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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2016 5:12:08 GMT
I was quite surprised when they won an Emmy for S5 considering all the negative feedback leading up to then, but honestly the award was long overdue so looking at the show as a whole in its 5 Seasons, they deserved it. I will say though that if you forget Sansa's rape, Dorne, and the way Stannis was handled in the last 2 episodes, it still was a very good season for me at least. Yes there could be other elements to criticize, but S6 is looking to be really good so far so you know what, I'm one of the few that can forgive the writers for the mistakes they made in S5. I thought season 5 was the weakest season, but I still enjoyed it. I would have preferred if they won the emmy for one of the seasons that came before it. I just find it out when people say that D&D know they've screwed up and made a mistake when everything, from critical reception to viewer ratings to awards, should tell them the exact opposite. It depends really on how critical the viewer is. I've seen both Unsullied and Book readers say that D&D screwed up because of how they handled characters and storylines and structured episodes and then others who have praised them for taking on such a massive series and being able to more or less successfully balance many different storylines into a 10 episode season. Now I would assume that D&D knew how controversial S5 would be given the changes they made and they essentially could be for a lot of different reasons that we won't really know until the show is done because like many have said, ADOS will probably be released long after the show is over or not at all. But yes it's still one of the most successful shows to date. However, that doesn't mean that they still can't improve as writers.
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Post by day dreamer on Jan 5, 2016 13:31:22 GMT
D&D's Emmy wasn't for season 5. It was a consolation Emmy since they've never been able to award Game of Thrones before.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 23:40:46 GMT
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 12:39:15 GMT
Its good that we are -apparently- getting changes (gotta see it to believe it). Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows.
Before you dismiss me and others as part of the 'PC brigade' (which is quite condescending)...
first off: I do care about Jeyne Poole and was absolutely disgusted at what happened to her. Lots of people care. So stop with the whole 'you wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole' trash. It's insulting. I know I sound angry, but rape is an extremely sensitive topic.
The difference is that Jeyne is put in a plotline that comments on society as a whole (people only care cause they think she's Arya Stark, not a lowborn girl, Jeyne Poole). That, and the arc which she is in has northern lords, Freys (and pies), a hooded murderer, mance rayder and the spearwives, a prophecy by mel, the hearttree sequence with Theon / Bran... all gone in the adaption.
Except the rape and abuse.
Why? Why is dialing back a main character's characterization, repeating essentially, her S2 & S3 plotline is something that must happen. Characters such as Roose Bolton and Littlefinger acted OOC and frankly, stupid for this plotline to happen.
And apparently Sansa 'had' to be raped. Um... okay, because she had no reason to hate the Boltons, Ramsay in particular (for burning down her home). We knew Ramsay was a monster. Why did they have to marry? It was so pointless and trashy. The writing was so bad in S5, where the writers made characters act so strange for events to happen.
Urgh.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 13:12:54 GMT
Its good that we are -apparently- getting changes (gotta see it to believe it). Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows. Before you dismiss me and others as part of the 'PC brigade' (which is quite condescending)... first off: I do care about Jeyne Poole and was absolutely disgusted at what happened to her. Lots of people care. So stop with the whole 'you wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole' trash. It's insulting. I know I sound angry, but rape is an extremely sensitive topic. The difference is that Jeyne is put in a plotline that comments on society as a whole (people only care cause they think she's Arya Stark, not a lowborn girl, Jeyne Poole). That, and the arc which she is in has northern lords, Freys (and pies), a hooded murderer, mance rayder and the spearwives, a prophecy by mel, the hearttree sequence with Theon / Bran... all gone in the adaption. Except the rape and abuse. Why? Why is dialing back a main character's characterization, repeating essentially, her S2 & S3 plotline is something that must happen. Characters such as Roose Bolton and Littlefinger acted OOC and frankly, stupid for this plotline to happen. And apparently Sansa 'had' to be raped. Um... okay, because she had no reason to hate the Boltons, Ramsay in particular (for burning down her home). We knew Ramsay was a monster. Why did they have to marry? It was so pointless and trashy. The writing was so bad in S5, where the writers made characters act so strange for events to happen. Urgh. Have you even read what I posted two posts ago?
