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Post by Enid on May 16, 2016 3:27:16 GMT
I'm a little confused that many people read the Tyrion negotiations in Meereen this episode as some sort of mistake. I think what they are demonstrating is that Tyrion is an extremely smart politician and that he is the first person linked to Dany that is going to actually accomplish something that would (in theory) work as a longterm solution in Slaver's Bay. Tyrion was right in pointing out that Dany's strategy was to abolish slavery without providing a viable alternative to the region regarding how they were going to recoup their losses (since slavery is their primary industry). We all know that in the show and books, Dany isn't going to leave Slaver's Bay as a slave-free zone where everyone says "thanks for fixing everything, now get yourself to Westeros!" It's going to be a mess that she's going to have to more or less abandon or destroy. Tyrion is bringing politics to an area and compromise whereby Dany's ultimate goal of abolishing slavery can actually realistically occur. Missandei and Grey Worm are objecting to this course because of their deeply rooted interests and because they aren't especially bright when it comes to politics. That's understandable. Now it could happen that Tyrion's offer might not have an effect and the Slavers decide to try and take down Meereen anyways because they're selfish dicks, but Tyrion knows that this is the best play in a situation where they are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. He's also just trying to stall for time until Dany comes back and this is the best way to do so. They need the SotH shut down and cutting off their support and funding in the short term makes this an achievable goal. I think it's weird that so many people think that Tyrion somehow needs some kind of comeuppance here. He is the smartest guy in the room (this is always the case in the books too) and they need to demonstrate this every once and a while. The problem is not that Tyrion didn't make good points, the problem is that he doesn't really know Essos or the masters, just like Missandei and Grey Worm said, but he is acting like he does, and is not listening to the people who do have experience. He wants to make a quick deal so Danny can go back to Westeros ASAP, but for Missandei and GW and all the freed slaves, what matters is to end slavery forever and punish the masters for what they have done |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 16, 2016 3:28:35 GMT
Dany does try to compromise with the masters in the books, and it backfires because the masters are greedy and can't bear to let Meereen stand free. So I don't see any reason it would work differently in the show, and think Tyrion has made a mistake treating with the Masters.
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Post by King Tommen on May 16, 2016 3:33:53 GMT
I'm a little confused that many people read the Tyrion negotiations in Meereen this episode as some sort of mistake. I think what they are demonstrating is that Tyrion is an extremely smart politician and that he is the first person linked to Dany that is going to actually accomplish something that would (in theory) work as a longterm solution in Slaver's Bay. Tyrion was right in pointing out that Dany's strategy was to abolish slavery without providing a viable alternative to the region regarding how they were going to recoup their losses (since slavery is their primary industry). We all know that in the show and books, Dany isn't going to leave Slaver's Bay as a slave-free zone where everyone says "thanks for fixing everything, now get yourself to Westeros!" It's going to be a mess that she's going to have to more or less abandon or destroy. Tyrion is bringing politics to an area and compromise whereby Dany's ultimate goal of abolishing slavery can actually realistically occur. Missandei and Grey Worm are objecting to this course because of their deeply rooted interests and because they aren't especially bright when it comes to politics. That's understandable. Now it could happen that Tyrion's offer might not have an effect and the Slavers decide to try and take down Meereen anyways because they're selfish dicks, but Tyrion knows that this is the best play in a situation where they are hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned. He's also just trying to stall for time until Dany comes back and this is the best way to do so. They need the SotH shut down and cutting off their support and funding in the short term makes this an achievable goal. I think it's weird that so many people think that Tyrion somehow needs some kind of comeuppance here. He is the smartest guy in the room (this is always the case in the books too) and they need to demonstrate this every once and a while. The problem is not that Tyrion didn't make good points, the problem is that he doesn't really know Essos or the masters, just like Missandei and Grey Worm said, but he is acting like he does, and is not listening to the people who do have experience. He wants to make a quick deal so Danny can go back to Westeros ASAP, but for Missandei and GW and all the freed slaves, what matters is to end slavery forever and punish the masters for what they have done He's making the most prudent offer to get them out of the situation they're in. It may not work, but it's a whole lot better than the status quo that was going on with Dany ruling shit in Meereen. The conversation he has with Missandei and Grey Worm afterwords is the key. Yeah it would be great if slavery were abolished and war never happened and lalala. But the truth is, that's a fairy tale and you need to cut deals and make compromises if you want to make progress. He knows that the masters are motivated by money, not slavery. And he's offering them an out by giving them 7 years which probably allows them to think that it's plenty of time for them to do what they need to do to continue with business as usual. Tyrion's goal is not to end slavery, it's to buy time and neutralize the SotH, who are the immediate threat. If he can convince these guys to back off and not fund them anymore, then they can be dealt with and Dany can have something to build on when she gets back. I don't think it's going to go that well but Tyrion has very few options available to him and he's actually taking action, something Dany didn't really have the stones to do. |
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Post by day dreamer on May 16, 2016 3:34:12 GMT
 Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him.  I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though.
