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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 19:57:43 GMT
Yeah, but it's really stupid, if you really think about it. Out of curiosity, why is it really stupid? I mean, the idea that a 'fake' Arya marries Ramsay and Jon sends Mance Rayder in disguise to save her after he was glamoured to look like Rattleshirt seems pretty 'stupid', imo. I don't see how getting rid of fake Arya and using the real Sansa is stupid- she's the heir with all of the sons 'dead', and it strengthens the Bolton's position immeasurably. It's smart. Well, think about it from all the perspectives. BOLTONS: For them this is quite smart actually. They can cement their claim on Winterfell. But there are risks here, if something goes wrong and she can actually be a problem. The thing with fArya is that they could just reveal that she's a fake. Having a true blood Stark with them can be a blessing, but also a curse. Sansa has not been trained to obey, unlike fArya. LITTLEFINGER: After throwing Robin away, he's going to give his most valuable piece away - Sansa Stark, the key to the North. To whom? The Boltons. Seems like his plan is to send Sansa to destroy them from the inside (and be a Manderly/fArya/Dustin hybrid) and join Stannis. You know, he could just join Stannis and overly complicating things isn't necessary. If his plan is to destroy the Boltons, it's weird that he lets Sansa marry Ramsay. Why it's weird? Sansa's maidenhead is extremely valuable. He's willing to give Sansa's virginity to Ramsay, just so he could destroy them from within. SANSA: Ramsay has a bad reputation. He's 10x worse than Joffrey and a true beast in human form. He's the heir of the family who flays their enemies and betrayed her family. She just accepts the deal when LF says that "avenge them". Go to Stannis and he will give you vengeance. Also the little fact that she's still married and D&D haven't actually done anything to explain this. What about Sansa's character development? She is built to be a player now and she becomes a victim.. again. Having a major character like this marry a monster and get raped is quite an odd decision. Theon will get to save his damsel in distress and eventually they'll meet Stannis. |
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on Apr 21, 2015 20:15:20 GMT
Out of curiosity, why is it really stupid? I mean, the idea that a 'fake' Arya marries Ramsay and Jon sends Mance Rayder in disguise to save her after he was glamoured to look like Rattleshirt seems pretty 'stupid', imo. I don't see how getting rid of fake Arya and using the real Sansa is stupid- she's the heir with all of the sons 'dead', and it strengthens the Bolton's position immeasurably. It's smart. Well, think about it from all the perspectives. BOLTONS: For them this is quite smart actually. They can cement their claim on Winterfell. But there are risks here, if something goes wrong and she can actually be a problem. The thing with fArya is that they could just reveal that she's a fake. Having a true blood Stark with them can be a blessing, but also a curse. Sansa has not been trained to obey, unlike fArya. LITTLEFINGER: After throwing Robin away, he's going to give his most valuable piece away - Sansa Stark, the key to the North. To whom? The Boltons. Seems like his plan is to send Sansa to destroy them from the inside (and be a Manderly/fArya/Dustin hybrid) and join Stannis. You know, he could just join Stannis and overly complicating things isn't necessary. If his plan is to destroy the Boltons, it's weird that he lets Sansa marry Ramsay. Why it's weird? Sansa's maidenhead is extremely valuable. He's willing to give Sansa's virginity to Ramsay, just so he could destroy them from within. SANSA: Ramsay has a bad reputation. He's 10x worse than Joffrey and a true beast in human form. He's the heir of the family who flays their enemies and betrayed her family. She just accepts the deal when LF says that "avenge them". Go to Stannis and he will give you vengeance. Also the little fact that she's still married and D&D haven't actually done anything to explain this. What about Sansa's character development? She is built to be a player now and she becomes a victim.. again. Having a major