What do you think of Stannis?

Here's my dealio:

If Book!Stannis ever burns Shireen it is because he is pushed to the absolute brink and feels like it is the only option to save everyone in the Seven Kingdoms from the Others.

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." -Stannis, ASOS.

It would also probably align with Mel claiming that Shireen is "Nissa Nissa," after two attempts at victory have failed. Thus, he goes through with it from a very Machiavellian standpoint that it must be done.

It's horrible, but like anything with Stannis, I'm pretty sure if Book!Stannis goes through with this you'll be able to logically understand he's doing it because he has reason to believe blood sacrifice always works and it will save millions of lives for one.

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Show!Stannis is portrayed as a man who wants the Iron Throne because of his own ambition and not being "a page in someone else's history book." (It also should be pointed out Book Stannis probably doesn't believe there will even be history books written by humanity in the future unless he is king.) He vaguely mentions the White Walkers when speaking with Samwell in S5, but doesn't seem overly concerned with that being his reason for taking the Iron Throne. He never points off the Wall and talks about the "enemy he was born to fight." He talks about Roose Bolton. He then believes Mel and the power of king's blood even when there are a glaring faults in her beliefs:

1. You have the Balon leech which didn't work.
2. Mel claimed that she could prevent Tyrion's sneak attack at the Blackwater had she been there. Yet... Ramsay just snuck into Stannis' camp and burned all their food, siege weapons, and many horses.

She wasn't able to do shit.

The man who held Storm's End during the War into pure starvation doesn't really push his army to the brink through the snow and into starvation before succumbing to this decision - they're simply "stuck" because they can't march. When also justifying his reasoning to Shireen right before the pyre, he vaguely mentions he's doing it because he must (paraphrasing) "become the man he was meant to be."

I don't know what exactly Stannis is thinking because he is unnecessarily vague and doesn't tell us. We need more about the prophecy.

I don't really like prophecy in media because it's generally handled poorly. Most of the time, whether or not it exists just seems to make a character have to deal with a trope of celebrity status. Whether the prophecy exists or not, the same plot can play out. Here, when it actually matters to the story of making a character believe something and making a decision, it's just rather glossed over and we don't really go into it in the show. There's no mention of Nissa Nissa, or of "Azor Ahai" and how he "fits" the prophecy - just some vague reasoning that Stannis is blindly believing Mel that he is "The Lord's Chosen." We don't really understand Stannis' decision because what he's thinking and his internal struggle is turned into another rapid turn in a character that has existed way too often in this TV series without explaining adequately why.

People who generally still support Stannis are influenced by the books and justify Stannis' reasons based upon stuffed we're not told or are kind of inferred from the material. But it's horribly written and executed that Stannis is mostly doing all of this for his own personal goals and just kind of giving in to Mel.

And then you run into the factor of placement.

Now there is no one to root for in the Battle of Winterfell. There are plenty of stories that have a character take a dark turn and become the villain, but we still root for them while they're good and maybe even at the end if they're trying to make whatever amends possible for their actions. Placing this event for Stannis now ruins the climax of Winterfell because you're emotionally deinvested from seeing either side win. We already kind of had this with Blackwater where we didn't root for Stannis or Joffrey. BUT, we still cared because we wanted to see Tyrion, Davos, and Sansa be okay - and the inhabitants of the city not raped - so you kind of sided with the Lannisters.

Now in Winterfell, there's no one to root for in the clash between the rapist Father and the rapist, torturing son going up against the father who burned his daughter alive for his own ambition along with a fanatical heretic. We're just kind of rooting for Brienne and Pod to get Sansa out of there.

TL;DR: I am disappoint.

As I mentioned, they are clearly pushing the religion card -- the religious fanatic. He doesn't need logical reasoning to do something when it is the will of the "Lord of Light" for him to do so and in turn claim his destiny. The whole scene was a commentary on religion and how far one would go for their God. As someone who has spent tons of time with modern Christians, I constantly here "1. God. 2. Family", and this whole scene questioned that entire line of thinking.

