Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:29:26 GMT
I think people have more of a reaction since Sansa is on the good side, and Ramsay is an established villain. Yet when Danaerys was raped by Khal Drogo on their wedding night, we had not met either of them properly, and Khal Drogo redeemed his character later in the series, somehow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:31:11 GMT
This so much. Best adaptation does NOT equal best quality. I'm shocked when people say Season 1 is the best. Is that a hard and fast rule? Because when the source material is something as good as ASoIaF, I think it's best to stick to it. Especially when you're responsible for writing shit like Wolverine Origins and Troy. I hate to be that guy that says, "What about the 25th Hour Benioff wrote that too..." but I'll do it anyways.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:32:10 GMT
I think people have more of a reaction since Sansa is on the good side, and Ramsay is an established villain. Yet when Danaerys was raped by Khal Drogo on their wedding night, we had not met either of them properly, and Khal Drogo redeemed his character later in the series, somehow.Not for me he didn't. Never liked him. Never will. Not in the books. Not in the show. You could say I'm a MMD apologist of sorts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:43:33 GMT
I think people have more of a reaction since Sansa is on the good side, and Ramsay is an established villain. Yet when Danaerys was raped by Khal Drogo on their wedding night, we had not met either of them properly, and Khal Drogo redeemed his character later in the series, somehow.Not for me he didn't. Never liked him. Never will. Not in the books. Not in the show. You could say I'm a MMD apologist of sorts. I actually wanna know just why people claim he was redeemed. Because he got her pregnant, and believed the kid would be the stallion who mounts the world? Because he raped and murdered lamb people to fund Danaerys' return to Westeros, where he would rape and murder every person in every castle, village and city he came across? Or is it because he intended to enslave his enemies, sell them at slavers bay and get rich enough to plunder Westeros? It was probably that time he ripped that one guys tongue out. Yeah, more than likely.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:44:29 GMT
I think people have more of a reaction since Sansa is on the good side, and Ramsay is an established villain. Yet when Danaerys was raped by Khal Drogo on their wedding night, we had not met either of them properly, and Khal Drogo redeemed his character later in the series, somehow. Well it's true, no one's seeing a 'happy ending' love story for Ramsay and Sansa here, whereas it became clear immediately the story for Drogo and Dany was meant to be a love story - about as much as we can hope for in Martin's twisted world! Ramsay has done some awful stuff and is definitely an arch-villain so it heightens the shock value of pairing him with Sansa, who we've been rooting for now for awhile and she's being show-cased a whole lot more now with this totally different plot line. I can see how these points factor in to the sensitivities. I keep chewing on this and have decided my number one upset, personally, is that I feel Sansa's suffered enough and really wanted her to finally pull ahead a little bit since like Sati's pointed out many times, we don't even get gratuitous Stoneheart revenge to satisfy even a little of our need to see someone else (Freys, etc) suffer in retaliation. I never expected (or wanted) a "Darth Sansa" BAMF story arc. I'm not unrealistic or into the superhero stories. I just wanted her to finally get into a position of advantage instead of always disadvantage and being manipulated. I knew the minute Littlefinger sat there at that table in King's Landing with Cersei and spilled his entire plan (to which he lied straight to Cersei's smug face about) that Sansa was doomed. It hurt. I've seen a lot of hate starting to roll out for Littlefinger so I'm happy people are finally 'getting it' about him. The whole "Uncle Littlefinger just wants to diddle Catelyn junior" crap was annoying. People really don't dig very deep for the true motivator in his whole game, do they? I guess the chaos is a ladder speech didn't make sense to some.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:50:31 GMT