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Post by queenalysanne on May 16, 2016 3:34:27 GMT
That episode was amazing! The Jon/Sansa scenes and the Dany final scene stole the episode for me. Time to rewatch!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 3:37:07 GMT
That episode was amazing! The Jon/Sansa scenes and the Dany final scene stole the episode for me. Time to rewatch! OMG! You're e here. Welcome, welcome! |
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Post by King Tommen on May 16, 2016 3:37:41 GMT
Dany does try to compromise with the masters in the books, and it backfires because the masters are greedy and can't bear to let Meereen stand free. So I don't see any reason it would work differently in the show, and think Tyrion has made a mistake treating with the Masters. Dany's compromise sucked because she still insisted on there being zero tolerance for slavery when it was the industry that fueled the whole region. She gave no viable alternative for a replacement industry. So whatever assurances or compromises she was making otherwise weren't going to be met favorably. Tyrion addresses the crux of the problem, which is why it is far more likely to be effective (in theory). They could still be greedy dicks but you can even see that this offer gives them serious cause to consider it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 3:38:03 GMT
Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him. I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though. I couldn't tell ei Her, but it was still lovely to finally see two Starks together again. |
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Post by queenalysanne on May 16, 2016 3:38:44 GMT
That episode was amazing! The Jon/Sansa scenes and the Dany final scene stole the episode for me. Time to rewatch! OMG! You're e here. Welcome, welcome! Yes! Love your av by the way  |
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on May 16, 2016 3:41:11 GMT
Dany does try to compromise with the masters in the books, and it backfires because the masters are greedy and can't bear to let Meereen stand free. So I don't see any reason it would work differently in the show, and think Tyrion has made a mistake treating with the Masters. Dany's compromise sucked because she still insisted on there being zero tolerance for slavery when it was the industry that fueled the whole region. She gave no viable alternative for a replacement industry. So whatever assurances or compromises she was making otherwise weren't going to be met favorably. Tyrion addresses the crux of the problem, which is why it is far more likely to be effective (in theory). They could still be greedy dicks but you can even see that this offer gives them serious cause to consider it. Dany eventually allows slavery to continue outside of Meereen, the exact thing Tyrion is doing, so I'm not sure how her compromise sucks and his doesn't. They both suck and the masters can't be trusted. |
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Post by boojam on May 16, 2016 3:43:44 GMT
Funny that the Dothraki dude with the abs who was the douchiest to Dany of all of them in 601 is the one of them who survived. That was funny! You know I thought for sure Joe would stick around and survive the 'Carrie' event. |
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mandzipop
Grumpkin 
Still in recovery from a naked Jon Snow
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Post by mandzipop on May 16, 2016 3:53:12 GMT
Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him. I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though. I think that he's picking her up. The only way they could get round it. But that was a lovely scene. Their reunion was great. Nice to finally have some backstory to their relationship. Basically, there is no sibling relationship. She picked on him and when the kids were playing and she was with them, he didn't join in. Well, at least she's given him a purpose, good old big brother protection mode. At least we know why the wildlings are involved. Ramsey threatened them too. |
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Post by day dreamer on May 16, 2016 3:56:35 GMT
Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him. I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though. At least we know why the wildlings are involved. Ramsey threatened them too. I liked that detail. So it's not the Wildlings just following Jon because he saved them, it's because Ramsay is waging war on them too. Poor Tormund though, he's going to he heartbroken that Sansa is sending Brienne on a mission. |
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Post by King Tommen on May 16, 2016 3:56:59 GMT
Dany's compromise sucked because she still insisted on there being zero tolerance for slavery when it was the industry that fueled the whole region. She gave no viable alternative for a replacement industry. So whatever assurances or compromises she was making otherwise weren't going to be met favorably. Tyrion addresses the crux of the problem, which is why it is far more likely to be effective (in theory). They could still be greedy dicks but you can even see that this offer gives them serious cause to consider it. Dany eventually allows slavery to continue outside of Meereen, the exact thing Tyrion is doing, so I'm not sure how her compromise sucks and his doesn't. They both suck and the masters can't be trusted. Yeah, again, her terms are that they can't have any of their slaves back and have to basically start from scratch which isn't really a viable solution. |
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Hound Dog
Sweet Summer Child
Ghost is Azor Ahai.
Posts: 115
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Post by Hound Dog on May 16, 2016 4:18:40 GMT
Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him. I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though. I couldn't tell ei Her, but it was still lovely to finally see two Starks together again. It looked to me like she jumped and he caught her. But Sophie IS a couple inches taller than Kit, so maybe the showrunners just meant to give the impression that he was lifting her up to make the height differences less obvious.  |
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Hound Dog
Sweet Summer Child
Ghost is Azor Ahai.
