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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 7:25:05 GMT
So this week we got to see Arya dressed up so cute as "Lana" (wish they'd kept Cat of the Canals though  ) and out to perform her first 'hit' on the crooked Insurance man. It was so well done and the scenery and costumes were awesome. Seeing Braavos through Arya's eyes is something I've waited a long time to see! What did you think of the things Jaqen told her back at the House of Black and White? Does it jive with the theme of the Faceless Men? Who paid to have the Insurance man offed or was it a prayer left at the temple? Are the Faceless men more 'vengeful' than we think they are? (Justice theme for Arya) ... The idea is that they take no sides and must be able to do their job without an agenda, but this scene as played out almost identical to the book. It reminds me that it seems almost like they DO in fact have a hidden agenda - to avenge the weak and wronged in a weird way. Jaqen's particular interest in Arya began when he repaid his debt to her by killing off her chosen targets - all of whom thoroughly deserved it. So the question stands to reason maybe there's more to it than just straightforward assassin work. What if someone bad pays them to kill someone innocent? Do you think they do the job with the same poker faced approach? Lastly, what's up with The Waif? I don't remember her being jealous or against Arya in the book - but my memory of her character is more fuzzy. She seemed pretty put out with Jaqen's response that it didn't matter if Arya was ready or not. What did you think? |
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Post by boojam on Jun 1, 2015 11:36:32 GMT
So this week we got to see Arya dressed up so cute as "Lana" (wish they'd kept Cat of the Canals though ) and out to perform her first 'hit' on the crooked Insurance man. It was so well done and the scenery and costumes were awesome. Seeing Braavos through Arya's eyes is something I've waited a long time to see! What did you think of the things Jaqen told her back at the House of Black and White? Does it jive with the theme of the Faceless Men? Who paid to have the Insurance man offed or was it a prayer left at the temple? Are the Faceless men more 'vengeful' than we think they are? (Justice theme for Arya) ... The idea is that they take no sides and must be able to do their job without an agenda, but this scene as played out almost identical to the book. It reminds me that it seems almost like they DO in fact have a hidden agenda - to avenge the weak and wronged in a weird way. Jaqen's particular interest in Arya began when he repaid his debt to her by killing off her chosen targets - all of whom thoroughly deserved it. So the question stands to reason maybe there's more to it than just straightforward assassin work. What if someone bad pays them to kill someone innocent? Do you think they do the job with the same poker faced approach? Lastly, what's up with The Waif? I don't remember her being jealous or against Arya in the book - but my memory of her character is more fuzzy. She seemed pretty put out with Jaqen's response that it didn't matter if Arya was ready or not. What did you think? Like in the books wasn't it the gypped sea captain who made the contract? I think it was. That was the way it was in the book. He was kneeling on the floor beside Arya and the Kindly Man (I guess he's not called Jaqen). One thing some time should have been wedged in to explain that the FM don't always go for the deep pockets contractor. In the books the insurance man hit was voted on by the Faceless Man 'council' , no time for them. Now the books imply that a FM hit can be bought for a high enough price, tho apparently the 'council' has to approve it. It's true The Waif (who nobody in the book ever calls the Waif, except GRRM) was a full up FM and was more friendly with Arya. I don't know what they are setting up her , our 'Jaqen' does not mention the ban on a personal vendetta. It's like a set up for trouble for Arya ... tho in the books she has not , so far, gotten into trouble for it. Jaqen's words , on the show, which are kind of nihilistic are not in the books. |
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Post by janicia on Jun 1, 2015 12:51:26 GMT
Hmm, I read the Waif's objection kind of as concern. She doesn't seem to like Arya much, but it seemed like she was kind of worried about her. But maybe it was just jealousy.
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 1, 2015 15:33:55 GMT
I think she'll she Meryn fooking Trant while she's trying to kill the insurance man and ditch it to go after him instead. Maybe she'll be blinded or sent to join the actors as punishment to end the season.
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2015 15:38:02 GMT
The conversation between the Waif and notJaqen fucked me up. Why would Jaqen give her a target if she is not ready? does he want her to fail her training? and I can't tell if the Waif was jealous or concerned.
