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Post by Singer of Death on Jul 5, 2016 22:10:34 GMT
I need to bask in this thread after reading a thread on /r/ASOIAF. I'll never understand how Cat gets so much hate. Because how dare a woman find herself incapable of loving (as she understands it) the product of her husband's extra-marital affair. I mean, the sheer cheek of it! How dare she! Seriously though, a lot of the criticism seems to stem from people who cannot get over the fact that she had a very human response to Jon Snow and found she could not love the living embodiment of her husband's infidelity. I know the sexism card is often trotted out when it isn't warranted, but here I feel it is. Had it been Ned unable to love Cat's illegitimate son, or whatever, I don't think he would get nearly as much hate. Because women have ovaries, so motherhood bitches! Thats part of why I love her so much as a character though. She embodies the Tully words of family, duty, honour, (in that order of priority) and you see this in all of her actions, even the ones people call out as being stupid. Family drove her to King's Landing; the letter from her sister and the attack on her son. Family led her to arrest the Imp at the Crossroads; on the evidence, she concluded he may be guilty of trying to kill Bran, and she knew if he reached Kings Landing her daughters and husband would be endangered. Family drove her to he Vale, relying (mistakenly, as it unfortunately happened) on her sister being welcoming to her kin. Family trumped duty and honour when it came to Jaime. Her daughter's well being was more important than petty wars. She advocated the peace option despite her grievances against the Lannisters because she wanted her family to be safe. All of this ended in catastrophe for her, with her thinking all three sons are dead, her husband dead, brother captured, sister gone mad, father dead, and her two daughters lost to her forever. It's all very tragic, and it's made even more so by her resurrection as Stoneheart. Even in death, she can't escape the grief that drove the last months of her life  I 100% rate this post. Beautifully sum up about the shitty criticisms Cat received due to her "complex" character. Half the people hates her due to her crossing hatred toward fans' beloved characters like Jon and Tyrion. Completely bullshit and bias. Nuff said./ Others hates her cause Cat make stupid decisions that result in most of the disasters that cause the downfall of her family and houses. While i do understand, her decision-making is the result of her depression and devastation. The shocking news when Cat heard that her children were killed by a turnacloak. That would obviously put a mother to a heavy heartbreak and Cat is no exception. The fact that she didn't get to see them one last time took an icing on a cake. In addition, Cat is no different from the other characters who make stupid decisions as well that cause huge downfall, particularly Sansa and Theon. Sansa is like 11 years old so she wouldn't think straight, Theon was suffering an identity crisis, Cat was traumatize by the murder of her children. So with such driven complicated psychological aspect that makes a character commit a flaw action, it makes them more realistic and i love the series for it. Fuck those who hates due to these reasons (especially the first one). Cat is a loving mother who is more complex and complicated than your stereotypical one. She is willing to risk herself and even others to save her family and i love that the series spun a twist to those journey. Instead of a mother who is suppose to forgive her enemies and espress compassion, the corruption and loss that a mother experienced to such brutality, we have Lady Stoneheart. |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jul 9, 2016 6:42:44 GMT
I need to bask in this thread after reading a thread on /r/ASOIAF. I'll never understand how Cat gets so much hate. What particularly confuses me is the haters who consider themselves fans of Ned, Arya and/or Brienne, 3 people who would jump to her defense if they heard the things said about Cat or the way people twist their relationships with her around. |
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 18, 2016 5:35:46 GMT
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 18, 2016 18:45:54 GMT
Considering how little screen time Michelle Fairley and Sean Bean had together...what terrific actors they both are that we believe in the love Ned and Catelyn had. GRRM's best couple for sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 12:19:53 GMT
The thing about Catelyn...how many characters in this series would have had that baby killed or insisted he not be allowed in Winterfell? How many characters would have hated Ned for it if he refused? She accepted the bastard and the living embodiment of Ned's only infraction against her into her home. She didn't love him, but she let him grow up next to her own children. And according to the little story she told, she prayed for his life.
Catelyn was a very good woman. Complex as hell, yes, but fundamentally good.
