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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Apr 23, 2017 0:05:27 GMT
Which episode? I was tearing up from episode 9-13... Tony never made much sense imo. As for the idea of blaming people for her death, I think it's more a case of accountability and making people reconsider their behaviour to others. I know I brought up An Inspector Calls before, but that's pretty much the culmination of the play - what have these characters learned having been told the consequences of their actions? are things going to change after what they have learned? (It's a really great play, and the BBC did a fantastic screen adaptation fairly recently that anyone interested should watch). 13 Reasons Why...I think it also aims for this kind of message, but is a bit muddled and lacking in the execution. There is a moment in episode 11 (sort of. Really it runs brought much of the show) that really bugs me for its melodrama People, in particular Tony, telling Clay he is responsible for Hannah's death. That's...not true. Yes he could have opened up to her more and been a closer friend, but: a) that's not who he is. And b) that doesn't mean he is responsible for her dying. This kind of irritated me so much, because I've been in the position of being the friend someone reaches out to. And sometimes no matter how much you try you just can't give the help they need. I think the best summation comes in episode 13 When Clay speaks to the counsellor who tells him that it may have been beyond any of them to save Hannah Baker. Which is sadly true. The "13 Reasons" led Hannah to the desperate position, but she decided enough was enough. So I don't think the show was trying to be too much the blame game (except maybe Bryce because seriously fuck you Bryce). But the execution was a bit lacking . One of the messages in the show it does handle well, imo (spoilers for all episodes) was the exploration of rape culture. From the first episode where Hannah is "branded" as easy and a slut because of the proliferation of the photos of her, to the behaviour of various characters towards her because of that - Jessica believing Alex's list; Alex putting her on the list; Bryce groping her in the shop; Marcus trying to force her in the diner on Valentines; and her eventual rape by Bryce. Then of course there is Jessica, raped by Bryce, and the incident glossed over by her boyfriend because of this bro-code between them. And Courtney at the end, persisting in denying Bryce's guilt. The "golden boy" status of many of the characters which seemingly renders them immune, The show is really good at sprinkling this throughout, and one character, I think perhaps Jessica (or maybe someone else), breaks at the end and says it's always like that for girls at the school. Final point, regarding Cheri's tape Jeff  |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Apr 23, 2017 0:26:51 GMT
I haven't watched 13 Reasons but it's catching a lot of flack on social media for being dangerous. People are saying it glorifies suicide and has a lot of triggers for people that suffer from depression.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Apr 23, 2017 1:00:34 GMT
I don't agree that it glorifies suicide. It's pretty explicit about how horrible it is, the desperation of the main character before she made that choice, and it certainly doesn't shy away from the idea that suicide is ugly and painful. I appreciate some people might be triggered, but different people are triggered by different things and i don't think there is anything they ought not to have shown. Speaking as someone who does suffer from depression, and relates to a lot of the things depicted in the series, I thought it was actually pretty good. It made me uncomfortable, as something like that should. I shouldn't be able to kick back and watch someone's descent to suicide and feel nothing while watching it. the show isn't perfect, and some areas could use improvement in how they are executed. But for the most part I think it was pretty respectful of the subject matter.
Actually, the show even has what you'd call trigger warnings on the episodes that are especially likely to trigger someone.
One criticism that really bothered me that was that it's a bad depiction of depression because Hannah isn't laying in bed unable to leave the house and noth showering etc. Etc. And yes, severe depression can look like that. But it can also look fairly normal on the surface. People are good at hiding things. You never know what's going on beneath the surface, with someone, and that's why removing the stigma associated with mental health is so important, because if people bottle things up it can be impossible to know the truth. Again, speaking from my own experiences, I went through 3 years of gradually declining physical and mental health and not one person stepped in and said "You okay?" because I was actively trying to put on a brace face. So I get annoyed when people criticise the show as though you aren't depressed unless you can't get yourself out of bed at all and so on.