I'm really confused about the FM right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 19:45:29 GMT
Like in the books wasn't it the gypped sea captain who made the contract? I think it was. That was the way it was in the book. He was kneeling on the floor beside Arya and the Kindly Man (I guess he's not called Jaqen). One thing some time should have been wedged in to explain that the FM don't always go for the deep pockets contractor. In the books the insurance man hit was voted on by the Faceless Man 'council' , no time for them. Now the books imply that a FM hit can be bought for a high enough price, tho apparently the 'council' has to approve it. It's true The Waif (who nobody in the book ever calls the Waif, except GRRM) was a full up FM and was more friendly with Arya. I don't know what they are setting up her , our 'Jaqen' does not mention the ban on a personal vendetta. It's like a set up for trouble for Arya ... tho in the books she has not , so far, gotten into trouble for it. Jaqen's words , on the show, which are kind of nihilistic are not in the books. Good catch on that - was it actually the same sea captain there in the temple when she and Jaqen talked? I will have to look closer. If it was, they have kept that very vague and I know most of the reviewers I watched were mostly confused by the scene and not sure who was getting screwed over or paying who in the scene. I agree there should have been a little more explanation from Jaqen or the Waif about who their targets are and how they are decided upon. With all the time/scenes spent in the House of Black and White, surely there could have been a moment to add a bit to their goals and objectives? I have to wonder if as Enid and lordcarson said - there's not some other agenda going on here ... some sort of test for Arya. Jaqen telling the waif that it doesn't matter if she's ready it's all the same to The Faceless God was some sort of clue but frustratingly vague! |
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Post by boojam on Jun 1, 2015 19:50:56 GMT
The conversation between the Waif and notJaqen fucked me up. Why would Jaqen give her a target if she is not ready? does he want her to fail her training? and I can't tell if the Waif was jealous or concerned. I'm really confused about the FM right now. In the books Arya is only given the assignment after quite a bit of FM 'boot camp'. Even then the FM 'Council' only grudgingly let her do the 'hit'. Even then Arya has to devise a method of giving the Gift. So it's even a bigger test. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2015 19:59:59 GMT
Yeah, but in the books they seemed to care about the hit being done right. Maybe is because we don't see how the FM really work, but notJaqen's comment about how the many-faced god doesn't doesn't really care worries me. Is he saying he doesn't care if Arya is caught and dies? or is he saying he doesn't really care if Arya is just pretending she wants to become no-one?
It just looked suspicious to me, because it gave the impression notJaqen agreed with the Waif about Arya not being ready, and yet he doesn't give a crap.
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Post by boojam on Jun 1, 2015 20:10:06 GMT
Like in the books wasn't it the gypped sea captain who made the contract? I think it was. That was the way it was in the book. He was kneeling on the floor beside Arya and the Kindly Man (I guess he's not called Jaqen). One thing some time should have been wedged in to explain that the FM don't always go for the deep pockets contractor. In the books the insurance man hit was voted on by the Faceless Man 'council' , no time for them. Now the books imply that a FM hit can be bought for a high enough price, tho apparently the 'council' has to approve it. It's true The Waif (who nobody in the book ever calls the Waif, except GRRM) was a full up FM and was more friendly with Arya. I don't know what they are setting up her , our 'Jaqen' does not mention the ban on a personal vendetta. It's like a set up for trouble for Arya ... tho in the books she has not , so far, gotten into trouble for it. Jaqen's words , on the show, which are kind of nihilistic are not in the books. Good catch on that - was it actually the same sea captain there in the temple when she and Jaqen talked? I will have to look closer. If it was, they have kept that very vague and I know most of the reviewers I watched were mostly confused by the scene and not sure who was getting screwed over or paying who in the scene. I agree there should have been a little more explanation from Jaqen or the Waif about who their targets are and how they are decided upon. With all the time/scenes spent in the House of Black and White, surely there could have been a moment to add a bit to their goals and objectives? I have to wonder if as Enid and lordcarson said - there's not some other agenda going on here ... some sort of test for Arya. Jaqen telling the waif that it doesn't matter if she's ready it's all the same to The Faceless God was some sort of clue but frustratingly vague! It's been noted for a long time now that the FM don't seem to actively recruit. How they get their member is not clear. In Arya's case she seems to have been deliberately shadowed. Enticed and recruited. Was it Syrio Forel , who may have been a Braavos spy in KL, but not necessarily a FM who noticed her , informed some mysterious 'someone' in Braavos , the Iron Bank? Then the FM put a tail on her , Jaqen. In the books the FM seem to be putting her though a knothole of training , even telling her she can leave if she wants. Arya turns out to be very clever and very determined, and GRRM makes it clear it's not easy to get the novitiate robes of a FM. They are having to go fast on the show. It's too bad 'cause they can't show show how the process is making Arya more dangerous than she already. Have always thought that if the Iron Bank wanted to target someone or some group at KL Arya would more than fit the bill! |