character like this marry a monster and get raped is quite an odd decision. Theon will get to save his damsel in distress and eventually they'll meet Stannis. You do realize that they explain her marriage situation, right? Because they do. And Littlefinger lays out his plans. He's not going to just 'give' her to Stannis without knowing whether or not he will come out on top. This way, he has the upper hand however it goes- if the Boltons defeat Stannis, he will have Sansa as the wife of Ramsay, and if Stannis wins out, he will have Sansa as the heir to the north. It's win-win for him. What does Sansa get out of this? Well, she gets to be on the inside, using what she's learned to improve her situation. None of this seems 'stupid' to me...it seems like politically adept maneuvering. And Littlefinger hasn't thrown Robert Arryn away by any means...he will be there for LF to manipulate. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 20:29:49 GMT
Well, think about it from all the perspectives. BOLTONS: For them this is quite smart actually. They can cement their claim on Winterfell. But there are risks here, if something goes wrong and she can actually be a problem. The thing with fArya is that they could just reveal that she's a fake. Having a true blood Stark with them can be a blessing, but also a curse. Sansa has not been trained to obey, unlike fArya. LITTLEFINGER: After throwing Robin away, he's going to give his most valuable piece away - Sansa Stark, the key to the North. To whom? The Boltons. Seems like his plan is to send Sansa to destroy them from the inside (and be a Manderly/fArya/Dustin hybrid) and join Stannis. You know, he could just join Stannis and overly complicating things isn't necessary. If his plan is to destroy the Boltons, it's weird that he lets Sansa marry Ramsay. Why it's weird? Sansa's maidenhead is extremely valuable. He's willing to give Sansa's virginity to Ramsay, just so he could destroy them from within. SANSA: Ramsay has a bad reputation. He's 10x worse than Joffrey and a true beast in human form. He's the heir of the family who flays their enemies and betrayed her family. She just accepts the deal when LF says that "avenge them". Go to Stannis and he will give you vengeance. Also the little fact that she's still married and D&D haven't actually done anything to explain this. What about Sansa's character development? She is built to be a player now and she becomes a victim.. again. Having a major character like this marry a monster and get raped is quite an odd decision. Theon will get to save his damsel in distress and eventually they'll meet Stannis. You do realize that they explain her marriage situation, right? Because they do. And Littlefinger lays out his plans. He's not going to just 'give' her to Stannis without knowing whether or not he will come out on top. This way, he has the upper hand however it goes- if the Boltons defeat Stannis, he will have Sansa as the wife of Ramsay, and if Stannis wins out, he will have Sansa as the heir to the north. It's win-win for him. What does Sansa get out of this? Well, she gets to be on the inside, using what she's learned to improve her situation. None of this seems 'stupid' to me...it seems like politically adept maneuvering. And Littlefinger hasn't thrown Robert Arryn away by any means...he will be there for LF to manipulate. I haven't seen the leaked episodes, so I'm just trying to predict. Yes, Littlefinger is in a win win situation, but why didn't he just stay at the Vale and wait for the situation to clear out and then arrive and say "Hey, I have Sansa, wanna be friends?"  Trying to manipulate the Boltons is a suicide mission. Sansa possibly can't think that she's ready to take on such a massive challenge. Robin is out of the hands of LF. BookLF wouldn't give Robin to a man he doesn't trust. Royce could easily just decide that he has Robin, why shouldn't he be the Lord Protector. |
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 21, 2015 20:44:23 GMT
Also, Ramsay's reputation isn't well known in the show. Robb was pretty okay with sending him to retake Winterfell from Reek. LF also tells Ramsay that he knows very little about him, which to me sounds like a Chekhov's gun to putting his plan in jeopardy.
