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Post by mattpeto on Sept 23, 2015 19:12:01 GMT
Yes, because now you are not misusing the word "fanfiction" any longer.  When the creator of a story says that the story is canon, then it's freaking canon. Who else should decide that? Now in this case there are two canons: book!canon and show!canon. Neither one is more real than the other. You may prefer one over the other, that's ok. But both have a right to exist. I just can't agree with that. One was created by Martin, the other was loosely inspired by what he wrote. There is no such thing as two cannons imho unless Westeros is set in parallel universes Well Sati, I guess it is a a parallel universe and GRRM has confirmed that the show has it's own canon. Quote #1:All I really control is what is "book canon" (the novels and the Dunk & Egg stories and the worldbook). It's up to HBO and David & Dan to determine what is "TV canon."
Quote #2: Let me reiterate what I have said before.
How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.
There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.
There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.
Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.
David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.
And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.
And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.
In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.
((I am closing comments on this post. Take your discussions to the other sites I have mentioned. And for those who may be curious as to the road the books are taking, I direct you to the WINDS OF WINTER sample chapters on my website)). |
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Post by Admin on Sept 23, 2015 19:25:36 GMT
I just can't agree with that. One was created by Martin, the other was loosely inspired by what he wrote. There is no such thing as two cannons imho unless Westeros is set in parallel universes Well Sati, I guess it is a a parallel universe and GRRM has confirmed that the show has it's own canon. Quote #1:All I really control is what is "book canon" (the novels and the Dunk & Egg stories and the worldbook). It's up to HBO and David & Dan to determine what is "TV canon."
Quote #2: Let me reiterate what I have said before.
How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.
There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes. HBO is more than forty hours into the impossible and demanding task of adapting my lengthy (extremely) and complex (exceedingly) novels, with their layers of plots and subplots, their twists and contradictions and unreliable narrators, viewpoint shifts and ambiguities, and a cast of characters in the hundreds.
There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.
Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.
David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.
And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.
And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.
In the meantime, we hope that the readers and viewers both enjoy the journey. Or journeys, as the case may be. Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.
((I am closing comments on this post. Take your discussions to the other sites I have mentioned. And for those who may be curious as to the road the books are taking, I direct you to the WINDS OF WINTER sample chapters on my website)).I can write and write and write that imho Martin can have opinions about the issue of "fanfiction" and people can have different opinons yet someone always jumps in with something like this. What you posted just proves he thinks TV show has its story and the books have a different story, but I ain't here to lecture anyone, just offered my opinion. Perhaps instead of quoting him, you should go through those quotes one more time yourself. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 19:36:21 GMT
Thanks for the quotes. Didn't know George considered them two different canons!
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Post by mattpeto on Sept 23, 2015 19:44:07 GMT
"I don't think you quite grasp what 'fan fiction' is or why I object to it. GAME OF THRONES is a licensed adaptation."Source
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Post by Admin on Sept 23, 2015 19:45:19 GMT
"I don't think you quite grasp what 'fan fiction' is or why I object to it. GAME OF THRONES is a licensed adaptation."Source Can you stop with the patronizing posting of these quotes? I'm not changing my opinion on this so what you are doing is simply pointless. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 19:45:32 GMT
"I don't think you quite grasp what 'fan fiction' is or why I object to it. GAME OF THRONES is a licensed adaptation."Source Well Linda doesn't know lol. |
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Post by mattpeto on Sept 23, 2015 19:54:48 GMT
Sati - I do understand your POV.
I wish that certain elements of the show were changed.
I want the missing characters like (LSH, Arianne, Victarion, fAegon, Jon C, Quentyn, Belwas -lol-). I didn't like Sansa's changed arc in Season 5 or Dorne/SS at all, except for the one Bronn scene (you could figure out why). I preferred the FTW motive in the books, as I wanted to see the conflicted Jon/Kit go through the "Let's go Winterfell bitches!" before the stabbing. Brienne killing Stannis was cliche, but if Stannis isn't important moving forward, I'll get over it. I know that his character was assassinated before his death, but that's how Robert and Renley thought of him too. A cold man!
But the show gets it right too. Hardhome and all the WW stuff is 100x better in the show. Is that really a comparison? Brienne didn't do much last season, but her arc in the books were pretty stagnant in AFFC. I thought the Arya/Tywin change was cool. I don't blame D&D for Shireen, that was on GRRM.
It's a different story from the books but it's the show that got me into this universe first. And I think overall it's more fantastic than slop.
And there is another major issue here: GRRM might never release the last two books. This might be the only way we get the ending.
