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Post by Enid on May 20, 2019 6:47:53 GMT
I'm sorry but I see Sansa as QITN as pure fanservice. If Bran is king, why would the North still want independence? They are being ruled by a Stark anyways.
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Post by Basil on May 20, 2019 6:51:13 GMT
I've been thinking about how the whole "Dany committing genocide" thing could be rewritten to make more sense and to fit the character better. But now I realize, it was never meant to make any sense. It was simply a way to narratively justify Jon killing her and for the audience to be okay with it. And the only way to achieve that, the only way, was to make Dany's crime absolutely one hundred percent unforgivable, the most over-the-top evil thing that anyone has ever done in this entire series.
They needed Jon to kill her, so they turned her into Dragon Hitler in the span of two episodes. And that is the thing I hated the most about this entire season, and which will leave a lasting bitter taste in my mouth, despite the fact that I very much enjoyed the finale.
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Post by Basil on May 20, 2019 6:59:22 GMT
I'm sorry but I see Sansa as QITN as pure fanservice. of course it was, but I honestly don't care at this point
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Post by Zadeth on May 20, 2019 7:34:53 GMT
Reading the leaks for this season, my expectations were very low.
Surprisingly I really liked the episode.
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Post by Zadeth on May 20, 2019 7:52:21 GMT
I think I'm going to give the episode an 8 on first watch. Story elements like Dany going mad for the sake of getting killed really ruined the overall season and show story for me, otherwise I imagine it would have been higher if there was actual set-up and payoff and not lazily rushed storytelling. That being said, there were some things I really enjoyed about this episode (if I ignore the shit writing and set up) Liked:Lannisters - I thought the scene of Tyrion digging through the rubble and finding Cersei and Jaime's corpses was very well acted and shot, it was nice to see that when it boils down to it that despite all the shit they went through they were still family and had some sort of feelings towards each other. Dany I thought there were some beautifully shot scenes involving Dany in this episode. The one where she's at the top of the stairs leading into the Red Keep and Drogon flaps his wings, making Dany look like she had them, was stunning. Further, the scene of her walking throughout the Throne Room whilst the vocal version of the theme song played was beautiful. I am sad she never got to sit on the Throne, but at least she was able to touch it. I do find it ironic that she broke the wheel, but was part of it and only through her death was it broken. Animals - Poor Drogon finding his mum dead. Him nudging her to see if she was still alive was heartbreaking. The scene of him melting the Iron Throne was amazing. I hope he has a happy life where ever he ends up. It was also nice to see Jon finally pet Ghost Small Council - I really enjoyed this scene and seeing a bit of joy at the end of the episode. I guess it's a bit fitting that Bronn gets Highgarden and Lord Paramount of the Reach, considering how the Tyrells got it in the first place; it's not like they deserved it either, but it's not like the people there will accept him. Davos correcting Bronn's grammar was funny, and it was so forced that they said ASOIAF in the show . On the topic of books I thought the scene of Brienne filling in Jaime's pages in the White Book was very nice. Starks - I really enjoyed the ending scene of the Starks saying goodbye to Jon and then going their separate ways. I agree that QITN was pure fan service, but it was a nice scene nonetheless. I am surprised that Yara didn't push for Iron Island independence if the North was going to get it - she was loyal to Dany. I guess she's learnt from Balon's mistakes? General Thoughts:
Dany's Army - lol at the amount of Dothraki and Unsullied she has after the Battle for Winterfell Jon justifying Dany's actions reminded me of the people on Reddit trying to defend the shit writing , "she lost her friends", "you weren't there" etc I had read the leaks for this season and I really thought I was going to hate Bran being King. Whilst I think it was pretty out of the blue, the execution was well done. Realistically, he's the only person there that was semi-neutral and would unite them all, compared to the likes of Sansa would not have been acceptable to the Dany loyalists like Yara. It was nice to see Edmure again. I just finished the episode like 10 minutes ago so I may update this once I rewatch or my thoughts are more clear in my head, it's a bit of a stream of consciousness at the minute
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Post by MarcusAntonius on May 20, 2019 7:52:42 GMT
I've been thinking about how the whole "Dany committing genocide" thing could be rewritten to make more sense and to fit the character better. But now I realize, it was never meant to make any sense. It was simply a way to narratively justify Jon killing her and for the audience to be okay with it. And the only way to achieve that, the only way, was to make Dany's crime absolutely one hundred percent unforgivable, the most over-the-top evil thing that anyone has ever done in this entire series. They needed Jon to kill her, so they turned her into Dragon Hitler in the span of two episodes. And that is the thing I hated the most about this entire season, and which will leave a lasting bitter taste in my mouth, despite the fact that I very much enjoyed the finale. I love how burning KL wasn’t enough. She wants to take over the world next!
