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Post by DaveyJoe on May 25, 2019 15:22:00 GMT
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on May 25, 2019 19:22:22 GMT
what makes me sad is that I actually used to really like Bran as a character ... before they turned him into a robot Book Bran is my top 3 with Dany and Cat. The show has now fucked over all three of my faves Book Bran is my fave character, and honestly, probably the most significant character in the entire series. But the showrunners clearly had no interest in the magical side of the narrative (hence why there is no real Euron, Moqorro, Quaithe, true House of the Undying warlocks, Glamoured Mance, Bloodraven, Lady Stoneheart, Ghost of High Heart, explanation of prophecy, you get the point). We should have realised where the show was going when they took out Jojen Reed before they even met the Three Eyed Raven. Jojen was Bran's mentor. He teaches Bran as much as the Raven does, and he guides Bran to him. Bran looks up to Jojen, he respects Jojen, and trusts him. His gradual depression in ADWD, and the (very likely) possibility that he needs to be killed to make Jojen paste so Bran can awaken his true powers as a greenseer is going to be essential in shaping Bran's character as he enters the final stage of this story. If Bran had to accept that this was necessary, it could help to ease us into this uncaring or apathetic seeming Bran the show was trying to portray. Instead, his brain just seems to install a new OS or something.
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Post by Mecha-StannisForever on May 25, 2019 20:23:43 GMT
I think Dany's madness and her dictactorial pursuits were a more pressing issue than her procreating. But i agree there's an undertone of sexism. I can't help but say Dany was kind of right? I mean Sansa was never going to be loyal and the starks just seemed to serve their own purposes selfishly. Naming Bran king is redundant, its tyrion who truly rules. I don't think Dany's intention was to kill everyone in the world. The way her lines were said kind've had traces of regret and remorse but too blinded by rage for Cersei and that is why she burnt kings landing I don't know. I'm conflicted Dany was right. Everyone fucked her over. Sometimes intentionally. I mean, Sansa told Tyrion purely to mess with Dany. I get what the show was trying to go for. Everyone in King's Landing chose to stay there, chose the Lannisters over her. There's even a little part where she goes on about how they refuse to rise up like the slaves in Essos. But the lack of narrative exploration makes it seem rushed. I think they wanted to portray Dany as having the mentality of "rise up and join us, or stand against us." There's no middle ground there. But again, the lack of developing that character makes it seem ridiculously unreasonable. That's this entire season though. Sansa doesn't like Dany for "reasons", she wants the North to be divided from the south despite the fact that some of the people who treated her the worst (namely Ramsay) were Northerners, and those who helped save her (the Knights of the Vale) were southerners. No one helps diffuse this. In many cases they inflame it. I mean, Bran could absolutely ruin Sansa's argument by telling everyone how Daenerys freed slaver's bay and saved the slaves from the Masters and that she isn't evil. That said, I think this isn't vastly different from how things turn out in the books. If anything, I think the whole point of other characters, namely Stannis, is to show how dangerous the idea of destiny and belief in "righteous" claims is. I mean their stories mirror each other pretty heavily, and that's obviously intentional on George's part. We were told for so long not to put faith in prophecy and destiny because it can be misinterpreted, and both these characters are pushed by claims and people telling them they are prophesied saviours, whose destiny it is to save the world. The end result of course is that they aren't that, but their beliefs drive them to commit terrible acts that ultimately lead them down a path to their own downfall. However, much like I don't believe BookStan burns Shireen, BookDany won't burn King's Landing, at least not as blatantly as ShowDany does. The precedent these characters set, and being blind to the reality of their situations is what will fuel these actions in the books. I think her dragons will destroy King's Landing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be her controlling them. It could be Euron, or Moqorro, it could be the Dragon's fire sets off caches of Wildfire that levels the city. Madqueen to me is insulting not just from the idea of sexism, but simply because it's unearned. She tries to do everything right, but everyone tells her to go fuck herself, despite the fact she helped save the world from ice demons. Again, it's probably just the way this last season was put together, but nah, Dany isn't mad. If anything, the idea of Dany finishing her narrative as something of a tyrannical figure makes sense. Her whole story so far has been in presenting her as something different, something better. In the end, she will prove to be much the same as the men who have ruled Westeros. As ruthless as the Tywin's, headstrong as the Robb Stark's, uncompromising as the Stannis', proud as the Balon's... She's not a worse ruler than any of the men, but she's not better. There's a quote from GRRM where he talks about writing female characters as people, not as female characters. She's human, and just as capable of failure as anyone else whose claimed the crown before her. That's the true equality of the series, and the reality that one person can't rule an entire continent alone. Not just crazy lady is crazy because she's a crazy lady.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 25, 2019 20:45:50 GMT
The ultimate irony is that D&D tried to make the audience root against Dany because of her madness or whatever but they botched it so horribly that she was the only one I was rooting for in season 8. I liked show Dany less than books Dany but I did a 180 this season. The writing made me love Dany and I'm not entirely sure it's from the context of the show or a meta feeling where I'm just upset at how badly the writers butchered the character. Reading Emilia's interviews where she opened up about her health scares and how the strength of Daenerys helped give her hope just broke my heart. Emilia must have been devastated to read those scripts.