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on Apr 21, 2015 22:27:12 GMT
Yes, Littlefinger is in a win win situation, but why didn't he just stay at the Vale and wait for the situation to clear out and then arrive and say "Hey, I have Sansa, wanna be friends?" Trying to manipulate the Boltons is a suicide mission. Sansa possibly can't think that she's ready to take on such a massive challenge. Robin is out of the hands of LF. BookLF wouldn't give Robin to a man he doesn't trust. Royce could easily just decide that he has Robin, why shouldn't he be the Lord Protector. We'll just agree to disagree, then. I find this turn of events much, MUCH more interesting and smarter all around than the convoluted ridiculousness from the books. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 23:07:38 GMT
You do realize that they explain her marriage situation, right? Because they do. And Littlefinger lays out his plans. He's not going to just 'give' her to Stannis without knowing whether or not he will come out on top. This way, he has the upper hand however it goes- if the Boltons defeat Stannis, he will have Sansa as the wife of Ramsay, and if Stannis wins out, he will have Sansa as the heir to the north. It's win-win for him. What does Sansa get out of this? Well, she gets to be on the inside, using what she's learned to improve her situation. None of this seems 'stupid' to me...it seems like politically adept maneuvering. And Littlefinger hasn't thrown Robert Arryn away by any means...he will be there for LF to manipulate. I'm sorry, but this is still dumb as fuck. If Littlefinger's plan is to ally with whomever wins the Battle of Winterfell (Stannis wins, names Sansa Wardeness of the North, Boltons win, Sansa is married to Roose's heir and can try and "control" him (sidenote: she will not be able to control him)), then why is he sending her to Winterfell before the battle has been fought? Why needlessly put her in a place that could potentially become a battlefield in a few weeks or months down the line? There is nothing to gain from that, just needless risk. He should have just waited things out in the Vale until the battle was over and then allying with whoever was left standing. It's also exceptionally dumb because Sansa is wanted for regicide. She is a fugitive. Openly parading her about and then going back to King's Landing is stupid. She may be in the North, but the Lannisters have friends, allies and spies everywhere, the North included. He has no way of knowing Cersei won't find out he's the one who spirited her away seconds after her son was murdered. And if she finds out, she is not going to be happy. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 21, 2015 23:13:22 GMT
Additionally, the notion that LF has given Robin away is false. He's the Lord Protector of the Vale, that status does not change just because he's not by Robin's side anymore. Robin has no decision-making powers until he comes of age, it's been completely transferred to LF. That's why he can travel around with Vale knights and give orders to everyone in the Vale.
Additionally, he has the trust of the Vale lords like Royce because of Sansa's confession last season and how he was the one who saved and protected her. There is no internal struggle within the Vale, LF solidified his hold on it at the end of last season.
As Lord Protector of the Vale, he is able to commit Vale forces to whatever cause he wants to which is why an alliance with Roose makes sense for the Boltons.
I'm not sure why this concept has been so difficult to grasp for some fans. Lord Protector of the Vale = Top Cheese = Lots of Power for LF to use in order to forge alliances
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 21, 2015 23:27:39 GMT
You do realize that they explain her marriage situation, right? Because they do. And Littlefinger lays out his plans. He's not going to just 'give' her to Stannis without knowing whether or not he will come out on top. This way, he has the upper hand however it goes- if the Boltons defeat Stannis, he will have Sansa as the wife of Ramsay, and if Stannis wins out, he will have Sansa as the heir to the north. It's win-win for him. What does Sansa get out of this? Well, she gets to be on the inside, using what she's learned to improve her situation. None of this seems 'stupid' to me...it seems like politically adept maneuvering. And Littlefinger hasn't thrown Robert Arryn away by any means...he will be there for LF to manipulate. I'm sorry, but this is still dumb as fuck. If Littlefinger's plan is to ally with whomever wins the Battle of Winterfell (Stannis wins, names Sansa Wardeness of the North, Boltons win, Sansa is married to Roose's heir and can try and "control" him (sidenote: she will not be able to control him)), then why is he sending her to Winterfell before the battle has been fought? Why needlessly put