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Post by Enid on May 20, 2019 7:53:59 GMT
I think this ending would have been really good if they had dedicated more time to set things up, as it is, they had to retcon Dany's whole arc in Essos to make it look like destroying slavers is somehow bad when it was the own show which always painted Dany's actions as justified and triumphant.
Bronn as Master of Coin is a WTF no matter how you look at it.
I decided that Arya will come back to Westeros in a couple years after traveling and enjoying herself.
And Jon and Tormund are a wonderful couple so OK, let Jon enjoy the Wilding life even though it makes no sense for Sansa and Bran to not call him back home as soon as the Unsullied leave Westeros
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Post by MarcusAntonius on May 20, 2019 7:54:05 GMT
I'm sorry but I see Sansa as QITN as pure fanservice. If Bran is king, why would the North still want independence? They are being ruled by a Stark anyways. Why would the other 6 kingdoms ever bend the knee to a Stark while allowing a different stark to rule the north. Don’t see how nameless dornish prince or yara Greyjoy would ever agree to that
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Post by Enid on May 20, 2019 8:21:53 GMT
I'm sorry but I see Sansa as QITN as pure fanservice. If Bran is king, why would the North still want independence? They are being ruled by a Stark anyways. Why would the other 6 kingdoms ever bend the knee to a Stark while allowing a different stark to rule the north. Don’t see how nameless dornish prince or yara Greyjoy would ever agree to that Yeah, that's the biggest plot hole. I can see Gendry, Edmure and Robin accepting Bran as king because they have ties to the Starks, but the Iron Islands, Dorne and the West? And are we really just going to accept that the Reach is OK with Bronn as Lord of Highgarden? What about the Crownlands? Are they fine with a northern king when a northern army just sacked KL? As I said, the ending was better than I thought, but there are plenty of holes and it really does not hold up to any scrutiny.
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Post by Zadeth on May 20, 2019 9:46:30 GMT
First the Starbucks cup, now a water bottle
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 20, 2019 9:59:08 GMT
Despite being 30-40 minutes through the episode, Dany's death felt rushed, and I feel cheated that we barely get to see her once she goes "mad".
Other than that though I can't say I disliked it. In fact this ending is kinda my ideal outcome. Closest thing to a democracy, people with talents being rewarded (Sam, Davos, Brienne, SER POD), and the endings for the Starks suiting them quite well I think.
It's a shame these last two seasons were shorter, because I think Sansa becoming Queen and Arya leaving Westeros were two things which needed more buildup. Maybe that's mainly because Sansa wasn't in the previous episode so it feels like she's been away a while.
I gave it a 9, in spite of me not liking the first half of the episode, because I really did like this ending.
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Post by Basil on May 20, 2019 10:10:41 GMT
One of the Unsullied who were escorting Tyrion to the Dragonpit had a pretty intense bulge in his pants. I have very conflicting feelings on that.
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 20, 2019 10:47:10 GMT
The two moments in this season that got me the closest to tears: I guess this is what bittersweet feels like...