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Post by janicia on Jun 1, 2015 20:16:24 GMT
Yeah, but in the books they seemed to care about the hit being done right. Maybe is because we don't see how the FM really work, but notJaqen's comment about how the many-faced god doesn't doesn't really care worries me. Is he saying he doesn't care if Arya is caught and dies? or is he saying he doesn't really care if Arya is just pretending she wants to become no-one? It just looked suspicious to me, because it gave the impression notJaqen agreed with the Waif about Arya not being ready, and yet he doesn't give a crap. I agree that Jaqen doesn't care about Arya's life. I think he has a "sink or swim" approach to her training. I don't like the theory that Sirio was a FM and that the FM specifically targeted Arya for recruitment. I get why a female warg Stark could be a great asset to them, but it really downplays her own successes and suffering if she was being groomed and protected by an assassin cult the whole time. So I like this portrayal of the FM barely caring about Arya, and she really is making her own way in the world. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:33:12 GMT
boojam - I agree The House of Black and White seems to have singled Arya out for some reason we still do not understand other than they noticed her determination for revenge/justice and it was unusual in a young girl. But, as janicia pointed out, there's plenty of people don't agree with the Syrio was a FM in disguise theory. I don't know what I think about it. I'm willing to entertain the theory and keep it as a possibility on the side. Enid also makes good points that it did seem oddly out of sync that Jaqen 'doesn't care' if Arya's ready or not. But we should try to remember that he operates entirely on the premise of lies and subterfuge which are earmarks of a good assassin or rogue anyways. Training Arya to be as slippery as himself will take some "Sink or Swim" tactics like Janicia said. I do think he cares about Arya otherwise he would have never taken an interest in her in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 21:20:15 GMT
So this week we got to see Arya dressed up so cute as "Lana" (wish they'd kept Cat of the Canals though ) and out to perform her first 'hit' on the crooked Insurance man. It was so well done and the scenery and costumes were awesome. Seeing Braavos through Arya's eyes is something I've waited a long time to see! What did you think of the things Jaqen told her back at the House of Black and White? Does it jive with the theme of the Faceless Men? Who paid to have the Insurance man offed or was it a prayer left at the temple? Are the Faceless men more 'vengeful' than we think they are? (Justice theme for Arya) ... The idea is that they take no sides and must be able to do their job without an agenda, but this scene as played out almost identical to the book. It reminds me that it seems almost like they DO in fact have a hidden agenda - to avenge the weak and wronged in a weird way. Jaqen's particular interest in Arya began when he repaid his debt to her by killing off her chosen targets - all of whom thoroughly deserved it. So the question stands to reason maybe there's more to it than just straightforward assassin work. What if someone bad pays them to kill someone innocent? Do you think they do the job with the same poker faced approach? Lastly, what's up with The Waif? I don't remember her being jealous or against Arya in the book - but my memory of her character is more fuzzy. She seemed pretty put out with Jaqen's response that it didn't matter if Arya was ready or not. What did you think? Thanks for the thread - I'm right with you. I loved that Arya got out in the sunshine, that she looked so cute, and seemed so happy. When Jaqen was talking to Arya, there was a figure hunched over at the rear right of the shot. Just from the posture and general demeanor, I thought that person looked like they were in emotional pain/sadness, just as had the father who brought in his daughter for whom he'd done everything he could. I don't know whether or not he had anything to do with the insurance man or not, but maybe a child or a wife had died as a result of his being swindled and unable to feed them? Even though J said he didn't know what 'a girl' would see, I wonder if he knew the insurance man's ploys himself but couldn't say whether A would pick up on it or not until she got there. I can't remember exactly what the books said about the FM, but I thought there was definitely a mercy basis for their origin, beginning with slaves (?) who had no hope of anything but a life of misery or mutilation and asked for a way out, so that the FM killing was like a mercy killing. I'm not sure. But I don't think they're 'hit men'. I don't think they'd accept an 'assignment' unless there were a grave injustice involved, people being seriously killed or dying because of someone else, or people seeking a true mercy killing for themselves or a loved one. (And maybe this is what there is a 'council' to rule on.) J had told A in Westeros that 3 lives were given, so three lives must be taken, and that's why he did the killings for her. Honestly, the more I write, the less sure I am about it all. This is just what my sense of it is. About the waif, I definitely think she's jealous of A and that she will spell trouble for A sooner