her in a place that could potentially become a battlefield in a few weeks or months down the line? There is nothing to gain from that, just needless risk. He should have just waited things out in the Vale until the battle was over and then allying with whoever was left standing. It's also exceptionally dumb because Sansa is wanted for regicide. She is a fugitive. Openly parading her about and then going back to King's Landing is stupid. She may be in the North, but the Lannisters have friends, allies and spies everywhere, the North included. He has no way of knowing Cersei won't find out he's the one who spirited her away seconds after her son was murdered. And if she finds out, she is not going to be happy. I'll take this one. It's made clear as early as E1, that LF is concerned about the Crown finding out about Sansa. He doesn't think he can keep her presence in the Vale a secret any longer so he decides that with the Lannisters weakened after Tywin's death, this is the time to make his move. He feels like Sansa has learned enough to play her part and with Stannis looking to take on Winterfell, he looks at this as the most tumultuous time which is the best time to pounce. The Boltons are at their most vulnerable at this moment which is the perfect time to forge his alliance. The Boltons might not agree to a marriage proposal with Sansa at a later time (knowing how the Lannisters would disapprove). But them being desperate in needing to unite the North, he feels like they would overlook the Lannister disapproval with Stannis set to go after them. And of course, he's got his backup plan in case the Boltons don't hold Winterfell with Sansa already there and installed so that Stannis would have little choice but to support her so that he can truly hold the North. He says it's a gamble but it's also clear that he feels this is the time for him to make his big power move in the North so under that context, it's perfectly logical. I think people are having a problem with this because LF has not yet made his move in the books but it's not like this isn't what he's got in mind there either, he's just doing it more quickly now as the show is compressing things. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 1:26:05 GMT
I'll take this one. It's made clear as early as E1, that LF is concerned about the Crown finding out about Sansa. He doesn't think he can keep her presence in the Vale a secret any longer so he decides that with the Lannisters weakened after Tywin's death, this is the time to make his move. He feels like Sansa has learned enough to play her part and with Stannis looking to take on Winterfell, he looks at this as the most tumultuous time which is the best time to pounce. The Boltons are at their most vulnerable at this moment which is the perfect time to forge his alliance. The Boltons might not agree to a marriage proposal with Sansa at a later time (knowing how the Lannisters would disapprove). But them being desperate in needing to unite the North, he feels like they would overlook the Lannister disapproval with Stannis set to go after them. And of course, he's got his backup plan in case the Boltons don't hold Winterfell with Sansa already there and installed so that Stannis would have little choice but to support her so that he can truly hold the North. He says it's a gamble but it's also clear that he feels this is the time for him to make his big power move in the North so under that context, it's perfectly logical. I think people are having a problem with this because LF has not yet made his move in the books but it's not like this isn't what he's got in mind there either, he's just doing it more quickly now as the show is compressing things. As someone who argued vehemently against the possibility of this storyline merger, I found LF's rationale in ep. 504 surprisingly sound. Both the Boltons and Stannis have a vested interest in keeping Sansa alive, so he isn't really throwing her away. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 1:39:20 GMT
I got into this on the westeros.org forums about Littlefinger looking more stupid for taking Sansa to Winterfell. Overall Littlefinger on the show isn't nearly as clever as he was in the books but then again a lot of the characters are lesser, and that's to be expected. No one can come close to painting them as well as the writer himself.
The problem (or maybe intentional benefit) on the show is that the general population of Westeros does not know of Ramsay's true horrific nature. In the books, it's a well known piece of gossip that the Bolton bastard is a monster. They've never done any exposition about it from anyone else's POV on the show which I thought was shortsighted and missing an opportunity but maybe that was intentional so that Littlefinger's gamble to marry Sansa into house Bolton doesn't look so damn stupid as we think it does.