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Post by Basil on Sept 23, 2015 20:06:58 GMT
Sati - I do understand your POV. I wish that certain elements of the show were changed. I want the missing characters like (LSH, Arianne, Victarion, fAegon, Jon C, Quentyn, Belwas -lol-). I didn't like Sansa's changed arc in Season 5 or Dorne/SS at all, except for the one Bronn scene (you could figure out why). I preferred the FTW motive in the books, as I wanted to see the conflicted Jon/Kit go through the "Let's go Winterfell bitches!" before the stabbing. Brienne killing Stannis was cliche, but if Stannis isn't important moving forward, I'll get over it. I know that his character was assassinated before his death, but that's how Robert and Renley thought of him too. A cold man! But the show gets it right too. Hardhome and all the WW stuff is 100x better in the show. Is that really a comparison? Brienne didn't do much last season, but her arc in the books were pretty stagnant in AFFC. I thought the Arya/Tywin change was cool. I don't blame D&D for Shireen, that was on GRRM.It's a different story from the books but it's the show that got me into this universe first. And I think overall it's more fantastic than slop. And there is another major issue here: GRRM might never release the last two books. This might be the only way we get the ending. I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, so I'm just addressing the bolded part. How can you blame GRRM for something that hasn't happened in his books yet? Okay, we can assume that Shireen will burn in the novels as well (based on Benioff's statement) but we have no idea what the circumstances are going to be - just going by the simple fact, that Shireen is still at Castle Black in the books and not with Stannis (who may or may not be dead by the end of ADwD), this means that the circumstances are probably going to be very different. I think most people who had a problem with the burning of Shireen in the show, including myself, don't actually complain about the fact that it happened, but more about how and why it happened. And until George releases the next book (and I believe he will), I think it's unfair to blame him for this, and at the same time to absolve D&D. |
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Post by mattpeto on Sept 23, 2015 20:49:26 GMT
Sati - I do understand your POV. I wish that certain elements of the show were changed. I want the missing characters like (LSH, Arianne, Victarion, fAegon, Jon C, Quentyn, Belwas -lol-). I didn't like Sansa's changed arc in Season 5 or Dorne/SS at all, except for the one Bronn scene (you could figure out why). I preferred the FTW motive in the books, as I wanted to see the conflicted Jon/Kit go through the "Let's go Winterfell bitches!" before the stabbing. Brienne killing Stannis was cliche, but if Stannis isn't important moving forward, I'll get over it. I know that his character was assassinated before his death, but that's how Robert and Renley thought of him too. A cold man! But the show gets it right too. Hardhome and all the WW stuff is 100x better in the show. Is that really a comparison? Brienne didn't do much last season, but her arc in the books were pretty stagnant in AFFC. I thought the Arya/Tywin change was cool. I don't blame D&D for Shireen, that was on GRRM.It's a different story from the books but it's the show that got me into this universe first. And I think overall it's more fantastic than slop. And there is another major issue here: GRRM might never release the last two books. This might be the only way we get the ending. I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, so I'm just addressing the bolded part. How can you blame GRRM for something that hasn't happened in his books yet? Okay, we can assume that Shireen will burn in the novels as well (based on Benioff's statement) but we have no idea what the circumstances are going to be - just going by the simple fact, that Shireen is still at Castle Black in the books and not with Stannis (who may or may not be dead by the end of ADwD), this means that the circumstances are probably going to be very different. I think most people who had a problem with the burning of Shireen in the show, including myself, don't actually complain about the fact that it happened, but more about how and why it happened. And until George releases the next book (and I believe he will), I think it's unfair to blame him for this, and at the same time to absolve D&D. Well I think the root of the issue is people are upset because it assassinated his character. And you're right that the circumstances will be very different. Who knows? I'm probably a minority here, but I consider that there is a possibility that Shireen might not be sacrificed in TWOW and it was a show-only plot. But that doesn't mean it wasn't GRRM idea. All we have is what D&D said, "when George first told us about this" and GRRM didn't deny it. GRRM wrote three episodes so far, and in those episodes alone they were deviations from his books. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 22:57:06 GMT
What is baffling however is why on earth did cogman ever think of her as a friend? Cogman and Elio have exchanged emails before when they had questions about vague information that Elio would know about book-canon and GrrM wouldn't. Elio's also interviewed Cogman a few times and I think even hung out with him back when the show was starting up. Cogman's always known about some of their criticisms because I remember one interview with him that Elio posted on AFOIAF back in the day had Bryan mentioning some of that as an aside, but I don't think he had any idea about how nasty Linda was. Someone must've just alerted him of that now and maybe he assumed that her twitter is both of theirs, since it's called "Linda and Elio" after all (just like his is called "Elio and Linda" because they're just THAT revolting). So either he assumed that Elio was behind her tweets too or that they at least had his tacit approval (which I think they do of course, I think they're shtick is just a good cop-bad cop routine).
And since of course Cogman can easily contact GrrM...let's  that this finally leads to him getting rid of those two molluscs.
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Post by serpounce on Sept 24, 2015 0:17:50 GMT
Quote #1:All I really control is what is "book canon" (the novels and the Dunk & Egg stories and the worldbook). It's up to HBO and David & Dan to determine what is "TV canon."