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Post by Basil on Jul 19, 2016 12:40:40 GMT
The thing about Catelyn...how many characters in this series would have had that baby killed or insisted he not be allowed in Winterfell? How many characters would have hated Ned for it if he refused? She accepted the bastard and the living embodiment of Ned's only infraction against her into her home. She didn't love him, but she let him grow up next to her own children. And according to the little story she told, she prayed for his life. Catelyn was a very good woman. Complex as hell, yes, but fundamentally good. I honestly think a lot of people have a misconception about Cat's and Jon's relationship. They seem to think that Cat and Jon were like Cinderella and the evil stepmother to each other, that Catelyn abused Jon and actively sought out ways to be cruel to him. I don't think that's true, at least we have no reason to believe that it is. All we know is that her treatment of Jon was cold and distant, but not evil. What happened in Bran's sickroom was an isolated incident and we should treat it as such. Of course it was still a pretty despicable thing to say to a teenage boy, but it was not how Catelyn usually talked to Jon, she was not really herself in that moment due to grief and exhaustion. I love that aspect of her character. Martin could have easily written her as the perfect mother, who accepted her husband's bastard into her home with open arms, but he didn't, he decided to make her flawed and resentful, which makes her a much more complex and interesting character in my eyes. It makes me love her even more. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 12:47:58 GMT
The thing about Catelyn...how many characters in this series would have had that baby killed or insisted he not be allowed in Winterfell? How many characters would have hated Ned for it if he refused? She accepted the bastard and the living embodiment of Ned's only infraction against her into her home. She didn't love him, but she let him grow up next to her own children. And according to the little story she told, she prayed for his life. Catelyn was a very good woman. Complex as hell, yes, but fundamentally good. I honestly think a lot of people have a misconception about Cat's and Jon's relationship. They seem to think that Cat and Jon were like Cinderella and the evil stepmother to each other, that Catelyn abused Jon and actively sought out ways to be cruel to him. I don't think that's true, at least we have no reason to believe that it is. All we know is that her treatment of Jon was cold and distant, but not evil. What happened in Bran's sickroom was an isolated incident and we should treat it as such. Of course it was still a pretty despicable thing to say to a teenage boy, but it was not how Catelyn usually talked to Jon, she was not really herself in that moment due to grief and exhaustion. I love that aspect of her character. Martin could have easily written her as the perfect mother, who accepted her husband's bastard into her home with open arms, but he didn't, he decided to make her flawed and resentful, which makes her a much more complex and interesting character in my eyes. It makes me love her even more. I agree. The best evidence we have for this is the way Jon's siblings love him. If Cat were cruel and vindictive, she would have raised them apart from Jon, so that they would not have been friends. She would have taught them to hate Jon, to be jealous of him or to ignore him. It seems like Sansa was a bit of a butt to him, but she was like that to Arya too. We know the other siblings loved him. |
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Post by Basil on Jul 19, 2016 12:55:21 GMT
This comment.  |
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Post by Basil on Jul 19, 2016 12:58:57 GMT
She says: "A mother makes one for her children to protect them. Only a mother can make them." And she made one for Jon Snow. I never noticed.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 13:02:03 GMT
She says: "A mother makes one for her children to protect them. Only a mother can make them." And she made one for Jon Snow. I never noticed. Oh Ned, if only you'd told her! I'm sure Lyanna didn't mean Cat too!!  Of course, then we wouldn't have our story. |
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Post by Basil on Jul 22, 2016 11:47:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 13:01:59 GMT
When she told that little story, I think she accepted Jon as her own son. She just couldn't bring herself to openly love him. She felt too betrayed by Ned.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Jul 26, 2016 5:52:02 GMT
