealous otherwise  The king's blood thing fits the Westerosi mentality that nobles and kings are better than the rest because of their ancestors and blood-lines. Is probably BS, but hey, people believe it. And yes, Mel is complicated, she does have actual powers but in her POV she said that real magic is hard and it takes its toll, so she usually fools people to make them believers. Is what she said to Selyse last season, she uses tricks to lead people into the light and once she does they see it was all a lie that led them to the truth. Of course that doesn't change the fact that she is a terrible person who loves to burn people alive and once she "resurrects" Jon she can go die. Would have been better if that happened before she got her hands on Shireen but there's nothing we can do about that now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 12:26:54 GMT
I admit that tweet is a bit polemic.
Nevertheless it is a decision that Stannis will rue to his death, how far or near it might be. I believe Melisandre will realize Jon is AAR and turn his back on him. The sacrifice might have been good for a weather change for two days, but I see Stannis doomed.
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valyrianshadow
Snark 
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 8, 2015 12:28:34 GMT
I just think it's dumb to burn your own heir. Stannis is supposed to be smart. This is the man that held Storms End on nothing for a year. Ramsay sets a fire and he is now ruined? I just don't buy it.
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Post by Admin on Jun 8, 2015 12:32:25 GMT
Except that Gendry's blood had nothing to do with Robb and Joff dying, Mel saw their deaths in her fires, interpreted what she saw correctly for once, and used the leeches to make Stannis believe it was her who caused their deaths. I'm not happy with Shireen's death either, but this the least we can do is use actual arguments to criticize the scene What three dead kings, Balon is doing just fine... |
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Jun 8, 2015 12:38:03 GMT
Except that Gendry's blood had nothing to do with Robb and Joff dying, Mel saw their deaths in her fires, interpreted what she saw correctly for once, and used the leeches to make Stannis believe it was her who caused their deaths. I'm not happy with Shireen's death either, but this the least we can do is use actual arguments to criticize the scene What three dead kings, Balon is doing just fine... When was it confirmed that she saw their deaths in her fires? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 12:38:29 GMT
I doubt they had any leeches in the camp, and Stannis army was about to break. They couldn't march to WF, they couldn't go back to the Wall, and they had no food left so they couldn't wait until the storm passed either. Stannis felt that he had to do something, Mel told him that her god demanded a sacrifice with royal blood, and in the show Stannis does seem to believe in R'hllor. The only ones with royal blood were Shireen and himself.As I said, I'm sad they killed Shireen. Maybe I'm not as upset as I would have been if I hadn't known it was going to happen beforehand, but I don't think it was sudden (they had been setting this up since season 4) and I don't think is so OOC for Stannis. At least they could have shown Mel and Stannis having another heated argument about the things you are saying. Just to show that Stannis is really struggling with this. That would have been better than: Woah, some tents are burning... LET'S BURN MY DAUGHTER. I wish they had made it more plausible throughout the season. It felt like there were at least three scenes missing to explain Stannis going from "you are Shireen of House Baratheon and you are my daughter" to "let's burn her!" I'm not criticising that it happened. I'm criticising HOW it happened. There was a lot of dialogue and a lot of struggling that should have been shown before that. I usually like the show's writing, but this particular storyline was really not well written. I'm sorry. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 8, 2015 12:43:10 GMT
I agree they could have done a better job showing Stannis dilemma, and his scenes with Shireen now do feel like a way to manipulate our emotions and to shock us even more when Stannis decides to burn Shireen. I won't argue that, I just think that is not really OOC for Stannis.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 13:48:42 GMT
D&D said that always when Stannis makes a decision he sticks to it. He decides not to burn Shireen in an earlier episode. Changes his mind after one small raid. Quite weak from Stannis.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 14:42:03 GMT
D&D said that always when Stannis makes a decision he sticks to it. He decides not to burn Shireen in an earlier episode. Changes his mind after one small raid. Quite weak from Stannis. He's sticking to his destiny. Circumstances will always change, but for him his unending desire to fulfill his destiny as Azor Ahai and King of Westeros is what he stands by. So much so that he's allowed worship of R'hllor over the Seven, changed plans of regrouping on KL to go to the wall first, etc. This wasn't character assassination. This was entirely Stannis as he is. A loving father who puts his destiny and his God before his own family -- much like Abraham int he Bible putting God ahead of Isaac when he goes to sacrifice him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 15:31:52 GMT
God, it's like ... do David and Dan even think about the stuff they write sometimes? If they, for whatever reason, wanted to have Stannis sacrifice Shireen, they at least could have provided him with a better motivation to do so. I mean, yeah, sure, no food, bad weather, the situation kinda sucked, but is that reason enough to kill your own child? Couldn't he have tried something else first, like maybe go on a hunt or something? Or blankets? That's just not good writing. The situation kinda sucked? Stannis couldn't move his army through the storm, and enemies were using guerrilla warfare tactics against their supplies. They were in a position to starve and/or freeze to death as the Boltons slowly pick them off. The entire army, and Stan's family would have perished in the snow. |
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sj4iy
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"Et tu, Brute?"
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 8, 2015 20:05:09 GMT
Yet D&D outright spoiled a scene from his books, with the interview. I mean we could imagine Shireen lives there, but not anymore And yet, if they didn't, they would get roasted. And to be honest, I've been predicting her death for years. So even if they hadn't said anything, I still wouldn't imagine that she lives in the books. |
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sj4iy
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"Et tu, Brute?"
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 8, 2015 20:07:05 GMT
Now those are rather pessimistic expectations, eh? They are. But as much as I love GrrM, I blame that pessimism more on him than on my own innate cynicism. Yeah, it's a bit difficult to not be pessimistic when you are talking about a five book series that has taken over 25 years for Martin to write (since he started in '91) and he still has at least two left to write. |
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on Jun 8, 2015 20:12:18 GMT
D&D said that always when Stannis makes a decision he sticks to it. He decides not to burn Shireen in an earlier episode. Changes his mind after one small raid. Quite weak from Stannis. Circumstances were different. If circumstances had not changed, he wouldn't have changed his mind. Suddenly, he was faced with certain defeat and starvation. He figures that he has no choice. There's a different between 'never changing your mind ever' and 'never changing your mind as long as circumstances remain the same'. They were clearly talking about the latter, and not the former. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 20:20:14 GMT
What if GRRM actually just trolled D&D and is laughing his head off atm?  These reactions might convince him to change his plot. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 20:21:41 GMT
What if GRRM actually just trolled D&D and is laughing his head off atm? These reactions might convince him to change his plot. Would be breach of contract. He's entitled to change his mind about things but not to give them false information. He's already said however that he won't change things just because the show covers them first. |
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These reactions might convince him to change his plot.