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 13:32:08 GMT
Its good that we are -apparently- getting changes (gotta see it to believe it). Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows. Before you dismiss me and others as part of the 'PC brigade' (which is quite condescending)... first off: I do care about Jeyne Poole and was absolutely disgusted at what happened to her. Lots of people care. So stop with the whole 'you wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole' trash. It's insulting. I know I sound angry, but rape is an extremely sensitive topic. The difference is that Jeyne is put in a plotline that comments on society as a whole (people only care cause they think she's Arya Stark, not a lowborn girl, Jeyne Poole). That, and the arc which she is in has northern lords, Freys (and pies), a hooded murderer, mance rayder and the spearwives, a prophecy by mel, the hearttree sequence with Theon / Bran... all gone in the adaption. Except the rape and abuse. Why? Why is dialing back a main character's characterization, repeating essentially, her S2 & S3 plotline is something that must happen. Characters such as Roose Bolton and Littlefinger acted OOC and frankly, stupid for this plotline to happen. And apparently Sansa 'had' to be raped. Um... okay, because she had no reason to hate the Boltons, Ramsay in particular (for burning down her home). We knew Ramsay was a monster. Why did they have to marry? It was so pointless and trashy. The writing was so bad in S5, where the writers made characters act so strange for events to happen. Urgh. Have you even read what I posted two posts ago? Yes. There is no need to be rude. My point wasn't targeted towards you, it was in response towards the posts on the first page.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 13:39:10 GMT
Have you even read what I posted two posts ago? Yes. There is no need to be rude. My point wasn't targeted towards you, it was in response towards the posts on the first page. I'm not being rude and your opinion is completely valid, but please consider how you express it. Starting a post with "Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows." is very polemical and there is absolutely no reason to write stuff like that, especially when Cogman's statement directly contradicts this. Ironically, this is what comes off as condescending and rude. No one will want to have a civil discussion with you if you don't express yourself in a more objective and civil tone.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 13:51:27 GMT
Yes. There is no need to be rude. My point wasn't targeted towards you, it was in response towards the posts on the first page. I'm not being rude and your opinion is completely valid, but please consider how you express it. Starting a post with "Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows." is very polemic and there is absolutely no reason to write stuff like that, especially when Cogman's statement directly contradicts this. Ironically, this is what comes off as condescending and rude. No one will want to have a civil discussion with you if you don't express yourself in a more objective and civil tone. That's... not how I started my response. And me thinking that? Totally valid. Honestly, the attempted rapes of Meera, Gilly... I am completely justified in believing that they would stoop so low to do that. Because they have. They raped Cersei for... reasons. So no, I'm not going to shed a tear for them. And you were being rude. Of course I read it? I'm not going to post an opinion unless someone has already said it? D&D and Cogman are being condescending and rude to the audience. All of the time. How am I being condescending and rude? For not wanting words put in my mouths and others? For actually saying that rape is a sensitive topic and should be portrayed right? For actually being angry over it, which I am definitely allowed to be? There are consequences to portraying rape is such a crass, gross manner. It's hurtful to watch, and I am definitely going to voice it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 13:58:33 GMT
I'm not being rude and your opinion is completely valid, but please consider how you express it. Starting a post with "Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows." is very polemic and there is absolutely no reason to write stuff like that, especially when Cogman's statement directly contradicts this. Ironically, this is what comes off as condescending and rude. No one will want to have a civil discussion with you if you don't express yourself in a more objective and civil tone. That's... not how I started my response. Yes, quickly followed by what I quoted. It's still irritating. I'm not discussing content with you, btw. I'm merely discussing form. As I said, your opinion is completely valid to have and I'm not arguing against your opinion. But please reconsider how you expressed it. No reasonable and fertile discussion can develop from that.