rather than later. Fascinating scenario, the Arya storyline is one of my favorites. ETA: I can't see Jaqen (maybe unJaqen is more like it, after all) being sent specifically to recruit Arya. He was in the Black Cells when Yoren went to beg NW from Ned. I never have understood how/why Jaqen was in the black cells when he had this 'special skill set'. And he'd said to Arya when he first came across her, "A man cannot help choose his companions." Probably naive, but I do think he cares about Arya and that if he's not Jaqen he at least knows all about her, perhaps is given Jaqen's face so that Arya can relate to him better, make it more effective. After all, she did save his life by throwing him the ax during the fire. Also, in the books, when Arya was taken into the room of faces, wasn't she given one, either then or soon after? But on the show, when she saw the towers of faces, Jaqen said something about she might not be ready for a 'face' but that didn't mean she wasn't ready for something else? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 21:38:15 GMT
Thanks for the thread - I'm right with you. I loved that Arya got out in the sunshine, that she looked so cute, and seemed so happy. When Jaqen was talking to Arya, there was a figure hunched over at the rear right of the shot. Just from the posture and general demeanor, I thought that person looked like they were in emotional pain/sadness, just as had the father who brought in his daughter for whom he'd done everything he could. I don't know whether or not he had anything to do with the insurance man or not, but maybe a child or a wife had died as a result of his being swindled and unable to feed them? Even though J said he didn't know what 'a girl' would see, I wonder if he knew the insurance man's ploys himself but couldn't say whether A would pick up on it or not until she got there. I can't remember exactly what the books said about the FM, but I thought there was definitely a mercy basis for their origin, beginning with slaves (?) who had no hope of anything but a life of misery or mutilation and asked for a way out, so that the FM killing was like a mercy killing. I'm not sure. But I don't think they're 'hit men'. I don't think they'd accept an 'assignment' unless there were a grave injustice involved, people being seriously killed or dying because of someone else, or people seeking a true mercy killing for themselves or a loved one. J had told A in Westeros that 3 lives were given, so three lives must be taken, and that's why he did the killings for her. Honestly, the more I write, the less sure I am about it all. This is just what my sense of it is.
About the waif, I definitely think she's jealous of A and that she will spell trouble for A sooner rather than later. Fascinating scenario, the Arya storyline is one of my favorites. You nailed it! I've been waiting to see if anyone would come up with this counter argument. It seems a large portion of fans think the Faceless Men are simply cold-hearted killers who do what they're paid to do and must be able to do so without bias. I think that's a ruse actually. "It's all the same to the God of Death" is a double entendre in some ways - and can be interpreted literally or not. Death is permanent and equal for all in the eyes of the Gods - that's true enough. But to men death has implications and consequences. Death is not so simple as a drink from a cup or a coin or a phrase everyone knows. Death is complicated and the gift of mercy is given for many different reasons but not because they're 'paid' to do so. |
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2015 21:40:56 GMT
Pretty sure the man who was at THOBAW while notJaqen gave Arya the assignment was the ship captain the insurance man refused to pay   Of course, if the FM weren't so cheap with the candle budget, everything would be easier |
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Post by Enid on Jun 1, 2015 21:49:13 GMT
I think the FM are both assassins for hire and a cult that helps deal with injustice. The thing is, they always make it look like an accident or a natural death, so it's very hard to know when they have been employed. IIRC the books suggest that Euron used a FM to kill Balon, and Jaqen killed Pat to infiltrate the Citadel. so I don't think they only help people who need them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 21:57:38 GMT
I think the FM are both assassins for hire and a cult that helps deal with injustice. The thing is, they always make it look like an accident or a natural death, so it's very hard to know when they have been employed. IIRC the books suggest that Euron used a FM to kill Balon, and Jaqen killed Pat to infiltrate the Citadel. so I don't think they only help people who need them. There are likely situations where they do work for reasons more closely aligned to why Varys does what he does is my thought on that. Political goals are never easy to sort out and I have a feeling the Faceless Men have to have a certain motivation to take on a 'contract' of the sort you mentioned (if that's how Balon was offed). I don't think they just take contracts from the highest bidder either - that would be far too simple and make them much less mysterious. PS: Thank you for the great photo comparisons - much easier to see than trying to re-watch the scenes individually. Definitely looks like the same guy to me!  |
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 1, 2015 21:58:02 GMT
It would be very strange to me if Arya didn't actually end up killing the insurance man given how much they set up the shot of her spreading the vinegar on the oysters. Why bother doing all that if she wasn't going to have a corresponding scene where she sprinkles the poison instead?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 22:02:20 GMT