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Post by Basil on May 20, 2019 10:50:15 GMT
yeah, I'm glad the episode didn't turn out the nihilistic dumpster fire that the leaks honestly made it sound like
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Post by Enid on May 20, 2019 11:47:10 GMT
Also Arya's ending was very, very forced. You can actually see Maisie trying to sell it when she tells her family, but with basically one line of set up two seasons ago the feeling I got is that D&D didn't want to kill Arya but also didn't know how to end her story so they sent her away.
She could have become master at arms of WF or KL, she could have gone with Jon, but the bitter part of the Starks endings is the pack splitting apart, so they could not allow that to happen.
I'm not saying this in anger, is the feeling the goodbye scene gave me.
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Post by Father of Dragons on May 20, 2019 11:48:35 GMT
I'm kinda confused as to what Bran's powers are. I was under the impression that he could only see the past and present, but he could basically access it at any time. But his line "why do you think I came all the way here?" seems to contradict that? The best way I can rationalise that is that he was just making a joke and I'm overthinking it, because otherwise I can't see why he wouldn't intervene if he knew about all the bad stuff that was gonna happen. Also now that the show is done, I just looked at Freefolk for the first time and... oh boy. Meltdown is not a strong enough word
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 20, 2019 11:53:30 GMT
So after all that, Jon showing natural leadership skills, well loved by the people, able to unite enemies, he goes off to live in a castle that would need dozens of servents to maintain.
Bran, who doesn't have an ounce of empathy in his body, Bran, who wasn't upset that his sister was raped, Bran, who has unlimited amounts of knowledge and power, yet did nothing to end the Long Night, will be King?
I understand that Jon's led a selfless life and has earned the right to be selfish, but this is a happy feely moment that falls apart when you think about it and realize how Jon is the King the commoners deserve, and Bran would be a terrible King. As written he's probably the most selfish character alive right now.
In terms of Mad Queen Dany, all they'd have to do is flip the two battles. With an existential threat looming Dany decides to take the City for herself. Rhaegal gets killed in the Battle, she starts burning troops, the civilians see her as a monster and refuse to revolt so she burns Innocents. Jon is forced to kill her with Long Claw in what becomes a Nissa Nissa moment, this forges Lightbringer and Jon has the ability to fight the Night King and end the Long Night.
The fact that Dany helped save humanity and people are still scheming against her just makes me kind of hate all of the characters because the writing just feels so sloppy. This is one of the most unsatisfying conclusions to a great story I can imagine. And the frustrating part is that I think it could have been salvaged with changes that seem almost obvious in hindsight.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 20, 2019 11:59:13 GMT
Why do we need a Night's Watch now? Honestly, I kind of liked Tyrion's explanation. The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men. How about regular society? Let's not forget it was initially a place to send rapists and thieves. As someone born out of wedlock who doesn't know his father, sending bastards to a frozen wasteland doesn't seem very progressive to me.
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Post by Basil on May 20, 2019 12:04:55 GMT
Honestly, I kind of liked Tyrion's explanation. The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men. How about regular society? Let's not forget it was initially a place to send rapists and thieves. As someone born out of wedlock who doesn't know his father, sending bastards to a frozen wasteland doesn't seem very progressive to me. It's not, but nothing about Westeros is. I'm just saying, in the eyes of the people, the Night's Watch has a function ... but it's not to protect the realms of men from a treat that most don't even believe exists. It's basically prison.
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Post by DaveyJoe on May 20, 2019 12:10:24 GMT
How about regular society? Let's not forget it was initially a place to send rapists and thieves. As someone born out of wedlock who doesn't know his father, sending bastards to a frozen wasteland doesn't seem very progressive to me. It's not, but nothing about Westeros is. I'm just saying, in the eyes of the people, the Night's Watch has a function ... but it's not to protect the realms of men from a treat that most don't even believe exists. It's basically prison. My frustration is that every character turned out too boneheaded to learn anything from this story. The North is the only Kingdom that saw the Long Night but they were the only ones sending people to the Night's Watch anyway. Jon of all people could have taken this opportunity to legitimize all bastards in the Kingdom and end the Night's Watch or at least come of up with an altruistic purpose for it. What I got instead was unsatisfying.
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