I disagree that the show has to continuously repeat themes to explain character motivations. We know that Stannis knows how high the stakes are, they've all ready discussed it in the show, and they've not shown anything to imply he's changed his mind. In fact, the events of Hardhome should reinforce the White Walker threat for the audience. Stannis continuously talking about the White Walkers would not make the Shireen scene any easier to digest, the show doesn't have time to repeat sentiments, do you guys forget how annoying it was to read 'words are wind' over and over, and over again?

People are saying that more should have been done to convey their dire situation. I rewatched the scene and it was all sufficiently explained. They didn't have enough food to get back to Castle Black, and they couldn't press forward because of the snow. It was either take drastic measures, or starve to death. People are discrediting the writing because they love Stannis as a character, but believe me that no situation would have made the scene easier to watch, or shown Stannis in a better light. A few more weeks of suffering, White Walker obstacle instead of Boltons, it doesn't matter, Stannis burned his daughter and I'm a bit disturbed to see some of the rationalizations being thrown around by Stannis fans this week.

But I understand them, it's been a very tough week to be a Stannis fan. I know, he's one of my favorite characters, and I've been thinking about the scene non stop. Last night I rewatched the episode, it was nice to see Daznak's pit, because on Sunday night I was drinking so heavily I barely remember the Drogon moments. Anyway, the acting across the board was phenomenal, I don't know how Stephen does it, but his face is absolutely miserable during the burning, he looks like he aged 10 years in one scene. It was very well directed and heartbreaking to see Shireen's eagerness to help her father and sudden realization of what is about to happen. I never thought I'd say this but I felt awful for Selyse and it was devastating to see her fight through the soldiers to help her baby. Even the nameless soldiers looked disgusted and we know that none of this would have been possible if Stannis didn't send Davos on a beer run.

Has my opinion of Stannis changed? Well, yes and no. I think I'm surprised to say that I don't like him any less. I've thought about it, and I think that would hypocritical. It's a topic I've thought about a lot this week, in regards to the show pushing boundaries and audience reaction. This is not the first person Stannis has burned to death in the show or the books. Why do I hate Stannis for burning Shireen but not Axel Florent, who was also his family member? If anything, it almost makes Stannis more devoted in his cause to sacrifice his own child, it's no sacrifice if he doesn't care for the person. It also reminds me of the outrage of Sansa replacing Jeyne Poole, why are we so offended at Sansa being raped but not bothered as much by Jeyne experiencing even more brutal treatment?

As viewers/readers we have a type of selfish expectation that we will figure out which characters we like early on, and can continue enjoying their chapters. But that's an expectation that this series subverts so expertly. I mean, part of what drew me to Stannis in the first place was this contradiction of a man seeming righteous, but also doing these terrible things, by today's standards. I mean he chopped of the fingers of his most loyal advisor, and Edric Storm criticized Stannis for that, but it only made Davos respect him more. Stannis doesn't pick favorites and act hypocritically, he has a code and he sticks by it. That's what I love about these characters, they're not black and white, they are very grey, and this week we just had the grey motherload dropped on our squishy little heads. I remember a lot of disappointment in the show moving Tyrion more on the white side, and cutting the scene where he had the singer murdered. I for one was disappointed that he was so kind to the whores in season 5, as much as I hated self-pitying Tyrion from book 5, it made sense that he'd be a shell of a man after committing patricide, and whitewashing a character rarely makes them more interesting.

So why are we so upset about Shireen's death? Why did so many people hate Sansa's rape? Because of our investment in those characters. In the very first episode a little boy gets pushed out of the window, were viewers ranting and raving about it on social media? No, if anything it only sucked us in more, because we were impressed at what the show was willing to do in the name of storytelling. But now we have followed these characters for a few years and struggle when bad things happen to them. In fact, I suspect the fallout over Shireen-gate has less to do with Shireen and more to do with the selfishness of us not wanting Stannis to appear less likable. It's perfectly understandable, but interesting that we return week after week to a show that brutalizes characters on a regular basis, and yet we still have a line that we feel can be crossed.