(Just a few thoughts I've had when I run across the criticisms on social media, I realise Davey wasn't saying that himself)
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Post by kingeomer on Apr 23, 2017 13:56:21 GMT
I haven't watched 13 Reasons but it's catching a lot of flack on social media for being dangerous. People are saying it glorifies suicide and has a lot of triggers for people that suffer from depression. I have not watched the show (as detailed in an earlier post) but I've seen this criticism around. If anything, I think it is a show and a book that parents should read and watch with their teens and honestly talk about it. The sad truth is, in our life, chances are we are going to know someone who is going to commit suicide, even if we are ourselves are not and will not ever do so. I don't agree that it glorifies suicide. It's pretty explicit about how horrible it is, the desperation of the main character before she made that choice, and it certainly doesn't shy away from the idea that suicide is ugly and painful. I appreciate some people might be triggered, but different people are triggered by different things and i don't think there is anything they ought not to have shown. Speaking as someone who does suffer from depression, and relates to a lot of the things depicted in the series, I thought it was actually pretty good. It made me uncomfortable, as something like that should. I shouldn't be able to kick back and watch someone's descent to suicide and feel nothing while watching it. the show isn't perfect, and some areas could use improvement in how they are executed. But for the most part I think it was pretty respectful of the subject matter. Actually, the show even has what you'd call trigger warnings on the episodes that are especially likely to trigger someone. One criticism that really bothered me that was that it's a bad depiction of depression because Hannah isn't laying in bed unable to leave the house and noth showering etc. Etc. And yes, severe depression can look like that. But it can also look fairly normal on the surface. People are good at hiding things. You never know what's going on beneath the surface, with someone, and that's why removing the stigma associated with mental health is so important, because if people bottle things up it can be impossible to know the truth. Again, speaking from my own experiences, I went through 3 years of gradually declining physical and mental health and not one person stepped in and said "You okay?" because I was actively trying to put on a brace face. So I get annoyed when people criticise the show as though you aren't depressed unless you can't get yourself out of bed at all and so on. (Just a few thoughts I've had when I run across the criticisms on social media, I realise Davey wasn't saying that himself) I 100% agree with you that severe depression can look very different in different people. Not everyone is unable to get out of bed and teens, especially, are very good at masking how they really feel. I read the Columbine book by Dave Cullen (I wish I hadn't, it was disturbing and I am not emotionally ready, even 18 years later) but one of the things that struck me is that one of the kids was clearly ---in retrospect----severely depressed...he lost a significant amount of weight, grades were dropping, etc...but he was still going out with friends, pretending everything was basically fine...no one would have picked up on it straight away. This is a heavy subject, I don't mean to change it so abruptly. but did anyone catch The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks on HBO? I am going to try to catch it on demand tonight. |
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Post by Basil on Apr 23, 2017 16:52:15 GMT
I finished 13 Reasons Why. I liked it, it's a good show, and it did make me cry at the end ... but I have some major issues with it.
I need some time to calm down and sort out my thoughts, but yeah, I'm very, very conflicted. I don't think it's "dangerous", but I understand why some people criticize it for sending harmful messages to young people ... and I can't say that I completely disagree with that.
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Post by Basil on Apr 23, 2017 21:13:40 GMT
Okay, here it goes.
First of all, suicide, bullying and depression are very difficult topics to talk about, so if I said something that offends anyone, I apologize. I don't claim that my opinion on this show is correct, I'm just trying to write down how it made me feel and what I got from it. And the message I got from it was questionable, to say the least.
I do believe that to a certain extent, this show romanticizes suicide, this I think cannot be denied. I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'dangerous', but I don't think it's completely harmless either. The messages it sends to young people are contraproductive, I feel like.
In a weird way, the show portrayed suicide almost as a noble thing, in that by killing herself, Hannah taught everyone who mistreated her in life a valuable lesson. Suicide is not revenge. I think this show sets a horrendous example of someone taking their own life to inflict damage on the living. And maybe that is not the message the show was trying to convey. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not, but it is what a lot of people, especially young people, will get from it. Therefore, no, I don't think it's completely harmless. I think it could be potentially damaging.
The show never really questions the distribution of guilt. The "bullies" question it, but the show portrays them as wrong. Hannah is dead. You killed her, we all killed her. The show glorifies this, she killed herself because of us. She was not responsible for her own actions, we are. What is the message here, that if a person in your life commits suicide, it would be partially your fault if at any point in their life you were mean to them? I understand that Hannah was trying to tell her story, to explain what led her to that point. But she was also assigning blame, the tapes were there to put an immense amount of guilt on a bunch of young people, a guilt they will carry with them forever, something that arguably no one of them deserves, except Bryce. Something that might drive a fragile person into suicide, which, ultimately, it did with Alex.
Hannah knew exactly the source of all her problems. She knew that no one truly hated her, and that no one was targeting her with the sole purpose to ruin her life, that a lot of the shitty things that happened to her was just people being people and making mistakes. She was self-aware enough to record her entire story. I would think that alone would have some therapeutic effect on her and help her deal with things, especially considering how great, loving and supportive her parents were. But it didn't, at all. Which makes her suicide appear as a deliberate way to exact revenge on the poeple who wronged her. Again, I'm sure this is not what the writers intended, but it is how some people might interpret it.