I felt nothing in the Jon/Dany betrayal scene. Nothing but contempt for the writers. They made me hate the Starks, made me hate Jon, made me hate Tyrion, made me hate Jaime, made me wonder why Varys is so stupid. This season was an absolute failure. I'm surprised I'm the only one who rated episode 6 below a 5.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 25, 2019 20:48:58 GMT
And I agree that this is similar to how things will play out in the books. The biggest changes are that I believe the Long Night will happen after the King's Landing dust-up and I believe Jon will be Azor Ahai, killing Dany will forge Lightbringer.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 25, 2019 22:26:58 GMT
I think Dany's madness and her dictactorial pursuits were a more pressing issue than her procreating. But i agree there's an undertone of sexism. I can't help but say Dany was kind of right? I mean Sansa was never going to be loyal and the starks just seemed to serve their own purposes selfishly. Naming Bran king is redundant, its tyrion who truly rules. I don't think Dany's intention was to kill everyone in the world. The way her lines were said kind've had traces of regret and remorse but too blinded by rage for Cersei and that is why she burnt kings landing I don't know. I'm conflicted I mean Varys literally tried to poison her when all she had done was fallen into extreme grief over Missandei. Who needs enemies like Cersei when your allies are traitors, morons or incompetents
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 25, 2019 22:29:48 GMT
I'm 99% sure they gave Arya the Night King kill because they knew there would be backlash over Khaleesi going crazy. They've enjoyed the adulation from writing an international fan favorite strong female character but decided to go with George's ending without the finesse of good writing. So they destroy years of foreshadowing with Jon because they were afraid of being called sexist.
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Post by Basil on May 26, 2019 7:57:13 GMT
Another great video from this guy. I agree with it pretty much one hundred percent.
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Post by Enid on May 26, 2019 8:08:49 GMT
I'm 99% sure they gave Arya the Night King kill because they knew there would be backlash over Khaleesi going crazy. They've enjoyed the adulation from writing an international fan favorite strong female character but decided to go with George's ending without the finesse of good writing. So they destroy years of foreshadowing with Jon because they were afraid of being called sexist. If that's the reason Arya killed the NK, it blew up in their faces, because a lot of fans felt Jon should have been the one to kill the NK and even more hate what they did to Daenerys. Giving a female character a powerful moment does not mean people won't call sexism when another female characters suffers a sexist endibg
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 26, 2019 11:56:16 GMT
I'm 99% sure they gave Arya the Night King kill because they knew there would be backlash over Khaleesi going crazy. They've enjoyed the adulation from writing an international fan favorite strong female character but decided to go with George's ending without the finesse of good writing. So they destroy years of foreshadowing with Jon because they were afraid of being called sexist. If that's the reason Arya killed the NK, it blew up in their faces, because a lot of fans felt Jon should have been the one to kill the NK and even more hate what they did to Daenerys. Giving a female character a powerful moment does not mean people won't call sexism when another female characters suffers a sexist endibg Agreed but these guys are clearly out of touch.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 26, 2019 23:11:46 GMT
I lived bitch
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Post by Zadeth on May 27, 2019 6:33:01 GMT
I lived bitch Dany kind of forgot she got stabbed in the chest...
