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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 15:28:28 GMT
Anyone else disappointed that we see Sansa and Theon fall about 60 feet and not land ?
Even a big snow bank or hay stack would have hurt.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 15:33:06 GMT
Anyone else disappointed that we see Sansa and Theon fall about 60 feet and not land ? Even a big snow bank or hay stack would have hurt. I'd probably be more disappointed if we had to endure both of them conducting the rest of the season hampered by broken legs because we suddenly need the show to adhere strictly to the laws of physics. I'm ok with a cheat every now and again. They jumped into a pile of snow and were ok, I'll accept that. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:35:37 GMT
Probably not, but I'm bothered by it a lot, ngl.  With Doran and Trystane both dead, I think it would be far more likely that one of the other great Dornish houses would try to claim Sunspear for themselves. No one is going to accept Ellaria Sand, a bastard and the assassin of Prince Doran, as the new Princess of Dorne, even if they are generally more accepting of bastards than the rest of Westeros - she has no claim. Also, the whole thing is just really dumb, imo. Why did Trystane deserve to die, what did he do? He was totally innocent and they killed him anyway, how are they any better than Tywin, who ordered the killings of Elia's and Rhaegar's children for political reasons? Trystane was their own flesh and blood, and not only did they kill him in cold-blood, they even made jokes, that was kinda disgusting. Oberyn died in an attempt to avenge his sister, and now his own daughters killed his brother and nephew, for what? I don't know, to me this is the biggest fuck-up of the show to date, I didn't like Dorne last season, but now I hate it. It throws any logic out the window, it happened, because they wanted it to happen, not because it actually made sense. I think they made it clear on the show that Doran has no ulterior motives and is in actuality the weak, fence-sitter that the books have him appear as outwardly. So given that change in character, it's perfectly logical that Ellaria and the Sandsnakes would finally get fed up with his BS and take him out. He didn't do anything when his sister died, and then he didn't do anything when his brother died. For Ellaria and co, this is reason enough to finally pull the trigger on a coup because they have determined he is a weak ruler who will not stand up for Dorne. Trystane had to go as well because he is the rightful heir and feels much the way his father does. They never had any real love for either of them and it showed in the scenes from S5. They had finally gathered enough political support to go through with their coup and started the plan off by ensure Myrcella was murdered in revenge. There is also an undercurrent that the Dornish women have had it with the current patriarchal ruling system there and want the women in charge because they'll actually act. So I think it tracks well in terms of logic. Where the storyline fails mostly is in execution because they rushed through everything quickly in about 5 minutes and didn't really telegraph it that well in the finale (or just had everything happen there instead of the following season). I'm guessing because this arc had not been finalized in S5 and once they realized this was the path they needed to have, they decided to pull the trigger as quickly as possible in the premiere to clear the decks so that Ellaria was in place for Varys (and eventually Dany's) arrival in Dorne later. I'm glad that you wrote down everything I wanted to say in a perfect summary. I think the main problem is, as you said the execution. I don't buy Tyene taking out Areo on her own. Dorne always seems to be a problem with very limited time on set, struggling with accents and the execution of fighting scenes. |
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Post by Basil on Apr 25, 2016 15:36:40 GMT
I didn't say Ellaria and the Sand Snakes had no motives. I'm saying that it would be a huge fucking plot hole, imo, if the rest of Dorne would just quietly accept the destruction of House Martell and submit to the rule of Ellaria Sand.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:39:31 GMT
I didn't say Ellaria and the Sand Snakes had no motives. I'm saying that it would be a huge fucking plot hole, imo, if the rest of Dorne would just quietly accept the destruction of House Martell and submit to the rule of Ellaria Sand. I think what the show is trying to sell us is that the vast majority of Dorne actually agrees with Ellaria. 95% of Dorne are mad at Doran and want him gone. As to who is going to rule: they will happily accept one of Oberyn's daughters.  |
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Post by Basil on Apr 25, 2016 15:42:11 GMT
I didn't say Ellaria and the Sand Snakes had no motives. I'm saying that it would be a huge fucking plot hole, imo, if the rest of Dorne would just quietly accept the destruction of House Martell and submit to the rule of Ellaria Sand. 95% of Dorne are mad at Doran and want him gone. As to who is going to rule: they will happily accept one of Oberyn's daughters. Well, I'm not buying it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:42:23 GMT
So, the Sand Snakes want to avenge their father? So they go and kill their uncle and cousin. They felt like their uncle and cousin were the major impediments in getting revenge. And they were kind of right. If you want to go to war with the Lannisters and your ruler says no even after his own brother and sister were murdered by them, you are kind of backed into a corner, no? Only Elia was murdered. I still fail to see why they want revenge for Oberyn. IIRC in the books the SS care more about Elia. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:43:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:45:05 GMT
Question:
I was reading around other forums and some people have mentioned that Sansa forgetting the words to the oath made her look like she was dumb. I took it as Sansa forgetting the words because she was so frazzled by what had just happened.
I dono, what do you guys think.