As a show, it was great. It had some amazing acting and writing, an engaging storyline and interesting characters. It made me fall in love with Hannah and Clay, it made me laugh and it broke my heart. But it's not without it's issues and I think that in a lot of ways, it backfired and conveyed some contraproductive messages in regard to all the difficult topics it touched upon.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Apr 24, 2017 0:07:33 GMT
Okay, here it goes. First of all, suicide, bullying and depression are very difficult topics to talk about, so if I said something that offends anyone, I apologize. I don't claim that my opinion on this show is correct, I'm just trying to write down how it made me feel and what I got from it. And the message I got from it was questionable, to say the least. I do believe that to a certain extent, this show romanticizes suicide, this I think cannot be denied. I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'dangerous', but I don't think it's completely harmless either. The messages it sends to young people are contraproductive, I feel like. In a weird way, the show portrayed suicide almost as a noble thing, in that by killing herself, Hannah taught everyone who mistreated her in life a valuable lesson. Suicide is not revenge. I think this show sets a horrendous example of someone taking their own life to inflict damage on the living. And maybe that is not the message the show was trying to convey. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not, but it is what a lot of people, especially young people, will get from it. Therefore, no, I don't think it's completely harmless. I think it could be potentially damaging. The show never really questions the distribution of guilt. The "bullies" question it, but the show portrays them as wrong. Hannah is dead. You killed her, we all killed her. The show glorifies this, she killed herself because of us. She was not responsible for her own actions, we are. What is the message here, that if a person in your life commits suicide, it would be partially your fault if at any point in their life you were mean to them? I understand that Hannah was trying to tell her story, to explain what led her to that point. But she was also assigning blame, the tapes were there to put an immense amount of guilt on a bunch of young people, a guilt they will carry with them forever, something that arguably no one of them deserves, except Bryce. Something that might drive a fragile person into suicide, which, ultimately, it did with Alex. Hannah knew exactly the source of all her problems. She knew that no one truly hated her, and that no one was targeting her with the sole purpose to ruin her life, that a lot of the shitty things that happened to her was just people being people and making mistakes. She was self-aware enough to record her entire story. I would think that alone would have some therapeutic effect on her and help her deal with things, especially considering how great, loving and supportive her parents were. But it didn't, at all. Which makes her suicide appear as a deliberate way to exact revenge on the poeple who wronged her. Again, I'm sure this is not what the writers intended, but it is how some people might interpret it. As a show, it was great. It had some amazing acting and writing, an engaging storyline and interesting characters. It made me fall in love with Hannah and Clay, it made me laugh and it broke my heart. But it's not without it's issues and I think that in a lot of ways, it backfired and conveyed some contraproductive messages in regard to all the difficult topics it touched upon. Just to preface, I'm not offended by what you wrote and I appreciate your thoughts on the show. I don't want to go too much into it, because like you say they are very sensitive topics, and for me particularly some are very uncomfortable. I don't entirely disagree with you either btw. I know I've been defending the show a lot here but I recognise some of the problems with it. A lot of that is, imo, due to execution. I think they wanted to portray a certain message, but ended up failing at times. I think what kingeomer said was pretty good though - it's a show that would be good for young people to watch with their parents to open a dialogue, to discuss these difficult issues. I think the certification (here in the U.K. it's 18) is quite important to keep in mind when discussing it, as well as the "trigger warnings." The creators were obviously aware of the difficult subject matter and didn't intend it for a target audience who are especially impressionable or maybe unable to properly process these difficult issues. I can certainly see your point of view regarding the revenge aspect. I didn't view it that way myself, but I understand how others might see it that way (again, the execution of the idea was not always well done). I'm kind of back and forth on the repercussions for the people she sends the tapes to. I sometimes feel like the show was try to show that the tapes were harmful in that respect. But then other times I did get the sense they were portraying hannah as a kind of avenging angel. So I think the message was muddled, and I appreciate how that could send a harmful message to viewers. I don't think the fact that she was aware of the source of her problems necessarily has to be therapeutic. Mental health problems are often characterised by irrationality. Part of the treatment is learning to recognise where you are being irrational in your way of thinking, but you also need the tools to properly challenge those thoughts. And I think Hannah reaching out for help several times and being rebuffed plays into her eventual fate and feeds her irrational thinking. It can be difficult to reach for help at the best of times, and when you do try and then have someone ignore that plea or not really offer the help you need...it's hard. But yeah, as you say, very difficult subject matter and I appreciate your thoughts on it. I'm glad we both agree that as a show at least it was great. I hope the actress who played Hannah and actor who played Clay go on to do more, they were both very good. One question for you though, what were your thoughts on the graphic scenes? Did you think they were appropriate? For me, I thought the decision to be very explicit was the right one in this situation, because it properly depicts the severity of the issues it's portraying. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 24, 2017 3:21:04 GMT