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Post by day dreamer on Feb 20, 2016 14:01:04 GMT
first off: I do care about Jeyne Poole and was absolutely disgusted at what happened to her. Lots of people care. So stop with the whole 'you wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole' trash. It's insulting. I know I sound angry, but rape is an extremely sensitive topic. Here's the thing though, book readers would care about Jeyne Poole. I think we all do here, but the people behind The Mary Sue and half the tumblr SJWs out there would not care as much as they would Sansa, I'm sure of it. There wasn't an uproar when Caster's wives/daughters were being raped. None with the girl being fondled in the Inn during 401. The uproar came with Sansa, a big player on this show. I don't doubt for one second had it happened to Jeyne on the show, while there would be people upset, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as this.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 14:14:09 GMT
first off: I do care about Jeyne Poole and was absolutely disgusted at what happened to her. Lots of people care. So stop with the whole 'you wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole' trash. It's insulting. I know I sound angry, but rape is an extremely sensitive topic. Here's the thing though, book readers would care about Jeyne Poole. I think we all do here, but the people behind The Mary Sue and half the tumblr SJWs out there would not care as much as they would Sansa, I'm sure of it. There wasn't an uproar when Caster's wives/daughters were being raped. None with the girl being fondled in the Inn during 401. The uproar came with Sansa, a big player on this show. I don't doubt for one second had it happened to Jeyne on the show, while there would be people upset, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as this. Well, a previous post said alot of people wouldn't... I understand what you are saying, but people were irritated by the abuse in the inn 401, and the Craster's Keep in S4 had widespread disgust on tumblr. We weren't shown Craster raping a woman, it was implied. I can speak for myself, and some of the disgust stems out that she had her own plotline, she had a storyline to go, but that was shoved aside to rape her. My biggest problem with GRRM is actually, what happened to Lollys Stokeworth and Jeyne Poole. But D&D's adaption was done in such a crass, offensive way. I actually don't pay much attention to those anti got blogs on tumblr, I don't follow them (but I agree with around 60% of things they say). I do, however, understand peoples frustrations with them and if we are thinking about the same blogs here - yeah, they can take it too far. My point was that its literally unfair to apply to a whole group of people, stating they wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole, or that they are part of a 'PC' brigade.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 14:16:27 GMT
That's... not how I started my response. Yes, quickly followed by what I quoted. It's still irritating. I'm not discussing content with you, btw. I'm merely discussing form. As I said, your opinion is completely valid to have and I'm not arguing against your opinion. But please reconsider how you expressed it. No reasonable and fertile discussion can develop from that. Well, my behaviour could be consisted as coming from a place of anger, that doesn't mean aggression. I do consider how I express it, and if you have a problem with that, please do not say 'did you even read' or something similar, and at least give me the respect of saying something private via message.
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Post by day dreamer on Feb 20, 2016 14:20:08 GMT
Here's the thing though, book readers would care about Jeyne Poole. I think we all do here, but the people behind The Mary Sue and half the tumblr SJWs out there would not care as much as they would Sansa, I'm sure of it. There wasn't an uproar when Caster's wives/daughters were being raped. None with the girl being fondled in the Inn during 401. The uproar came with Sansa, a big player on this show. I don't doubt for one second had it happened to Jeyne on the show, while there would be people upset, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as this. Well, a previous post said alot of people wouldn't... I understand what you are saying, but people were irritated by the abuse in the inn 401, and the Craster's Keep in S4 had widespread disgust on tumblr. We weren't shown Craster raping a woman, it was implied. I can speak for myself, and some of the disgust stems out that she had her own plotline, she had a storyline to go, but that was shoved aside to rape her. My biggest problem with GRRM is actually, what happened to Lollys Stokeworth and Jeyne Poole. But D&D's adaption was done in such a crass, offensive way. I actually don't pay much attention to those anti got blogs on tumblr, I don't follow them (but I agree with around 60% of things they say). I do, however, understand peoples frustrations with them and if we are thinking about the same blogs here - yeah, they can take it too far. My point was that its literally unfair to apply to a whole group of people, stating they wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole, or that they are part of a 'PC' brigade. The Night's Watch men were showed raping Caster's wives in, was it 404? I get what you're saying too, and my annoyance over it stems from switching the stories too, but I still stand by most not caring if it were Jeyne. It's a blanket label, but I do think it applies to a lot of non book fans. One of my friends in real life asked me if I was "as pissed as she was" about Sansa being raped the day after the episode. When I explained that my annoyance came from how illogical it was for Sansa to go along with that plan, and how juxtaposed with her "dark empowered Sansa" we saw in S4 was that it made no sense. She didn't even consider any of that. She only focused on the rape, which to me was only part of it. That's expected of Ramsay to do. I guess it just bothered me that the uproar was only focused on the rape instead of how the story was poorly written as a whole. There was a really great article that Admin shared at one point that touched up on that and I cannot for the live of me remember where it is.