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Post by Basil on May 27, 2019 6:49:00 GMT
I think if I ever did a GoT rewatch, I'll probably stop watching after 8x03
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 27, 2019 7:47:45 GMT
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 27, 2019 11:56:35 GMT
Conleth’s reactions are everything. I know thisnshow made all of these actors *consults figures* a shit tonne of money, but instill feel bad for them. They’ve been with these characters even longer than the fans and it must be unpleasant to have their endings handled so poorly
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Post by kingeomer on May 27, 2019 13:52:53 GMT
Book Bran is my top 3 with Dany and Cat. The show has now fucked over all three of my faves Book Bran is my fave character, and honestly, probably the most significant character in the entire series. But the showrunners clearly had no interest in the magical side of the narrative (hence why there is no real Euron, Moqorro, Quaithe, true House of the Undying warlocks, Glamoured Mance, Bloodraven, Lady Stoneheart, Ghost of High Heart, explanation of prophecy, you get the point). We should have realised where the show was going when they took out Jojen Reed before they even met the Three Eyed Raven. Jojen was Bran's mentor. He teaches Bran as much as the Raven does, and he guides Bran to him. Bran looks up to Jojen, he respects Jojen, and trusts him. His gradual depression in ADWD, and the (very likely) possibility that he needs to be killed to make Jojen paste so Bran can awaken his true powers as a greenseer is going to be essential in shaping Bran's character as he enters the final stage of this story. If Bran had to accept that this was necessary, it could help to ease us into this uncaring or apathetic seeming Bran the show was trying to portray. Instead, his brain just seems to install a new OS or something. The show runners had no idea how to handle the magical elements of the show at all. Jojen, as a show character, was totally done dirty. Bran's plot really made no sense at all. He's was basically deus ex Bran (i.e. oh Bran told us this stuff off screen). Allegedly, when HBO was hacked, there was a memo going around stating that the showrunners wanted to kill Bran off in the final season-for shocking death. GRRM absolutely refused to have this happen. The author of this so called memo expressed surprise at GRRM's insistence on not killing Bran. Now if this memo is true---NO ONE STEPPED IN TO SAY YOU NEED TO DEVELOP THIS CHARACTER MORE AS HE IS GOING TO DO BIG THINGS. Bran, in the books, is easily one of my top five favorite characters. Probably the tops since Ned, Robb and Catelyn were killed off. I trust GRRM, if his ending is King Bran, will have it make more sense. For the show it just seemed like D&D pulled it out of their ass. I think Dany's madness and her dictactorial pursuits were a more pressing issue than her procreating. But i agree there's an undertone of sexism. I can't help but say Dany was kind of right? I mean Sansa was never going to be loyal and the starks just seemed to serve their own purposes selfishly. Naming Bran king is redundant, its tyrion who truly rules. I don't think Dany's intention was to kill everyone in the world. The way her lines were said kind've had traces of regret and remorse but too blinded by rage for Cersei and that is why she burnt kings landing I don't know. I'm conflicted Dany was right. Everyone fucked her over. Sometimes intentionally. I mean, Sansa told Tyrion purely to mess with Dany. I get what the show was trying to go for. Everyone in King's Landing chose to stay there, chose the Lannisters over her. There's even a little part where she goes on about how they refuse to rise up like the slaves in Essos. But the lack of narrative exploration makes it seem rushed. I think they wanted to portray Dany as having the mentality of "rise up and join us, or stand against us." There's no middle ground there. But again, the lack of developing that character makes it seem ridiculously unreasonable. That's this entire season though. Sansa doesn't like Dany for "reasons", she wants the North to be divided from the south despite the fact that some of the people who treated her the worst (namely Ramsay) were Northerners, and those who helped save her (the Knights of the Vale) were southerners. No one helps diffuse this. In many cases they inflame it. I mean, Bran could absolutely ruin Sansa's argument by telling everyone how Daenerys freed slaver's bay and saved the slaves from the Masters and that she isn't evil. That said, I think this isn't vastly different from how things turn out in the books. If anything, I think the whole point of other characters, namely Stannis, is to show how dangerous the idea of destiny and belief in "righteous" claims is. I mean their stories mirror each other pretty heavily, and that's obviously intentional on George's part. We were told for so long not to put faith in prophecy and destiny because it can be misinterpreted, and both these characters are pushed by claims and people telling them they are prophesied saviours, whose destiny it is to save the world. The end result of course is that they aren't that, but their beliefs drive them to commit terrible acts