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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 3:24:39 GMT
After carefully analyzing the idea - your #3 is the only one I could keep as a real concerning plot hole until I listened to some others argue it out and it made sense. Littlefinger is willing to make this gamble with Sansa openly, as is Roose Bolton, because Tywin's dead and the power is shifting in King's Landing. It hasn't happened exactly yet, but we know it's coming ... Cersei is about to go down and all hell breaks loose once the Faith Militant starts their crusade. They may be jumping the gun a bit in the show, but honestly neither Littlefinger or Roose Bolton has much to fear by openly putting forward the Sansa pawn in the game. Yes she's wanted for regicide and yes the crown could try to nullify her marriage claim to Ramsay because of her marriage to Tyrion - those are both reasonable arguments. But I'm betting they're (Roose and Littlefinger) betting that won't happen. It's still a really risky gamble. But more than that it's terrifying to think of Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position. I am truly praying they don't go there. Yes it's a gamble- i get that. LF doesn't gamble with people unless he knows a sure outcome though. Thats his style in the books And they will go there with Sansa. Or else Theon's story is totally destroyed. The faith militant would support Cersei against nullifiying Ramsay and Sansa marriage. Most likely they get married in front of the old gods, the Faith see these as 'false gods'. So we know that LF goes to KL AFTER he has announced the marriage of Sansa and Ramsay Therefore its unlikely she won't have heard about it by the time he gets to KL. book cersei would have LF put to death and he would never return to Sansa. This is unless he makes up a lie to say that this in fact not the real sansa. Although who would seriously trust LF? Olenna must get this information as this is probably what she talks to LF about in a scene they're supposed to have together (unless that is about Loras Cersei is summoning LF to King's Landing (still under the impression that he's in the Vale) because she needs him for something. The Lannisters are desperately low on allies and do not have the ability to have eyes and ears in every corner of Westeros like they have in the past. Nor do they have the force to intimidate other houses in the far corner of the kingdom to do what they want. Something that even the books touch on is the fact that with Varys gone, the Throne loses access to his vast spy network which provided them with most of the info from around Westeros/Essos. Qyburn in the books readily admits that he's not in the same league and doesn't possess the spies that Varys did. They had to do some writing around this but it's completely fine. If you just can't wrap your head around it, cool. But people who solely watch the show will readily accept this reasoning without too much of a fuss. It's only the book readers that are screaming bloody murder because they can't get past that it's a pretty big change. But it does make sense. Ask your Unsullied friends after E4 and see what they say. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 6:44:19 GMT
Yes it's a gamble- i get that. LF doesn't gamble with people unless he knows a sure outcome though. Thats his style in the books And they will go there with Sansa. Or else Theon's story is totally destroyed. The faith militant would support Cersei against nullifiying Ramsay and Sansa marriage. Most likely they get married in front of the old gods, the Faith see these as 'false gods'. So we know that LF goes to KL AFTER he has announced the marriage of Sansa and Ramsay Therefore its unlikely she won't have heard about it by the time he gets to KL. book cersei would have LF put to death and he would never return to Sansa. This is unless he makes up a lie to say that this in fact not the real sansa. Although who would seriously trust LF? Olenna must get this information as this is probably what she talks to LF about in a scene they're supposed to have together (unless that is about Loras Cersei is summoning LF to King's Landing (still under the impression that he's in the Vale) because she needs him for something. The Lannisters are desperately low on allies and do not have the ability to have eyes and ears in every corner of Westeros like they have in the past. Nor do they have the force to intimidate other houses in the far corner of the kingdom to do what they want. Something that even the books touch on is the fact that with Varys gone, the Throne loses access to his vast spy network which provided them with most of the info from around Westeros/Essos. Qyburn in the books readily admits that he's not in the same league and doesn't possess the spies that Varys did. They had to do some writing around this but it's completely fine. If you just can't wrap your head around it, cool. But people who solely watch the show will readily accept this reasoning without too much of a fuss. It's only the book readers that are screaming bloody murder because they can't get past that it's a pretty big change. But it does make sense. Ask your Unsullied friends after E4 and see what they say. Agree with some parts. LF is there to give information, most likely something to do with Olyvar and Loras. Nevertheless, his trip to KL is extremely dangerous. Knowledge spreads fast and I think wedding news spreads faster. The thing with ShowFinger is that he takes lots of risks, BookLF's risks are well thought and he's always at least 1 step ahead of everyone. LF doesn't seem to bring an army with him when she drops off Sansa. Who knows if he brings one when he comes back from King's Landing. The Boltons need reinforcements and I always thought that the Vale army was a part of this deal. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2015 7:12:30 GMT
Also the fact that LF is supposedly having all those spies and knows everything and yet he doesn't know about Ramsay flaying and hunting people with dogs is just - :rofl: |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 7:15:34 GMT
Also the fact that LF is supposedly having all those spies and knows everything and yet he doesn't know about Ramsay flaying and hunting people with dogs is just - :rofl: Now that's a good point! But what about Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage? |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2015 9:29:43 GMT