I honestly think a lot of people have a misconception about Cat's and Jon's relationship. They seem to think that Cat and Jon were like Cinderella and the evil stepmother to each other, that Catelyn abused Jon and actively sought out ways to be cruel to him. I don't think that's true, at least we have no reason to believe that it is. All we know is that her treatment of Jon was cold and distant, but not evil. What happened in Bran's sickroom was an isolated incident and we should treat it as such. Of course it was still a pretty despicable thing to say to a teenage boy, but it was not how Catelyn usually talked to Jon, she was not really herself in that moment due to grief and exhaustion. I love that aspect of her character. Martin could have easily written her as the perfect mother, who accepted her husband's bastard into her home with open arms, but he didn't, he decided to make her flawed and resentful, which makes her a much more complex and interesting character in my eyes. It makes me love her even more. I agree. The best evidence we have for this is the way Jon's siblings love him. If Cat were cruel and vindictive, she would have raised them apart from Jon, so that they would not have been friends. She would have taught them to hate Jon, to be jealous of him or to ignore him. It seems like Sansa was a bit of a butt to him, but she was like that to Arya too. We know the other siblings loved him. Jon/Arya's relationship could have actually given her reasons to disapprove, given that he encouraged her unladylike pursuits, but there's no sign she ever tried to curtail their involvement. In Arya's scenes with Jon, they talk about Sansa and Septa Mordane but not Catelyn's feelings towards Jon or thinking him a bad influence. I don't doubt that Sansa's understanding of Jon's bastardy came from Catelyn but I think her insistence on calling him half-brother had more to do with Sansa's own efforts to be prim and proper rather than Catelyn teaching her to be a little snot, which assumes she tried that with all her kids and only succeeded with Sansa because Robb, Arya, and Bran were just inherently better than Sansa. Which doesn't make sense because Robb and Bran were both quite close to their mother, and Arya always defended her and clearly did care about her approval. |
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 26, 2016 13:36:26 GMT
I agree. The best evidence we have for this is the way Jon's siblings love him. If Cat were cruel and vindictive, she would have raised them apart from Jon, so that they would not have been friends. She would have taught them to hate Jon, to be jealous of him or to ignore him. It seems like Sansa was a bit of a butt to him, but she was like that to Arya too. We know the other siblings loved him. Jon/Arya's relationship could have actually given her reasons to disapprove, given that he encouraged her unladylike pursuits, but there's no sign she ever tried to curtail their involvement. In Arya's scenes with Jon, they talk about Sansa and Septa Mordane but not Catelyn's feelings towards Jon or thinking him a bad influence. I don't doubt that Sansa's understanding of Jon's bastardy came from Catelyn but I think her insistence on calling him half-brother had more to do with Sansa's own efforts to be prim and proper rather than Catelyn teaching her to be a little snot, which assumes she tried that with all her kids and only succeeded with Sansa because Robb, Arya, and Bran were just inherently better than Sansa. Which doesn't make sense because Robb and Bran were both quite close to their mother, and Arya always defended her and clearly did care about her approval. And in the books Catelyn feared that Jon would try to usurp her children's birthright. It troubled her that he looked more like a Stark then her own sons, who favored the Tully side of the family. And when in the book, when Robb was advocating for Jon as heir-Catelyn and the Blackfish tried to talk him out of it. I think partly for Catelyn out of fear (even though they believed Bran and Rickon to be dead, they presumed Arya dead and Sansa was married to Tyrion) but also being pragmatic. Would the North accept Jon in this role should something happen to Robb? Would it be better to have a distant Stark cousin take over? Robb thought a son, bastard or not, of Ned would be more suitable. I think Catelyn gets too much blame for how she treated Jon. I think if she knew the truth (and obviously Ned was terrified for Jon's safety to even reveal it to his wife), she might have been warmer to Jon. But she's not perfect but to her credit, she did not discourage her children from treating Jon like a brother, she did not talk Ned out of him training, learning side by side with the Stark kids. She might have not treated him like how she treated her trueborn children. The scene in the show where Catelyn confides to Talisa about Jon's illness, her care for him and her prayers to the Gods to spare his life because she could not have Ned hurting for a deceased child...and her promise that she would love him as her own and ask that he be legitimized if he were made well. Well people complained about that scene but I liked it. Because it showed you Catelyn's mindset, her inability to get past the hurt of Ned cheating on her, not honoring her vows to the Gods about Jon showed that she felt the misfortune befalling her family was due to her not honoring the vows she made to the Gods. To me, it showed she was only human. It was a heartwrenching scene. |
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 27, 2016 1:56:17 GMT
I loved that added scene with Catelyn, I don't know how anyone couldn't. I just re-watched Cat's speech in Criples, Bastards and Broken things. Such a great moment, but it makes me sad when she gets to the Frey soldier knowing her fate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 12:37:16 GMT