that ultimately lead them down a path to their own downfall. However, much like I don't believe BookStan burns Shireen, BookDany won't burn King's Landing, at least not as blatantly as ShowDany does. The precedent these characters set, and being blind to the reality of their situations is what will fuel these actions in the books. I think her dragons will destroy King's Landing, but it doesn't necessarily have to be her controlling them. It could be Euron, or Moqorro, it could be the Dragon's fire sets off caches of Wildfire that levels the city. Madqueen to me is insulting not just from the idea of sexism, but simply because it's unearned. She tries to do everything right, but everyone tells her to go fuck herself, despite the fact she helped save the world from ice demons. Again, it's probably just the way this last season was put together, but nah, Dany isn't mad. If anything, the idea of Dany finishing her narrative as something of a tyrannical figure makes sense. Her whole story so far has been in presenting her as something different, something better. In the end, she will prove to be much the same as the men who have ruled Westeros. As ruthless as the Tywin's, headstrong as the Robb Stark's, uncompromising as the Stannis', proud as the Balon's... She's not a worse ruler than any of the men, but she's not better. There's a quote from GRRM where he talks about writing female characters as people, not as female characters. She's human, and just as capable of failure as anyone else whose claimed the crown before her. That's the true equality of the series, and the reality that one person can't rule an entire continent alone. Not just crazy lady is crazy because she's a crazy lady. YES TO ALL OF THIS. Reading the books, I always thought-much like Jaime earlier in the series- that Dany would die to save Westeros but her motives would be misunderstood. Much like Jaime's killing of Aerys which seemed like a Lannister power play (to Ned) but really was a way for Jaime to save the small folk from being burned alive. It's possible her dragon or dragons do burn down Kings Landing but not in the way the show did it which was to have her emulate her father. It was especially gross to have Jaime say he never cared for the small folk anyway. Uh, why did he kill Aerys then??? The ultimate irony is that D&D tried to make the audience root against Dany because of her madness or whatever but they botched it so horribly that she was the only one I was rooting for in season 8. I liked show Dany less than books Dany but I did a 180 this season. The writing made me love Dany and I'm not entirely sure it's from the context of the show or a meta feeling where I'm just upset at how badly the writers butchered the character. Reading Emilia's interviews where she opened up about her health scares and how the strength of Daenerys helped give her hope just broke my heart. Emilia must have been devastated to read those scripts. I felt nothing in the Jon/Dany betrayal scene. Nothing but contempt for the writers. They made me hate the Starks, made me hate Jon, made me hate Tyrion, made me hate Jaime, made me wonder why Varys is so stupid. This season was an absolute failure. I'm surprised I'm the only one who rated episode 6 below a 5. Emilia had to be heartbroken to read those scripts. I came around to her Dany because she acted her heart out in those scenes and overcame that shitty writing for her character. The people who say the foreshadowing was there when it clearly was not and the show kept framing her a hero. D&D saying that her cold reaction to Viserys' death was the first sign. Excuse me-Viserys abused her and treated her horribly and used her for his own ends. Her lack of reaction to his death was completely understandable. Plus now she is surrounded by Khals who could easily get rid of her (they have no reason to be loyal) and she does what she has to do to stay alive. I rated episode 6 so high for the direction, special effects and acting (Emilia and Peter, mainly). But if we were going on writing alone, I would have rated it under a 5. An under 5 rating is not undeserved for that episode. Conleth’s reactions are everything. I know thisnshow made all of these actors *consults figures* a shit tonne of money, but instill feel bad for them. They’ve been with these characters even longer than the fans and it must be unpleasant to have their endings handled so poorly That's for sure.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 27, 2019 14:20:32 GMT
Ha, seems Charles Dance wasnt such a fan of thr finale either
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 27, 2019 15:50:16 GMT
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Post by Basil on May 28, 2019 13:14:31 GMT
that table read video is actually amazing ... it made me more emotional than the episode itself, especially Kit finding out that Jon kills Daenerys
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Post by kingeomer on May 29, 2019 10:48:34 GMT
Conelth is me watching the finale episode. that table read video is actually amazing ... it made me more emotional than the episode itself, especially Kit finding out that Jon kills Daenerys Poor Kit. He's probably thinking THIS IS WHAT MY CHARACTER GOES OUT ON.
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