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 22, 2015 1:40:30 GMT
I'll take this one. It's made clear as early as E1, that LF is concerned about the Crown finding out about Sansa. He doesn't think he can keep her presence in the Vale a secret any longer so he decides that with the Lannisters weakened after Tywin's death, this is the time to make his move. He feels like Sansa has learned enough to play her part and with Stannis looking to take on Winterfell, he looks at this as the most tumultuous time which is the best time to pounce. The Boltons are at their most vulnerable at this moment which is the perfect time to forge his alliance. The Boltons might not agree to a marriage proposal with Sansa at a later time (knowing how the Lannisters would disapprove). But them being desperate in needing to unite the North, he feels like they would overlook the Lannister disapproval with Stannis set to go after them. And of course, he's got his backup plan in case the Boltons don't hold Winterfell with Sansa already there and installed so that Stannis would have little choice but to support her so that he can truly hold the North. He says it's a gamble but it's also clear that he feels this is the time for him to make his big power move in the North so under that context, it's perfectly logical. I think people are having a problem with this because LF has not yet made his move in the books but it's not like this isn't what he's got in mind there either, he's just doing it more quickly now as the show is compressing things. As someone who argued vehemently against the possibility of this storyline merger, I found LF's rationale in ep. 504 surprisingly sound. Both the Boltons and Stannis have a vested interest in keeping Sansa alive, so he isn't really throwing her away. Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure about it, but I'm starting to like the deviation, especially after KT's arguments. It's not a terrible plan for LF, but still very risky. Jokes about mental challenges aside, LF is a huge gambler both in the show and in the books. If you analyze every plan of his in the books, you can see there are so many variables and so many possible faults that could change everything and ruin the whole plan, so he gambled a lot and fortunately for him luck was on his side. |
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Post by boojam on Apr 22, 2015 1:45:13 GMT
Anybody notice there seems to be a female voice speaking to Arya in the E3 promo?
Methinks that is Faye Marsay who plays the Waif.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 1:45:22 GMT
As someone who argued vehemently against the possibility of this storyline merger, I found LF's rationale in ep. 504 surprisingly sound. Both the Boltons and Stannis have a vested interest in keeping Sansa alive, so he isn't really throwing her away. Yeah, I'm still not entirely sure about it, but I'm starting to like the deviation, especially after KT's arguments. It's not a terrible plan for LF, but still very risky. Jokes about mental challenges aside, LF is a huge gambler both in the show and in the books. If you analyze every plan of his in the books, you can see there are so many variables and so many possible faults that could change everything and ruin the whole plan, so he gambled a lot and fortunately for him luck was on his side.Yep. Saying the dagger was Tyrion's for instance in s1/AGOT could have backfired in ten thousand different ways. But somehow it worked. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 2:31:13 GMT
Anybody notice there seems to be a female voice speaking to Arya in the E3 promo? Methinks that is Faye Marsay who plays the Waif. It is. Sansa going to Winterfell as Sansa Stark is so stupid it's unbelievable. If they think this will show Sansa as finally becoming a player then they are wrong. We already know she can show false courtesy- she did this in KL for 3 years. 1. LF doesn't know anything about Ramsay. Why would he propose a marriage with his most valuable piece..Sansa? In the books he knows everything about Harry the Heir. His trade is knowledge, much like Varys he knows the value of information. They are not adapting LF anymore, this is someone else. 2. Sansa is not ready to manipulate the Boltons. The Boltons successfully went behind Robb and Catelyn who didn't know anything until the last moments at the Red Wedding (well Catelyn). LF thinking Sansa would be 'okay' in Winterfell by herself is laughable. 3. Sansa is wanted for Regicide. The Boltons openly marrying Sansa means they are committing treason against the Crown. If Cersei doesn't find out about this then this is absolute bullshit. She would find out, and she doesn't have to send an army. Only an assasin. Also she could get Tommen to de-legitimise Ramsay with a click of her fingers. She could also claim the marriage is not valid as Sansa married Tyrion, destroying her claim to Winterfell. Of course Cersei's word will not matter when Stannis takes over the castle, the problem is how damaged is Sansa going to be by the time that happens? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 2:51:56 GMT