Also the fact that LF is supposedly having all those spies and knows everything and yet he doesn't know about Ramsay flaying and hunting people with dogs is just - :rofl: Now that's a good point! But what about Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage? They probably think they solved it with LF's remark about Tyrion not consummating the marriage] |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 9:42:07 GMT
Now that's a good point! But what about Tyrion's and Sansa's marriage? They probably think they solved it with LF's remark about Tyrion not consummating the marriage] That's not how it works.. it's still officially a marriage. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2015 9:51:48 GMT
They probably think they solved it with LF's remark about Tyrion not consummating the marriage] That's not how it works.. it's still officially a marriage. I know that but I don't think that LF and the writers do  |
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Post by boojam on Apr 22, 2015 10:28:57 GMT
No Meereen, it would seem so. At least the IMDB does not list any actors from Meereen unless one counts Iain Glen (Jorah Mormont)? Who's not in Meereen right now. The way the show's story narrative is constructed , right now, it would seem that between now till E9 there is going to be some looping on the Harpies until Tyrion can reach Meereen. Which may be E5, E6 or E7, I can't guess what the story in Meereen will be after episode from say E4 to E7 . The invasion of the Slaver Alliance seems cut which seems a real square wave in the story. It would seem Jorah's 'abduction' of Tyrion will maybe this episode which seems early. I figure a whole episode ,probably two ,will be a travelogue for Tyrion and Jorah to Meereen. What happens to Varys story will be interesting, I can't see Conleth Hill vanish for , say E5 to E9, 5 episodes would seem like a lot. Even if IMDB is not all that reliable when they have a truncated cast list it's had to figure who's in what. Since episodes 1-4 have been 'screened' this starts at episode 5 this year. Actually HBO does have a cast list for all episodes but that just seems an 'all cast' place holder. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 11:56:59 GMT
Cersei is summoning LF to King's Landing (still under the impression that he's in the Vale) because she needs him for something. The Lannisters are desperately low on allies and do not have the ability to have eyes and ears in every corner of Westeros like they have in the past. Nor do they have the force to intimidate other houses in the far corner of the kingdom to do what they want. Something that even the books touch on is the fact that with Varys gone, the Throne loses access to his vast spy network which provided them with most of the info from around Westeros/Essos. Qyburn in the books readily admits that he's not in the same league and doesn't possess the spies that Varys did. They had to do some writing around this but it's completely fine. If you just can't wrap your head around it, cool. But people who solely watch the show will readily accept this reasoning without too much of a fuss. It's only the book readers that are screaming bloody murder because they can't get past that it's a pretty big change. But it does make sense. Ask your Unsullied friends after E4 and see what they say. Yes I agree in the show it may be possible that Cersei never find out. But this definitely would not pass in the books. Qyburns reach must not be that great - but its not like LF did a good job of keeping Sansa under wraps. They went to a public inn and Brienne said her name very loudly. also the boltons are using her true name for the wedding to which there will be northern lords invited (well should be) to witness the wedding. Even if the lords don't attend the wedding, all of them would get notice about it. And one of them is bound to reach out to KL. Who's to say the Boltons don't inform Cersei whilst LF is there and then LF is murdered for it? LOL thats what i would do.  What has Roose Bolton got to fear of LF? Absolutely nothing. Agree with some parts. LF is there to give information, most likely something to do with Olyvar and Loras. Nevertheless, his trip to KL is extremely dangerous. Knowledge spreads fast and I think wedding news spreads faster. The thing with ShowFinger is that he takes lots of risks, BookLF's risks are well thought and he's always at least 1 step ahead of everyone. LF doesn't seem to bring an army with him when she drops off Sansa. Who knows if he brings one when he comes back from King's Landing. The Boltons need reinforcements and I always thought that the Vale army was a part of this deal. I agree with this. It's too risky for my liking. i mean i don't care about LF's well-being but i do care about Sansa. and shes going to be Ramsay's new Reek and thats terrifying. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 11:57:18 GMT
That's not how it works.. it's still officially a marriage. I know that but I don't think that LF and the writers do In E3, LF states she's still a virgin so the marriage isn't recognized by law and Roose basically says he doesn't really give a shit anyways because he just needs her for her name, not her virginity. The show makes it pretty clear that the Boltons and LF are not going to recognize the Crown going forward because they feel the Lannisters are in such a weakened position that they can't do anything about it or won't care enough to do anything because they are dealing with their own shit in the capital. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 12:03:35 GMT
LF's plan did not include going to King's Landing. He got summoned there and still has to keep up appearances with Cersei (who thinks he's in the Vale) until Sansa's wedding. I'm sure both he and Roose are aware that once the wedding occurs, word will get out around the kingdom but once we reach that point, they're comfortable being out in the open because they don't think the Crown will be capable of doing anything in reprisal since they're set up so far North.
LF didn't count on having to leave Winterfell but now he'll have to find a way to appease Cersei with whatever her request is and hopefully skip out before word of the wedding gets on the Winterfell internet late in the season.