Posts: 115
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Post by Hound Dog on May 16, 2016 4:25:42 GMT
I'm sorry to see Osha go, but that Ramsay-Osha scene was marvelous. The look he gave her when she shrugged and said, "I've seen worse" made me giggle. It was as though he was acknowledging she was a badass and he was appreciative of that quality.
And after he killed her -- to clean his knife and sit there and eat the apple while she lay bleeding out in front of him was, of course, horrifying -- but it nicely captured his sociopathic personality.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 4:31:14 GMT
So was the other Khaleesi only help locking the doors?
I assume if she had put some kind of accelerant down where the khal were meeting they would have showed it, right?
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on May 16, 2016 4:35:26 GMT
Can't tell if he's lifting her up or if she's towering over him. I cried during this scene. I'm genuinely surprised that I didn't hate the Mel/Davos/Brienne scene. I expected to, but LSH hype got me through it. I do wish Davos and Mel were in the scene where the pink letter was read though. I think that he's picking her up. The only way they could get round it. But that was a lovely scene. Their reunion was great. Nice to finally have some backstory to their relationship. Basically, there is no sibling relationship. She picked on him and when the kids were playing and she was with them, he didn't join in. Well, at least she's given him a purpose, good old big brother protection mode. At least we know why the wildlings are involved. Ramsey threatened them too. Sounds like a sibling relationship to me. In my experience being snots to each other is more common than being perfect bffs like Jon/Arya. But what do I know? None of my siblings have any blood relation to me. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 4:39:31 GMT
At least we know why the wildlings are involved. Ramsey threatened them too. I liked that detail. So it's not the Wildlings just following Jon because he saved them, it's because Ramsay is waging war on them too. Poor Tormund though, he's going to he heartbroken that Sansa is sending Brienne on a mission. I'm totally shipping Tormund and Brienne! Didn't look like Brienne was too crazy about the fiery red wildling man eyeing her up though ... Tormund can recognize a real woman when he sees one, eh?  As for the debate about whether or not Tyrion's motives in political deals with the Masters was a good idea or not - I think both sides have points worth respecting in this argument. On one hand we know Missandei is right, the Masters know only one language and they'll try to screw Tyrion and thus Daenerys over at the first chance they get. But on the other hand, we should appreciate Tyrion's efforts - speaking their language a bit (God of Tits and Wine afterall) to try and buy some time for Dany to return and a better plan presents itself. One thing Tyrion is very good at is bullshitting and manipulating others with his big talk. He has spent his life agreeing with everyone that he's just an ugly dwarf while somehow managing to always get what he wants (mostly) by talking his way in or out of things. We should remember how neatly he wrapped up things in King's Landing during his brief tenure as Hand... moreso in the books than on the show. He was brilliant and he's clearly managed to catch the Masters off guard with his offer to work out a deal with them and then give them women as gifts (probably not as slaves, just an evening of fun paid for by Tyrion or Varys). Now he -is- speaking their language and we know they'll at least listen to him a bit after that little demonstration. It was buying time and bullshitting them. As for the slave leaders - less so convincing there. Obviously they are offended he drank wine and talked peace with the Masters. They only want revenge. That makes them as stupid as the Masters just on the opposite side. Tyrion will have a much harder time convincing them as he's not "one of them" so he had to rely on the lucky fortune that both Missandei and Grey Worm would speak on his behalf in that case. I am glad they both did even though they didn't want to ... they knew they couldn't let that get out of hand. They're not politicians - they cannot lead, so they have to let Tyrion. I liked the Meereen politics this episode. It sets the stage for the tension necessary for the whole thing to cave in. Not because Tyrion caused it - it was probably doomed to happen anyways. But as King Tommen said, Tyrion is smart enough to try and stall for time and to find a way to get the Sons of the Harpy to stop their attacks at least for awhile. If he accomplishes those two things, then everything will hold off until Daenerys gets there with the Khalasar. |
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mandzipop
Grumpkin
Still in recovery from a naked Jon Snow
Posts: 333
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Post by mandzipop on May 16, 2016 4:40:08 GMT
I think that he's picking her up. The only way they could get round it. But that was a lovely scene. Their reunion was great. Nice to finally have some backstory to their relationship. Basically, there is no sibling relationship. She picked on him and when the kids were playing and she was with them, he didn't join in. Well, at least she's given him a purpose, good old big brother protection mode. At least we know why the wildlings are involved. Ramsey threatened them too. Sounds like a sibling relationship to me. In my experience being snots to each other is more common than being perfect bffs like Jon/Arya. But what do I know? None of my siblings have any blood relation to me. Maybe I ought to rephrase that as my meaning was they didn't get on and avoided interacting with each other as kids. |
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