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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 23:51:29 GMT
The heads of the great families are also guilty of crimes against humanity. They're powerful men who thrived off slave labour.
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Post by day dreamer on May 19, 2015 23:54:57 GMT
It's also kind of funny how they nearly kill everyone in Dany's storyline that's still alive in the books. Barristan, Rakharo, Irri, Pyat Pree, Xaro, Mago. Jhiqui is probably the Sons of the Harpy prostitute, but they'll probably kill her too. Or they don't include them at all. #StrongBelwasForever |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 0:07:01 GMT
The heads of the great families are also guilty of crimes against humanity. They're powerful men who thrived off slave labour. As bad as Meereen is, Astapor was worse. Think about how many thousands of babies are killed making the Unsullied. Then you have all the boys who didn't make it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 0:07:54 GMT
It's also kind of funny how they nearly kill everyone in Dany's storyline that's still alive in the books. Barristan, Rakharo, Irri, Pyat Pree, Xaro, Mago. Jhiqui is probably the Sons of the Harpy prostitute, but they'll probably kill her too. Or they don't include them at all. #StrongBelwasForever  |
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 1:50:23 GMT
Seems to me she burned Kraznys pretty good. But not for "crossing her". He was burned for crimes against humanity. This was the leader of the men responsible for the making of the Unsullied (and all that entails). He got what he deserved. Most of Dany's outrage is a reaction to harm being done to others. The Unsullied, the 163 crucified children, the harpist killed by the SotH. MMD was really the only time her vengeance was personal. To me, that makes her actions (even if you disagree with them) much more sympathetic. Parse it however you like. Dany determines when someone deserves punishment and she dishes it out with ruthless aggression in the most painful and humiliating way possible. I see a lot of waving away of these actions and I don't see how what she did to the masters in this scene as any different. They are being punished for helping plot the demise of "good" people like Barristan and UnSullied who were not deserving of being attacked and killed the way they were. She is exacting revenge for these crimes the same way she did against the masters who hung the children or who made the UnSullied. She's been the judge, jury and executioner in all these cases. I'm not sure how it's possible for someone to find a distinction between these kinds of actions other than "that last one didn't happen in the books". |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 2:05:07 GMT
Admiralkyrd has already pointed out why that scene doesn't work where they put it. You don't have the scene of Barristan telling Dany about Aerys, and then 2 weeks later have her feeding random people to her dragons. Unless they're going for a mad queen vibe. If not, it's just sloppy writing, and timing.
At this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 2:10:13 GMT
We will agree to disagree.
I think Dany's story works just fine as long as you don't attach the sacred significance to that Barristan/Dany conversation that some here feel needs to be done. It was a revealing story that added perspective but it didn't fundamentally change Dany. As long as you accept that, then everything else makes sense.
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 2:20:52 GMT
This conversation with Jorah is almost an exact mirror of the one Barristan has with her and we see basically the same result: they appeal to her being merciful instead of vengeful and she changes her mind. But as time passes and other things happen, she reverts to her Targaryen nature. Her advisors constantly tell her that she shouldn't do these things and she tries to heed their advice but in the end, when push comes to shove, she ends up using fire and blood.
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Post by AdmiralKyrd on May 20, 2015 3:13:37 GMT
We will agree to disagree. I think Dany's story works just fine as long as you don't attach the sacred significance to that Barristan/Dany conversation that some here feel needs to be done. It was a revealing story that added perspective but it didn't fundamentally change Dany. As long as you accept that, then everything else makes sense. This is like saying that back during the Pilot, if Ned told Jon his father was Rhaegar Targaryen it would make logical sense for Jon to still desire to travel to King's Landing to squire for Jaime Lannister so that one day he could serve and protect Robert Baratheon as a member of his Kingsguard. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 3:19:42 GMT
We will agree to disagree. I think Dany's story works just fine as long as you don't attach the sacred significance to that Barristan/Dany conversation that some here feel needs to be done. It was a revealing story that added perspective but it didn't fundamentally change Dany. As long as you accept that, then everything else makes sense. This is like saying that back during the Pilot, if Ned told Jon his father was Rhaegar Targaryen it would make logical sense for Jon to still desire to travel to King's Landing to squire for Jaime Lannister so that one day he could serve and protect Robert Baratheon as a member of his Kingsguard. Sure? |
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Post by AdmiralKyrd on May 20, 2015 3:42:46 GMT
This is like saying that back during the Pilot, if Ned told Jon his father was Rhaegar Targaryen it would make logical sense for Jon to still desire to travel to King's Landing to squire for Jaime Lannister so that one day he could serve and protect Robert Baratheon as a member of his Kingsguard. Sure? Yes, because you have: Jon, who is scarred for life because he is a bastard. He doesn't know who is mother is. His step-mother loathes his existence and doesn't want to have him around. It's changed his entire life and he resents being a bastard to the n-th degree. Dany, who is scarred for life because she is an exile. Everything that is bad to her ultimately goes back to her father's madness. The kind brother she never knew had to die because of his actions. She never got to have a childhood because she was constantly on the run from the usurpers blade. Thus, it doesn't make sense for Jon to learn about his parentage and just... not care and want to do the exact opposite, serve the king who rebelled against his father out of blind jealousy because he has an innate desire to be a great hero and overcome his bastardy in any way possible, just as it doesn't make sense for Dany to ignore her father's actions and the consequences because she has an innate desire to burn people. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 4:07:23 GMT
Are we supposed to assume that Dany has no inkling of what the history of her Targaryen legacy is? She acknowledges that madness in her family is a flip of the coin. Also, you know, Viserys. She's well aware of this.