3. Sansa is wanted for Regicide. The Boltons openly marrying Sansa means they are committing treason against the Crown. If Cersei doesn't find out about this then this is absolute bullshit. She would find out, and she doesn't have to send an army. Only an assasin. Also she could get Tommen to de-legitimise Ramsay with a click of her fingers. She could also claim the marriage is not valid as Sansa married Tyrion, destroying her claim to Winterfell. Of course Cersei's word will not matter when Stannis takes over the castle, the problem is how damaged is Sansa going to be by the time that happens? After carefully analyzing the idea - your #3 is the only one I could keep as a real concerning plot hole until I listened to some others argue it out and it made sense. Littlefinger is willing to make this gamble with Sansa openly, as is Roose Bolton, because Tywin's dead and the power is shifting in King's Landing. It hasn't happened exactly yet, but we know it's coming ... Cersei is about to go down and all hell breaks loose once the Faith Militant starts their crusade. They may be jumping the gun a bit in the show, but honestly neither Littlefinger or Roose Bolton has much to fear by openly putting forward the Sansa pawn in the game. Yes she's wanted for regicide and yes the crown could try to nullify her marriage claim to Ramsay because of her marriage to Tyrion - those are both reasonable arguments. But I'm betting they're (Roose and Littlefinger) betting that won't happen. It's still a really risky gamble. But more than that it's terrifying to think of Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position. I am truly praying they don't go there. |
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Post by Nezzer on Apr 22, 2015 2:59:33 GMT
3. Sansa is wanted for Regicide. The Boltons openly marrying Sansa means they are committing treason against the Crown. If Cersei doesn't find out about this then this is absolute bullshit. She would find out, and she doesn't have to send an army. Only an assasin. Also she could get Tommen to de-legitimise Ramsay with a click of her fingers. She could also claim the marriage is not valid as Sansa married Tyrion, destroying her claim to Winterfell. Of course Cersei's word will not matter when Stannis takes over the castle, the problem is how damaged is Sansa going to be by the time that happens? It's still a really risky gamble. But more than that it's terrifying to think of Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position. I am truly praying they don't go there.
And I'm praying they do go there 8D |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 3:07:04 GMT
No Mereen in this one?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 3:09:23 GMT
It's still a really risky gamble. But more than that it's terrifying to think of Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position. I am truly praying they don't go there.
And I'm praying they do go there 8D But then, you're... I mean, I can't. . . It's just so |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 3:11:12 GMT
3. Sansa is wanted for Regicide. The Boltons openly marrying Sansa means they are committing treason against the Crown. If Cersei doesn't find out about this then this is absolute bullshit. She would find out, and she doesn't have to send an army. Only an assasin. Also she could get Tommen to de-legitimise Ramsay with a click of her fingers. She could also claim the marriage is not valid as Sansa married Tyrion, destroying her claim to Winterfell. Of course Cersei's word will not matter when Stannis takes over the castle, the problem is how damaged is Sansa going to be by the time that happens? After carefully analyzing the idea - your #3 is the only one I could keep as a real concerning plot hole until I listened to some others argue it out and it made sense. Littlefinger is willing to make this gamble with Sansa openly, as is Roose Bolton, because Tywin's dead and the power is shifting in King's Landing. It hasn't happened exactly yet, but we know it's coming ... Cersei is about to go down and all hell breaks loose once the Faith Militant starts their crusade. They may be jumping the gun a bit in the show, but honestly neither Littlefinger or Roose Bolton has much to fear by openly putting forward the Sansa pawn in the game. Yes she's wanted for regicide and yes the crown could try to nullify her marriage claim to Ramsay because of her marriage to Tyrion - those are both reasonable arguments. But I'm betting they're (Roose and Littlefinger) betting that won't happen. It's still a really risky gamble. But more than that it's terrifying to think of Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position. I am truly praying they don't go there. Yes it's a gamble- i get that. LF doesn't gamble with people unless he knows a sure outcome though. Thats his style in the books And they will go there with Sansa. Or else Theon's story is totally destroyed. The faith militant would support Cersei against nullifiying Ramsay and Sansa marriage. Most likely they get married in front of the old gods, the Faith see these as 'false gods'. So we know that LF goes to KL AFTER he has announced the marriage of Sansa and Ramsay Therefore its unlikely she won't have heard about it by the time he gets to KL. book cersei would have LF put to death and he would never return to Sansa. This is unless he makes up a lie to say that this in fact not the real sansa. Although who would seriously trust LF? Olenna must get this information as this is probably what she talks to LF about in a scene they're supposed to have together (unless that is about Loras |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 3:16:44 GMT
No. its heavily KL, Arya and North/Wall focused |
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