I loved that added scene with Catelyn, I don't know how anyone couldn't. I just re-watched Cat's speech in Criples, Bastards and Broken things. Such a great moment, but it makes me sad when she gets to the Frey soldier knowing her fate. I think sometimes they make truly brilliant additions, and this was one of those times. It confirmed what I believed about her character, that she was good and loving and that she tried to put the jealousy aside, but she just couldn't. And why? Because Ned's loyalty to her was more important than anything, really. He was her family, her husband, her lord, and she treated him as such. If she embraced Jon, she had to embrace Ned's betrayal, and she couldn't bring herself to do it. It was her one big flaw, and it's totally understandable. |
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Post by kingeomer on Jul 27, 2016 12:49:31 GMT
I loved that added scene with Catelyn, I don't know how anyone couldn't. I just re-watched Cat's speech in Criples, Bastards and Broken things. Such a great moment, but it makes me sad when she gets to the Frey soldier knowing her fate. I think sometimes they make truly brilliant additions, and this was one of those times. It confirmed what I believed about her character, that she was good and loving and that she tried to put the jealousy aside, but she just couldn't. And why? Because Ned's loyalty to her was more important than anything, really. He was her family, her husband, her lord, and she treated him as such. If she embraced Jon, she had to embrace Ned's betrayal, and she couldn't bring herself to do it. It was her one big flaw, and it's totally understandable. Exactly, I never understood the criticism of that scene during season 3. I thought it was wonderfully acted and true to Catelyn's mindset. She tried, she really did and she just could not get past it. It made her human, as we all have flaws and are not perfect. |
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 27, 2016 14:55:21 GMT
I think sometimes they make truly brilliant additions, and this was one of those times. It confirmed what I believed about her character, that she was good and loving and that she tried to put the jealousy aside, but she just couldn't. And why? Because Ned's loyalty to her was more important than anything, really. He was her family, her husband, her lord, and she treated him as such. If she embraced Jon, she had to embrace Ned's betrayal, and she couldn't bring herself to do it. It was her one big flaw, and it's totally understandable. Exactly, I never understood the criticism of that scene during season 3. I thought it was wonderfully acted and true to Catelyn's mindset. She tried, she really did and she just could not get past it. It made her human, as we all have flaws and are not perfect. I always assumed it was just typical ranter/raver BS. "eerrrmahgawd that's not in teh boooooks!" |
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Post by MarcusAntonius on Jul 27, 2016 15:30:02 GMT
For me I think it was a bit apologetic towards the way Catelyn treated Jon when I don't think there is anything wrong with not loving a bastard who is a constant reminder of your husbands infidelity and a direct threat to your children's inheritance.
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Post by Basil on Jul 27, 2016 15:33:18 GMT
Exactly, I never understood the criticism of that scene during season 3. I thought it was wonderfully acted and true to Catelyn's mindset. She tried, she really did and she just could not get past it. It made her human, as we all have flaws and are not perfect. I always assumed it was just typical ranter/raver BS. "eerrrmahgawd that's not in teh boooooks!" No, I don't think it's that. Okay, I'm gonna be real here, I think that scene ... kind of ... messes with Catelyn's characterisation a little bit. I think they mainly included it because they wanted to redeem Catelyn, so that the general audience would feel bad for her when she died at the Red Wedding, and not because it actually fits her character to feel that way about Jon Snow, or to carry with her that amount of guilt. Her hatred (or whatever you wanna call it) of Jon has always been the one thing that generally people have problems with, so they included a scene like this to make her sympathetic. And I do love that scene, don't get me wrong, in fact it's one of my favourites, just because it is so incredibly emotional and heart wrenching. Beautifully acted too, it finally gave Michelle Fairley something to work with. But it doesn't really fit my idea of Catelyn ... I guess, it's kinda hard to explain.  Mainly, I don't think Cat felt that bad about her treatment of Jon. She had moments of doubts in the books, sure, she thought of Jon and she knew that her behavior towards him was wrong. But she never blamed herself to such an extent, and if she did, she blamed her actual mistakes, she didn't blame karma. I kind of like the fact that Catelyn remains stubborn and resentful, even after all that has happened. That, even though she knows, deep down, that she's wrong, she can't let go of it and probably never will. When Robb wanted to declare Jon his heir, Catelyn was against it. This scene, while beautiful and sad, takes away from that a lot, it takes away from her complexity, in my opinion. It's like they're saying to the people who hate her, look guys, she's not an evil bitch, she was good all along. But the truth lies somewhere in between, I think. Again, I love it and I'm grateful they included it, but I understand why some people have problems with it, I would lie if I said that I didn't have problems with it to an extent as well. |
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