So I'm left wondering about Stannis, a character I've been so invested in for years now. Many of us find characters like Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton compelling, but we don't really 'like' them so we can compartmentalize their actions and just dismiss them as villains. We can love to hate them, but this Stannis thing is different. I'm not sure the show has ever challenged me so dramatically in my views of liking a character but hating their actions. I hate what happened, but I still find the character compelling, I'm dying to find out how he acts after killing his only child. Will he still have the will to fight on or will he eventually give in to self-loathing? I don't really have any easy answers on how we should view Stannis or this plot development, but I am impressed that the show has provoked me and left me feeling so conflicted. That is why I enjoy ASOIAF, after all. So I haven't come to any major conclusions, and I know I'm forgetting some points I wanted to make, but those are my thoughts so far. I hope my fellow Stannis fans can try to look at this from all perspectives and don't give up on the Mannis entirely. Until then, join me in my existential crisis:

Honestly? I think of him as I thought before...

He's an ambitious man who has been blinded by swallowing Melisandre's snake oil, and it has caused him to commit atrocity after atrocity in the name of destiny.  I've said that before, and what he did hasn't changed that.

His book character and show character really aren't that different, imo.

I don't want him to die soon. I want him to live long enough to realize what he's done and see everything he's built crumble around him, because he's a very deep and compelling character who can really show us what it's like for a man to fall from grace and fall hard.

I'd also like to say that upon a second viewing I loved the transition from the Burning to The Pit. The way the screams faded into applause and cheering was actually kind of brilliant because it put us into the mindset of Dany watching the games. Without that scene we would have all been numb to the violence of the fights because we're just so excited about Drogon. But the Shireen scene made our hearts sink and left us feeling sick, exactly how Dany felt watching the gladiators fight to the death. I've seen lots of people saying they couldn't even enjoy Daznak because of the scene preceding it, and that was the point. It was a really effective transition.

He is ambitious, yes....but that doesn't mean he doesn't honestly believe that he's the one who is going to save the world from the White Walkers.  Melisandre has been telling him this for 4 seasons now.  So I absolutely believe it's relevant to his motivations.

I've just accepted that D&D have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Stannis. No idea.

The Stannis of the books is all about duty. Duty to the realm. Duty to his daughter. Those are quotes. There is no or in there. It is not religion vs realm vs family for Stannis. It is duty and rights. This is the man that became unreligious the day he watched his parents die around the same age Shireen is now.

It's not about ambition like D&D think. Wants? Needs? Ha! Stannis doesn't know what those are. Its about what is right. Stannis Baratheon burning his own daughter and HEIR is not right in any verse, book or show. Especially not for the reasons in the show. Show Mel can protect them from wildfire but not see in her fires that Ramsay is coming? They run out of food and Shireen will magically fill their stomachs and make them warmer and melt the snow to Winterfell where they will be victorious? No. Stannis should have laughed in her face and sent Shireen back with Davos.

Book Stannis would burn show Stannis for what he did. Show Stannis is no longer Stannis to me. I blame D&D for that. I won't forgive them.

Just my opinion.

It's not about duty. He looked into the fire and saw what is to come. He knows his daughter isn't alive anyway if he doesn't take the throne, unite the Seven Kingdoms and save the world. This is ENTIRELY in character for both show and book Stannis. 

Does he want to take Shireen his heir? Absolutely. But in the moment of deciding between everyone dying, and sacrificing his heir for the greater good, he does just that in his mind.

He's not being "evil" in the sense of the normal villain trope from all the movies ever. He's someone doing bad things for what he considers the right reasons to do good for the many. It's as grey as you can get, when so many people want to see black and white in their media.