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 15:45:57 GMT
I didn't say Ellaria and the Sand Snakes had no motives. I'm saying that it would be a huge fucking plot hole, imo, if the rest of Dorne would just quietly accept the destruction of House Martell and submit to the rule of Ellaria Sand. I think what the show is trying to sell us is that the vast majority of Dorne actually agrees with Ellaria. 95% of Dorne are mad at Doran and want him gone. As to who is going to rule: they will happily accept one of Oberyn's daughters. Yes, they made this clear when they showed the household guards on board and then when Ellaria EXPLICITLY TOLD Doran that his subjects thought he was a spineless chump and wanted a change. I mean, I guess they could have continued the scene with a bunch of random reps from households all coming forward and saying "I agree with Ellaria" one after the other, but they probably felt like it was clear enough. I think it's implied that the coup was a while in the making and that Ellaria had gotten the principles of Dorne all on board with her actions. |
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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 15:47:16 GMT
It is interesting how Arya's story shadows the book story. She kept being tormented by the KM with the stick stuff.
The stick whacking was part of her training , which even in the books did not seem very systematic. We know we have the theater group from Winds of Winter up the line. But then things, 'diverge?' from the book.
The way a number of stories have become Drool Stories , on the show, may happen again ... so is this going to be a case of 'remember the FM, well forget them' ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:48:13 GMT
Question: I was reading around other forums and some people have mentioned that Sansa forgetting the words to the oath made her look like she was dumb. I took it as Sansa forgetting the words because she was so frazzled by what had just happened. I dono, what do you guys think. Smh at the stupidity of those people then. |
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Post by King Tommen on Apr 25, 2016 15:48:21 GMT
Question: I was reading around other forums and some people have mentioned that Sansa forgetting the words to the oath made her look like she was dumb. I took it as Sansa forgetting the words because she was so frazzled by what had just happened. I dono, what do you guys think. I think there is a segment of the fanbase that looks at every single thing that Sansa does and if she isn't portrayed like a future queen/leader etc, they think it's some kind of knock on the character. I also think those people should take a step back and breathe every once and a while. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:48:59 GMT
Question: I was reading around other forums and some people have mentioned that Sansa forgetting the words to the oath made her look like she was dumb. I took it as Sansa forgetting the words because she was so frazzled by what had just happened. I dono, what do you guys think. She just forgot the words because she has never been in a situation like that. |
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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 15:51:34 GMT
Question: I was reading around other forums and some people have mentioned that Sansa forgetting the words to the oath made her look like she was dumb. I took it as Sansa forgetting the words because she was so frazzled by what had just happened. I dono, what do you guys think. Smh at the stupidity of those people then. The show had it that Pod is a expert in court protocol, kind of interesting, so gave him something to say. I don't really think it was needed . Sansa then stiffens her back and the rest is well put with a firm voice. |
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valyrianshadow
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Post by valyrianshadow on Apr 25, 2016 15:54:24 GMT
Too bad we don't get bloopers. You know funny stuff was going down while Kit was pretending to be dead.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:56:34 GMT
I think Sansa has had other, more urgent things on her mind since the beginning of the show. Remembering the exact words to an oath was not very high on her list of priorities I imagine. Lord, some people. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 15:58:58 GMT
Well, I hated it too, but the show gives us two explanations: 1.) Ellaria and the Sand Snakes know that they would be executed for it. So they either had to flee or kill Doran (and by extension Trystane) before they had the chance to execute them. 2.) Ellaria sees Doran has a weak ruler and traitor to his own family, because he didn't do anything to avenge Elia and Oberyn. So she felt justified in killing them. The motivations make sense to me, I just don't agree with them. Ninja'd by King Tommen There is definitely a logic to it. As soon as it happened my husband said "Saw that coming a mile away." And I'm like WTF really? He looked at me like I was nuts. Yes, these bitches have been spoiling for revenge in the show. I think us book readers were just conditioned to expect something else. I don't like it either...but it could mean we have to spend less time in Dorne, so...maybe not so terrible? I feel like Doran was majorly wasted. I've been expecting him to have a big ulterior plot. So, yeah, shocked I got one so very wrong!  |
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Post by boojam on Apr 25, 2016 16:05:50 GMT
I thought the Theon - Sansa sequence was really good.
Theon and Sansa grew up together and even tho he is not a Stark , he also almost not a Greyjoy, his father hates him.
Something philēo between them.
So it touching to have him determined to save Sansa and even sacrifice himself for her.
Think about it, Sansa has not seen family for a long long time, Theon is the closest until she sees Jon ( I guess that will happen?) Except for his sister Theon has not seen anyone who is 'family' for a long long time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 16:06:59 GMT
They felt like their uncle and cousin were the major impediments in getting revenge. And they were kind of right. If you want to go to war with the Lannisters and your ruler says no even after his own brother and sister were murdered by them, you are kind of backed into a corner, no? Only Elia was murdered. I still fail to see why they want revenge for Oberyn. IIRC in the books the SS care more about Elia. Actually that's not true. In the first Dorne chapter we learn that the Sand Snakes want revenge for Oberyn. The SS call it murder in the books too. |
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