Quote #2: Let me reiterate what I have said before.
How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story. I've always thought this was a great metaphor for the phenomenon of two canons. Gone with the Wind (GwtW), the movie has been experienced by more people than the book ever did. It's been watched by people all over the world and has more of an audience than the books. For most viewers, they aren't even aware there is a book and if they are, they don't think there are discrepancies like how many children the lead character has. The movie surpassed the book by leaps and bounds. The screenplay was written, approved and the movie produced. There are most definitely two canons for this story and neither is fan fiction. Considering there is a wiki for the show and a wiki for the books, it is definitely different from the fan fiction tales floating around the net. It's being viewed by millions more than the books, just like GwtW. It may surpass the books as well. Time will tell. This didn't happen with LotR because the movie came decades after the books. For GwtW and GoT, there hasn't been decades for people to live with the books. Well, at least not the whole series. (this probably explains Linda and other purists outrage since they have indeed lived with the books alone for over a decade) No adaptation is a complete match of the book and while GoT has definitely taken more detours than many other adaptations, it still does not come any where close to being fan fiction. I think some of the choices D&D have made are questionable but that still doesn't make it fan fiction. Especially when I have no idea how it ends. All the things I'm questioning may happen later.  Who knows. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 2:05:18 GMT
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Sept 24, 2015 5:09:31 GMT
That is some amusing detective work. |
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Post by Admin on Sept 24, 2015 8:51:17 GMT
Quote #1:All I really control is what is "book canon" (the novels and the Dunk & Egg stories and the worldbook). It's up to HBO and David & Dan to determine what is "TV canon."
Quote #2: Let me reiterate what I have said before.
How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story. I've always thought this was a great metaphor for the phenomenon of two canons. Gone with the Wind (GwtW), the movie has been experienced by more people than the book ever did. It's been watched by people all over the world and has more of an audience than the books. For most viewers, they aren't even aware there is a book and if they are, they don't think there are discrepancies like how many children the lead character has. The movie surpassed the book by leaps and bounds. The screenplay was written, approved and the movie produced. There are most definitely two canons for this story and neither is fan fiction. Considering there is a wiki for the show and a wiki for the books, it is definitely different from the fan fiction tales floating around the net. It's being viewed by millions more than the books, just like GwtW. It may surpass the books as well. Time will tell. This didn't happen with LotR because the movie came decades after the books. For GwtW and GoT, there hasn't been decades for people to live with the books. Well, at least not the whole series. (this probably explains Linda and other purists outrage since they have indeed lived with the books alone for over a decade) No adaptation is a complete match of the book and while GoT has definitely taken more detours than many other adaptations, it still does not come any where close to being fan fiction. I think some of the choices D&D have made are questionable but that still doesn't make it fan fiction. Especially when I have no idea how it ends. All the things I'm questioning may happen later. Who knows. I dont consider these books to be some great literature but implying bad pussy will surpass them is a bit much |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 11:32:57 GMT
So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much?  (and yes that is a winky for teasing) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 11:38:47 GMT
So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much? (and yes that is a winky for teasing) Because fat pink mast is so much better than bad pussy. [/sarcasm] |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 11:40:28 GMT
So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much? (and yes that is a winky for teasing) Because fat pink mast is so much better than bad pussy. [/sarcasm] it actually is better because it was sam's personal thoughts and wasn't said out loud. just like bad pussy shouldn't have |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 11:44:23 GMT
Because fat pink mast is so much better than bad pussy. [/sarcasm] it actually is better because it was sam's personal thoughts and wasn't said out loud. just like bad pussy shouldn't have Both were questionable writing choices in works that otherwise have great writing. I just don't get what all the fuss is about. |
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Post by Admin on Sept 24, 2015 12:03:59 GMT
So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much? (and yes that is a winky for teasing) Yes. So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much? (and yes that is a winky for teasing) Because fat pink mast is so much better than bad pussy. [/sarcasm] When its surrounded by dozen of stories better than in the show it is |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 12:13:21 GMT
So, the show has some really well written dialogue, pretty much 95% of the time, but all you're going to keep referring to in comparing the show to books is bad pussy? Exaggerate much? (and yes that is a winky for teasing) Yes. Because fat pink mast is so much better than bad pussy. [/sarcasm] When its surrounded by dozen of stories better than in the show it is I remember being bored a lot during AFFC and ADWD. I was never bored during season 5. But then again I remember you giving good grades to episodes 5x01-5x08. So I'm not sure why you are arguing that the entire show was bad, when you actually only disliked 5x09 and 5x10? Maybe I'm mistaken. |
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When the creator of a story says that the story is canon, then it's freaking canon. Who else should decide that? Now in this case there are two canons: book!canon and show!canon. Neither one is more real than the other. You may prefer one over the other, that's ok. But both have a right to exist. 
that this finally leads to him getting rid of those two molluscs.
Who knows. 
(and yes that is a winky for teasing)