day dreamer pls watch feud it ended and i am a ball of emotion
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 24, 2017 4:55:56 GMT
day dreamer pls watch feud it ended and i am a ball of emotion OMG that episode hit me in the feels over and over again. It was devastating. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 24, 2017 5:01:56 GMT
day dreamer pls watch feud it ended and i am a ball of emotion OMG that episode hit me in the feels over and over again. It was devastating. what were your thoughts on the party hallucination? I thought it would be cheesy but I was genuinely shook by the end. |
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Post by Singer of Death on Apr 24, 2017 5:10:58 GMT
Okay, here it goes. First of all, suicide, bullying and depression are very difficult topics to talk about, so if I said something that offends anyone, I apologize. I don't claim that my opinion on this show is correct, I'm just trying to write down how it made me feel and what I got from it. And the message I got from it was questionable, to say the least. I do believe that to a certain extent, this show romanticizes suicide, this I think cannot be denied. I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'dangerous', but I don't think it's completely harmless either. The messages it sends to young people are contraproductive, I feel like. In a weird way, the show portrayed suicide almost as a noble thing, in that by killing herself, Hannah taught everyone who mistreated her in life a valuable lesson. Suicide is not revenge. I think this show sets a horrendous example of someone taking their own life to inflict damage on the living. And maybe that is not the message the show was trying to convey. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not, but it is what a lot of people, especially young people, will get from it. Therefore, no, I don't think it's completely harmless. I think it could be potentially damaging. The show never really questions the distribution of guilt. The "bullies" question it, but the show portrays them as wrong. Hannah is dead. You killed her, we all killed her. The show glorifies this, she killed herself because of us. She was not responsible for her own actions, we are. What is the message here, that if a person in your life commits suicide, it would be partially your fault if at any point in their life you were mean to them? I understand that Hannah was trying to tell her story, to explain what led her to that point. But she was also assigning blame, the tapes were there to put an immense amount of guilt on a bunch of young people, a guilt they will carry with them forever, something that arguably no one of them deserves, except Bryce. Something that might drive a fragile person into suicide, which, ultimately, it did with Alex. Hannah knew exactly the source of all her problems. She knew that no one truly hated her, and that no one was targeting her with the sole purpose to ruin her life, that a lot of the shitty things that happened to her was just people being people and making mistakes. She was self-aware enough to record her entire story. I would think that alone would have some therapeutic effect on her and help her deal with things, especially considering how great, loving and supportive her parents were. But it didn't, at all. Which makes her suicide appear as a deliberate way to exact revenge on the poeple who wronged her. Again, I'm sure this is not what the writers intended, but it is how some people might interpret it. As a show, it was great. It had some amazing acting and writing, an engaging storyline and interesting characters. It made me fall in love with Hannah and Clay, it made me laugh and it broke my heart. But it's not without it's issues and I think that in a lot of ways, it backfired and conveyed some contraproductive messages in regard to all the difficult topics it touched upon. It's one the things i absolutely love the show. The show portrayed the most of the characters as flaw beings, not monsters (although Bryce and arguably Cortney counts). This includes Hannah who is also flaw and she made mistakes and the show did not shy away that she can be sometimes judgmental and an unreliable narrator. But you cannot hate her for it given with all the craps she went through. I read a lot of people that they hate the show cuz they portray Hannah to be wrong in some situations (especially where she reinforce the idea that mentally ill victims don't want help and all). But i think they are trying to show the sides of the victim in a realistic circumstances. From my experiences, victims were more complicated than your simple 'damsel in distress'. They suffer depression and other mental illnesses that can affect their mind psychologically, so you don't really see what's in their mind. Similarly, Hannah blames all the people for her death that contribute to her snowball effect, but again, she cannot see from the others' perspective when they interact with her. It's one the changes i like that the show did compare to the book. The book tries hard to make us feel sympathy for Hannah, but let's say it didn't work for half the fans who read the book. While the show admit that Hannah can be wrong, but she had good damn reasons to accuse the people who were on her tape list. As for the romanticization of Hannah's suicide, i don't really see that. I'm guessing they say that cuz it was shown with no music and all, but it absolutely doesn't look romanticize imo. We were clearly shown Hannah slitting her wrist and the pain she had to go through. Maybe she didn't cry out too much, but at this point, she doesn't care anymore. The pain of killing herself is nothing compare to all the suffering she went through from her acquaintances and peers. |