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Post by kingeomer on Feb 20, 2016 14:29:11 GMT
Well, a previous post said alot of people wouldn't... I understand what you are saying, but people were irritated by the abuse in the inn 401, and the Craster's Keep in S4 had widespread disgust on tumblr. We weren't shown Craster raping a woman, it was implied. I can speak for myself, and some of the disgust stems out that she had her own plotline, she had a storyline to go, but that was shoved aside to rape her. My biggest problem with GRRM is actually, what happened to Lollys Stokeworth and Jeyne Poole. But D&D's adaption was done in such a crass, offensive way. I actually don't pay much attention to those anti got blogs on tumblr, I don't follow them (but I agree with around 60% of things they say). I do, however, understand peoples frustrations with them and if we are thinking about the same blogs here - yeah, they can take it too far. My point was that its literally unfair to apply to a whole group of people, stating they wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole, or that they are part of a 'PC' brigade. The Night's Watch men were showed raping Caster's wives in, was it 404? I get what you're saying too, and my annoyance over it stems from switching the stories too, but I still stand by most not caring if it were Jeyne. It's a blanket label, but I do think it applies to a lot of non book fans. One of my friends in real life asked me if I was "as pissed as she was" about Sansa being raped the day after the episode. When I explained that my annoyance came from how illogical it was for Sansa to go along with that plan, and how juxtaposed with her "dark empowered Sansa" we saw in S4 was that it made no sense. She didn't even consider any of that. She only focused on the rape, which to me was only part of it. That's expected of Ramsay to do. I guess it just bothered me that the uproar was only focused on the rape instead of how the story was poorly written as a whole.There was a really great article that Admin shared at one point that touched up on that and I cannot for the live of me remember where it is. The bolded is my problem with the whole storyline. I will go on record that if they kept the Jeyne Poole storyline in the show, I really would not have wanted to see that. I did not want Sansa raped either, but once they put her on an illogical collision course with the Boltons, specifically Ramsey, it was a trainwreck no one could avoid. I'd say that they did the decent thing by focusing on Theon during the actual scene. It was awful enough. I agree with Queen Carol though, if anyone had complained about the Jeyne Poole storyline-had it aired in the show-most people would have said it happened in the books to the naysayers. I think if it were Jeyne Poole, we would have not heard the outrage because it would have been muted by it happened in the books in some fashion. But as previously stated in this thread, if this storyline is causing D&D, Cogman, et al to reflect on how rape is portrayed in the show, I'm all for it...it's the one positive the Sansa controversy will have.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 14:30:27 GMT
Yes, quickly followed by what I quoted. It's still irritating. I'm not discussing content with you, btw. I'm merely discussing form. As I said, your opinion is completely valid to have and I'm not arguing against your opinion. But please reconsider how you expressed it. No reasonable and fertile discussion can develop from that. Well, my behaviour could be consisted as coming from a place of anger, that doesn't mean aggression. I do consider how I express it, and if you have a problem with that, please do not say 'did you even read' or something similar, and at least give me the respect of saying something private via message. My reaction had a lot to do with the history of this board and why it exists in the first place. Of course criticism of the show is absolutely allowed and welcomed here. I criticise the show quite often myself. But most users here wanted to escape the constant negativity of "that other place" and actually discuss the show in a civil manner, without succumbing to polemics or rants. The post I took offence with was unnecessarily polemical. I stand by it. And I'm not disrespecting you if I voice that opinion openly. I have nothing against you, mind you. In fact, I barely know you, so why would I have anything against you? But I and many others here don't react well to polemical rants, hence my grumpy reaction. Moreover, I cannot emphasize this enough: I don't mean to say your opinion is invalid, but the angry and argumentative tone is what I took issue with. That being said, I don't want to disrupt the discussion any further, so this is my last comment on the matter.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 14:31:35 GMT