From A Storm of Swords:
Barristan:
"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land. "
It's canon that she knows this is part of her. Barristan telling her about her father being especially crazy isn't some grand revelation, it's just a warning that she should absorb as more of a reminder that she walks a razor thin line always of falling back on this instinct. She has to fight to not let it consume her. That's her character arc.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 4:21:13 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think the Targaryen madness is something that 'consumes' you like a disease or addiction - it's a genetically inherited thing (most likely from inbreeding) so if she doesn't have a penchant for madness by now, she's probably not going to "catch it" somehow, don't you think? Her barbecuing that master and other little tidbits she pulls are just stupid decisions, not madness.
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 4:33:09 GMT
I'm not sure it's a madness per se, that's just an easy shorthand. But she certainly proclaims "fire and blood" enough and goes off the deep end with her vengeance often enough to show that there are some disturbing "tendencies" present. Barristan sees it and so does Jorah and that's why they continually try to caution her against being so narrowminded in her quest to spectacularly and ruthlessly punish so many people she believes "deserve it".
And not for nothing, it's well established that Aerys was a pretty decent ruler for some time before slowly but surely devolving into a paranoid, powermad husk of a man who enjoyed watching people burn. Will that be Dany? Doubtful, but there's something inside of her that gives her the capacity to go that direction if left unchecked, yeah.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 4:39:52 GMT
Some inherited psychological disorders do not onset until later in life, it's true. I'm only going based on what we know as conventional 'madness' not just someone who has a penchant for being cruel or evil. Ramsay was probably born that way, as was Joffrey - but do they all have the same 'madness' as a Targaryen? Hard to say - it's just fictional writing.
But anyways, I think you're being a little too overhanded about Dany. She's making dumb 'newbie' leader mistakes all good rulers go through in the process of figuring out a balance. She has a little bit of impetuousness to her that makes her make some knee-jerk choices but that does not make her "mad" as her relatives? Why are you so vocal about this anyways? Do you really want her to just end up being another crazy Targaryen who fails? That's a pretty boring way to end the entire mess.
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 4:46:20 GMT
I think that her fighting against the tendencies that exist within her bloodline is a major part of her character and something that she has wrestled with and will continue to wrestle with. And she'll probably end up overcoming them in the end so no, I don't think she'll fall. But I don't think people are really paying attention to her story if they deny that this is part of her struggle.
As an audience, we're very much supposed to question whether or not she will end up being the benevolent ruler she would like to be or whether all of these challenges will push her to act more like her ancestors. She's sitting on a pile of nukes and we're supposed to wonder if she'll use them in the end.
If all she's supposed to be is a saviour with no darkness who's destiny is to set the world right, that's kind of a boring arc, isn't it? Probably not something that Martin's interested in either.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 4:54:23 GMT
I agree the taint of her ancestry is part of her struggle to overcome - but that doesn't have to mean literally does it? I guess I never read it as her having some internal struggle with little voices arguing at her to fight against her urges...that's kinda insane itself.  Yes we're supposed to wonder if she's not got a touch of madness, especially during the slaver bay struggle where she starts to lose it. We're left wondering at the end when she flies off on Drogon and has her near-death experiences in the wasteland too I suppose. I honestly always interpreted it as "Daenerys fights against the reputation of her family name to overcome and succeed by her own merits." I always knew she had a big uphill battle ahead of her and she's not even halfway there yet. It *is* what makes her story interesting. No, not a savior story arc at all. Making the mistakes she's making are part of that importance, not madness. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 20, 2015 5:01:27 GMT
"I will take what is mine, with fire and blood!"
-Burns Mirri Maz Duur alive in a pyre
-Deceives Kraznys so Drogon can melt off his face and then orders the UnSullied to slaughter their masters
-Upon taking Meereen, orders that 163 masters be crucified in retaliation for their killing of children
-Whatever the hell she's going to do to the poor unsuspecting crew at Meereen when she arrives with her new khalasar and Drogon in TWoW (cuz I'm sure that will all end really peacefully)
I see a pattern of actions that reflect on her Targaryen heritage, not her fighting against a reputation. But it appears that's just me so we'll have to leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 5:13:44 GMT
"I will take what is mine, with fire and blood!" -Burns Mirri Maz Duur alive in a pyre -Deceives Kraznys so Drogon can melt off his face and then orders the UnSullied to slaughter their masters -Upon taking Meereen, orders that 163 masters be crucified in retaliation for their killing of children -Whatever the hell she's going to do to the poor unsuspecting crew at Meereen when she arrives with her new khalasar and Drogon in TWoW (cuz I'm sure that will all end really peacefully) I see a pattern of actions that reflect on her Targaryen heritage, not her fighting against a reputation. But it appears that's just me so we'll have to leave it at that. Dany does all those things because she believes way too strongly in "eye for an eye" justice. It's one of the annoying things about her! She doesn't do those things because she has a penchant for it or because of Targaryen madness. She thinks she's serving justice to those who wronged her or wronged innocent people ... in every.single.case. Again and again she keeps doing it thinking it's going to work and it never does. Eye for an eye doesn't always work. 1 - MMD burned because she lied about Drogo and killed her unborn child and even admitted it. 2 - Kraznys and slavers killed because of the terrible things they did to create unsullied in the first place. 3 - 163 masters crucified for the 163 slaves crucified. 4 - Executing Mossador in public for enacting vengeance on a prisoner and killing him without her permission. 5 - Burning master for repayment of sons of harpy killing her unsullied and Barristan (show) (not commenting on your last part because that's pure speculation on a book that's not even out) There's actually more from the books but I'm too rusty on ADWD to pull them all up so I mashed together show stuff. Almost fanatically, Dany does this eye for an eye thing. If that's madness then it's just frustratingly mad, in the figurative sense. |
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