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2015 12:05:50 GMT
I know that but I don't think that LF and the writers do In E3, LF states she's still a virgin so the marriage isn't recognized by law and Roose basically says he doesn't really give a shit anyways because he just needs her for her name, not her virginity. The show makes it pretty clear that the Boltons and LF are not going to recognize the Crown going forward because they feel the Lannisters are in such a weakened position that they can't do anything about it or won't care enough to do anything because they are dealing with their own shit in the capital. It's the law. They can ignore it all they want, it won't make the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay legitimate MOD: Guys mark your spoilers for ep.3 - 4. This is promo discussion, there is a separate discussion for eps. 1-4 where you can talk about the spoilers.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 12:08:38 GMT
In E3, LF states she's still a virgin so the marriage isn't recognized by law and Roose basically says he doesn't really give a shit anyways because he just needs her for her name, not her virginity. The show makes it pretty clear that the Boltons and LF are not going to recognize the Crown going forward because they feel the Lannisters are in such a weakened position that they can't do anything about it or won't care enough to do anything because they are dealing with their own shit in the capital. It's the law. They can ignore it all they want, it won't make the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay legitimate MOD: Guys mark your spoilers for ep.3 - 4. This is promo discussion, there is a separate discussion for eps. 1-4 where you can talk about the spoilers.
What law are you speaking of? Because I've never heard it mentioned that an unconsummated marriage is a legal one on the show. In fact, LF tells Roose explicitly that it's not legal which seems to me that it's clear enough. Westeros is fictional. If that's what the law is there, then that's what we'll go with as an audience. |
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Post by Admin on Apr 22, 2015 12:17:51 GMT
It's the law. They can ignore it all they want, it won't make the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay legitimate MOD: Guys mark your spoilers for ep.3 - 4. This is promo discussion, there is a separate discussion for eps. 1-4 where you can talk about the spoilers.
What law are you speaking of? Because I've never heard it mentioned that an unconsummated marriage is a legal one on the show. In fact, LF tells Roose explicitly that it's not legal which seems to me that it's clear enough. Westeros is fictional. If that's what the law is there, then that's what we'll go with as an audience. I was not aware LF's word equals legal annulment of the marriage. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 12:22:10 GMT
What law are you speaking of? Because I've never heard it mentioned that an unconsummated marriage is a legal one on the show. In fact, LF tells Roose explicitly that it's not legal which seems to me that it's clear enough. Westeros is fictional. If that's what the law is there, then that's what we'll go with as an audience. I was not aware LF's word equals legal annulment of the marriage. No one has stated any differently so when a character (who would probably understand what the laws are in Westeros) says this is how it works, why would the audience think any differently? Again, what law are you referencing on the show that says the unconsummated marriage was legal? What is LF contradicting exactly? In fact, on the show when Margaery is being betrothed to Joffrey, they explicitly state that she's still good to go because she and Renly never consummated. Granted Renly was dead but clearly, the virgin thing seems to be the most important aspect of the marriage not being binding. The show is not being inconsistent here. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 12:38:22 GMT
It's the law. They can ignore it all they want, it won't make the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay legitimate MOD: Guys mark your spoilers for ep.3 - 4. This is promo discussion, there is a separate discussion for eps. 1-4 where you can talk about the spoilers.
What law are you speaking of? Because I've never heard it mentioned that an unconsummated marriage is a legal one on the show. In fact, LF tells Roose explicitly that it's not legal which seems to me that it's clear enough. Westeros is fictional. If that's what the law is there, then that's what we'll go with as an audience. Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is still legal in the show canon. See: Lysa saying once Tyrion died, she would be free to marry Robyn, even though she knew it wasn't a consummated marriage. Afterall, Margaery was still considered married to Renly and Joffrey, even though neither of those marriages were consummated either. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 12:56:48 GMT
No i'm pretty sure it was stated in the books that if a marriage was not consumated then the marriage could be put aside. the show is correct on this one i think. Its just that Sansa would have to prove this. which involves inspection by the septon
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 12:58:28 GMT
No i'm pretty sure it was stated in the books that if a marriage was not consumated then the marriage could be put aside. the show is correct on this one i think. Its just that Sansa would have to prove this. which involves inspection by the septon "Put aside" means annulled. If the marriage isn't annulled then she can't marry again. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 13:04:41 GMT
I have not seen the leaks, so here might be some mistakes, but why would Cersei hear about Sansa being betrothed to Boltons? Qyburn hasn't as many spies as Varys did. Sure, she'll hear about it after they are married, but how could she know about the marriage before it even happens?
Also, the show has never (expect Lysa thing last year) said that marriage can't be annulled because of inconsummation. This is from the books. Show has never said that it needs to be annulled by High Septon. Except the Lysa thing in 4x05.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 22, 2015 13:17:23 GMT
The Lysa conversation with Sansa talked about her becoming a widow sure but it wasn't directly referencing anything legal, more of a line of convenience to set up the Robin betrothal. And notice that she specifically asks Sansa about whether or not the marriage was consummated. That's an important distinction that keeps getting brought up every time they speak of someone getting out of their marriage on the show. LF suggests that Roose can have Sansa examined for her virginity if he'd like to so clearly there's a process in place. At the end of the day, it doesn't even matter because Roose makes it clear that they don't need the Crown's blessing for this union, it's only important that the people of the North recognize it, which they will because they have already openly rebelled against the Crown. |
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