Thanks for the thread - I'm right with you. I loved that Arya got out in the sunshine, that she looked so cute, and seemed so happy. When Jaqen was talking to Arya, there was a figure hunched over at the rear right of the shot. Just from the posture and general demeanor, I thought that person looked like they were in emotional pain/sadness, just as had the father who brought in his daughter for whom he'd done everything he could. I don't know whether or not he had anything to do with the insurance man or not, but maybe a child or a wife had died as a result of his being swindled and unable to feed them? Even though J said he didn't know what 'a girl' would see, I wonder if he knew the insurance man's ploys himself but couldn't say whether A would pick up on it or not until she got there. I can't remember exactly what the books said about the FM, but I thought there was definitely a mercy basis for their origin, beginning with slaves (?) who had no hope of anything but a life of misery or mutilation and asked for a way out, so that the FM killing was like a mercy killing. I'm not sure. But I don't think they're 'hit men'. I don't think they'd accept an 'assignment' unless there were a grave injustice involved, people being seriously killed or dying because of someone else, or people seeking a true mercy killing for themselves or a loved one. J had told A in Westeros that 3 lives were given, so three lives must be taken, and that's why he did the killings for her. Honestly, the more I write, the less sure I am about it all. This is just what my sense of it is.
About the waif, I definitely think she's jealous of A and that she will spell trouble for A sooner rather than later. Fascinating scenario, the Arya storyline is one of my favorites. You nailed it! I've been waiting to see if anyone would come up with this counter argument. It seems a large portion of fans think the Faceless Men are simply cold-hearted killers who do what they're paid to do and must be able to do so without bias. I think that's a ruse actually. "It's all the same to the God of Death" is a double entendre in some ways - and can be interpreted literally or not. Death is permanent and equal for all in the eyes of the Gods - that's true enough. But to men death has implications and consequences. Death is not so simple as a drink from a cup or a coin or a phrase everyone knows. Death is complicated and the gift of mercy is given for many different reasons but not because they're 'paid' to do so. I just went back and edited to add some stuff at the bottom, also added further up that maybe deciding whether or not a killing was merciful, or for true justice, or whatever, is what the 'council' decides on. Another thing I ETA was that in the room with the towers of faces, didn't Jaqen say something about she might not be ready for [faces], but that didn't mean she wasn't ready for something else? That's why I thought he said what he did to the Waif about it not mattering to the Many Faced God [i.e., whether she had a face or not, or fit a particular mold like others did.] I think the Waif thinks J is more lenient with A, showing favoritism. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 22:06:39 GMT
It would be very strange to me if Arya didn't actually end up killing the insurance man given how much they set up the shot of her spreading the vinegar on the oysters. Why bother doing all that if she wasn't going to have a corresponding scene where she sprinkles the poison instead? I read some of that in the speculation thread. Interesting that some people think she's going to abandon her mission and go after Trant instead. I think they've clearly laid it out that she's going to do the deed with the poisoned oysters. The promos are famous for throwing people off. She has a momentary flash of concern or some other emotion in one of those quick shots and people are assuming that means she's going to end up doing something else. We'll see, but I predict she'll kill the target as planned and then see Trant at or around the same time and go after him without authorization from her boss.  |
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Post by King Tommen on Jun 1, 2015 22:10:27 GMT
It would be very strange to me if Arya didn't actually end up killing the insurance man given how much they set up the shot of her spreading the vinegar on the oysters. Why bother doing all that if she wasn't going to have a corresponding scene where she sprinkles the poison instead? I read some of that in the speculation thread. Interesting that some people think she's going to abandon her mission and go after Trant instead. I think they've clearly laid it out that she's going to do the deed with the poisoned oysters. The promos are famous for throwing people off. She has a momentary flash of concern or some other emotion in one of those quick shots and people are assuming that means she's going to end up doing something else. We'll see, but I predict she'll kill the target as planned and then see Trant at or around the same time and go after him without authorization from her boss. I guess the people who saw the supposed flash of concern missed the huge grin on her face that she had as she walked away once she knew Jaqen couldn't see her anymore. She's looking forward to her first assignment. |
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) and out to perform her first 'hit' on the crooked Insurance man. It was so well done and the scenery and costumes were awesome. Seeing Braavos through Arya's eyes is something I've waited a long time to see!