Well, a previous post said alot of people wouldn't... I understand what you are saying, but people were irritated by the abuse in the inn 401, and the Craster's Keep in S4 had widespread disgust on tumblr. We weren't shown Craster raping a woman, it was implied. I can speak for myself, and some of the disgust stems out that she had her own plotline, she had a storyline to go, but that was shoved aside to rape her. My biggest problem with GRRM is actually, what happened to Lollys Stokeworth and Jeyne Poole. But D&D's adaption was done in such a crass, offensive way. I actually don't pay much attention to those anti got blogs on tumblr, I don't follow them (but I agree with around 60% of things they say). I do, however, understand peoples frustrations with them and if we are thinking about the same blogs here - yeah, they can take it too far. My point was that its literally unfair to apply to a whole group of people, stating they wouldn't care if it was Jeyne Poole, or that they are part of a 'PC' brigade. The Night's Watch men were showed raping Caster's wives in, was it 404? I get what you're saying too, and my annoyance over it stems from switching the stories too, but I still stand by most not caring if it were Jeyne. It's a blanket label, but I do think it applies to a lot of non book fans. One of my friends in real life asked me if I was "as pissed as she was" about Sansa being raped the day after the episode. When I explained that my annoyance came from how illogical it was for Sansa to go along with that plan, and how juxtaposed with her "dark empowered Sansa" we saw in S4 was that it made no sense. She didn't even consider any of that. She only focused on the rape, which to me was only part of it. That's expected of Ramsay to do. I guess it just bothered me that the uproar was only focused on the rape instead of how the story was poorly written as a whole. There was a really great article that Admin shared at one point that touched up on that and I cannot for the live of me remember where it is. Yes it was in Oathkeeper / 404 - Meera got assaulted in both that episode and the following one. I completely understand where you are coming from. For me, it was a fusion of everything. Like... she was getting powerful lords in the Vale's backing, they'd protect her (they loved Ned and wanted to fight for Robb). At first, I was just disgusted. I became angry after talking to rape victims, and hearing their perspective. I kind of think this was a 'breaking point' for alot of people. Game Of Thrones does have a sexual violence problem, and this was the moment when alot of people realized that it had been going on for a while and that it would only get worse. I don't object to rape being depicted- I believe it can be done in a way that takes note of the audiences sensitivities. Yes, its very hard to do. But I believe its possible. Now, my reaction is disgust, rage and embarrassment (for Sophie, Iwan, Michael, Alfie, Aiden). I am trying to remain hopeful, and that Sansa will be in a position of agency.
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Post by day dreamer on Feb 20, 2016 15:49:02 GMT
The complaint about "making it about Theon" seems contradicting to the original complaint too. Moving the camera to Theon wasn't making it "about him more than Sansa." Would they rather have the alternative and see her being raped? I sure as hell wouldn't. I don't want to see anyone being raped. Rape scenes make me uncomfortable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2016 17:09:02 GMT
Its good that we are -apparently- getting changes (gotta see it to believe it). Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows. well this was a dumbass thing to say. I know it's cool to shit on D&D, let's at least keep it reasonable.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 18:22:41 GMT
Its good that we are -apparently- getting changes (gotta see it to believe it). Like, I'm pretty sure if D&D and Cogman made the Harry Potter movies, they'd make Lucius Malfoy rape Luna Lovegood in the Deathly Hallows. well this was a dumbass thing to say. I know it's cool to shit on D&D, let's at least keep it reasonable. I don't do it because its 'cool'. Seriously what kind of patronizing shit is that. And I'm completely justified in thinking that. That tends to happen when you make a show that rapes characters for... reasons.
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Post by Madeleine on Feb 20, 2016 18:29:08 GMT
Well, my behaviour could be consisted as coming from a place of anger, that doesn't mean aggression. I do consider how I express it, and if you have a problem with that, please do not say 'did you even read' or something similar, and at least give me the respect of saying something private via message. My reaction had a lot to do with the history of this board and why it exists in the first place. Of course criticism of the show is absolutely allowed and welcomed here. I criticise the show quite often myself. But most users here wanted to escape the constant negativity of "that other place" and actually discuss the show in a civil manner, without succumbing to polemics or rants. The post I took offence with was unnecessarily polemical. I stand by it. And I'm not disrespecting you if I voice that opinion openly. I have nothing against you, mind you. In fact, I barely know you, so why would I have anything against you? But I and many others here don't react well to polemical rants, hence my grumpy reaction. Moreover, I cannot emphasize this enough: I don't mean to say your opinion is invalid, but the angry and argumentative tone is what I took issue with. That being said, I don't want to disrupt the discussion any further, so this is my last comment on the matter. 'My reaction had a lot to do with the history of this board' So um... why did you voice those in a reply to my post? It seems awfully directed at me. This is a page about rape. I am going to have a negative tone, a negative reaction. Especially when people- at the news of the showrunners changing their attitudes- are that its the 'PC' brigade. Of course I'm going to be outraged and offended. You can keep a cool tone? Good for you. But I don't have to, and spare me the tips on how to argue. Sorry I can't be all peaceful and happy-go-lucky all the time. Guess what, I can be enraged and civil at the same time which is exactly what I'm doing. If that makes me negative... I really don't care.
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