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Post by Basil on Apr 24, 2017 7:03:45 GMT
One question for you though, what were your thoughts on the graphic scenes? Did you think they were appropriate? For me, I thought the decision to be very explicit was the right one in this situation, because it properly depicts the severity of the issues it's portraying. I agree, I think it was the right decision to be graphic, it would have lessen the impact of the story if they had played it down or hadn't shown any of it. Just to clarify: I do think the show romanticized suicide to an extent, as a concept, an idea, but not the act itself. The graphic depiction of Hannah slitting her wrists was ... difficult to watch, to say the least. I actually looked away because I was afraid I was going to pass out. But it's good that they showed it, that they showed the pain and the blood and especially the reaction of her parents. That entire scene was absolutely harrowing. |
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Post by kingeomer on Apr 24, 2017 12:11:25 GMT
day dreamer pls watch feud it ended and i am a ball of emotion I'm watching it tonight. |
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Post by day dreamer on Apr 24, 2017 21:35:20 GMT
OMG that episode hit me in the feels over and over again. It was devastating. what were your thoughts on the party hallucination? I thought it would be cheesy but I was genuinely shook by the end. I loved it. That could've failed on multiple levels but it worked. It was even heaviet following that scene where Bette calls Joan and doesn't say anything to her. My biggest gripe about the show was the faux-documentary angle. I felt it was unnecessary, but that dream sequence made Mamacita talking about it work. That was the only time. It makes me want to cry thinking about it again. |
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 24, 2017 21:38:17 GMT
what were your thoughts on the party hallucination? I thought it would be cheesy but I was genuinely shook by the end. I loved it. That could've failed on multiple levels but it worked. It was even heaviet following that scene where Bette calls Joan and doesn't say anything to her. My biggest gripe about the show was the faux-documentary angle. I felt it was unnecessary, but that dream sequence made Mamacita talking about it work. That was the only time. It makes me want to cry thinking about it again. yeah i think it could've gone very wrong but they pulled it off brilliantly and yes i didn't really see the point in the documentary thing. I guess they were all filming their parts at the Oscars after Joan died? Also Kathy Bates's character could have been completely written out and it would have made no difference. i was so into the episode, afterwords i was like stalking ur livetweeting (as im sure you noticed lol) it's gonna be hard to top this with charles and diana |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Apr 24, 2017 22:50:08 GMT
I'm so annoyed that we didn't get Feud in the U.K. I've seen nothing to indicate that we will get it anytime soon either. Same with Fargo season 3. *sigh*
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Post by TheMadQueen on Apr 25, 2017 0:46:30 GMT
I'm so annoyed that we didn't get Feud in the U.K. I've seen nothing to indicate that we will get it anytime soon either. Same with Fargo season 3. *sigh* Murphy's stuff always ends up on Netflix. It's soooooo good you'll be shook and crine. |
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Post by DaveyJoe on Apr 25, 2017 1:18:01 GMT
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Post by kingeomer on Apr 25, 2017 12:28:27 GMT
I loved it. That could've failed on multiple levels but it worked. It was even heaviet following that scene where Bette calls Joan and doesn't say anything to her. My biggest gripe about the show was the faux-documentary angle. I felt it was unnecessary, but that dream sequence made Mamacita talking about it work. That was the only time. It makes me want to cry thinking about it again. yeah i think it could've gone very wrong but they pulled it off brilliantly and yes i didn't really see the point in the documentary thing. I guess they were all filming their parts at the Oscars after Joan died? Also Kathy Bates's character could have been completely written out and it would have made no difference. i was so into the episode, afterwords i was like stalking ur livetweeting (as im sure you noticed lol) it's gonna be hard to top this with charles and diana I believe they did film it after Joan died. It was the Oscars 1977/1978 right? I think she died in 1977. My TV wouldn't let me watch it on demand last night so I will watch it tonight because I set it up to tape a repeat of the finale. |
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Post by Basil on Apr 25, 2017 12:53:48 GMT
jesus |
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