I think people have more of a reaction since Sansa is on the good side, and Ramsay is an established villain. Yet when Danaerys was raped by Khal Drogo on their wedding night, we had not met either of them properly, and Khal Drogo redeemed his character later in the series, somehow. Well it's true, no one's seeing a 'happy ending' love story for Ramsay and Sansa here, whereas it became clear immediately the story for Drogo and Dany was meant to be a love story - about as much as we can hope for in Martin's twisted world! Ramsay has done some awful stuff and is definitely an arch-villain so it heightens the shock value of pairing him with Sansa, who we've been rooting for now for awhile and she's being show-cased a whole lot more now with this totally different plot line. I can see how these points factor in to the sensitivities. I keep chewing on this and have decided my number one upset, personally, is that I feel Sansa's suffered enough and really wanted her to finally pull ahead a little bit since like Sati's pointed out many times, we don't even get gratuitous Stoneheart revenge to satisfy even a little of our need to see someone else (Freys, etc) suffer in retaliation. I never expected (or wanted) a "Darth Sansa" BAMF story arc. I'm not unrealistic or into the superhero stories. I just wanted her to finally get into a position of advantage instead of always disadvantage and being manipulated. I knew the minute Littlefinger sat there at that table in King's Landing with Cersei and spilled his entire plan (to which he lied straight to Cersei's smug face about) that Sansa was doomed. It hurt. I've seen a lot of hate starting to roll out for Littlefinger so I'm happy people are finally 'getting it' about him. The whole "Uncle Littlefinger just wants to diddle Catelyn junior" crap was annoying. People really don't dig very deep for the true motivator in his whole game, do they? I guess the chaos is a ladder speech didn't make sense to some. I think some people needed to think the Starks had at least one ally in Littlefinger. To do that, theyd need to forget that hes the guy who lead Ned to the slaughter in the first place. Littlefinger is only interested in Littlefinger. Everyone says so. Varys in the show, Renly in the show, Tyrion in both, Stannis in the books. Its not a red herring, its a glaringly difinitive character trait. Whats there to miss?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 0:00:32 GMT
I knew the minute Littlefinger sat there at that table in King's Landing with Cersei and spilled his entire plan (to which he lied straight to Cersei's smug face about) that Sansa was doomed. It hurt. I've seen a lot of hate starting to roll out for Littlefinger so I'm happy people are finally 'getting it' about him. The whole "Uncle Littlefinger just wants to diddle Catelyn junior" crap was annoying. People really don't dig very deep for the true motivator in his whole game, do they? I guess the chaos is a ladder speech didn't make sense to some. I think some people needed to think the Starks had at least one ally in Littlefinger. To do that, theyd need to forget that hes the guy who lead Ned to the slaughter in the first place. Littlefinger is only interested in Littlefinger. Everyone says so. Varys in the show, Renly in the show, Tyrion in both, Stannis in the books. Its not a red herring, its a glaringly difinitive character trait. Whats there to miss? They don't miss it so much as mis-attribute it (sorry Stannis that was not proper grammar) in my view. I grew weary of the 'pedofinger' references because it lessened the brilliance of what Littlefinger really was/is in the game. I think some people just prefer to be juvenile and obsess about sexual stuff all the time rather than try to see the bigger picture. That was my point about that - and how it relates to Sansa. Yes everyone's pointed out Littlefinger's true motivations repeatedly, even Littlefinger himself but many fans don't seem to get that even when knocked over the head. I've seen tons of posts where they ask: "Why would LF take Sansa there and give her to that monster when he wants her for himself?!" uh... no. Missing the entire point. Littlefinger wants to be Warden of the North. Period.
|
|
|
Post by breakfest on May 21, 2015 0:05:25 GMT
Well it's true, no one's seeing a 'happy ending' love story for Ramsay and Sansa here, whereas it became clear immediately the story for Drogo and Dany was meant to be a love story - about as much as we can hope for in Martin's twisted world! Ramsay has done some awful stuff and is definitely an arch-villain so it heightens the shock value of pairing him with Sansa, who we've been rooting for now for awhile and she's being show-cased a whole lot more now with this totally different plot line. I can see how these points factor in to the sensitivities. I keep chewing on this and have decided my number one upset, personally, is that I feel Sansa's suffered enough and really wanted her to finally pull ahead a little bit since like Sati's pointed out many times, we don't even get gratuitous Stoneheart revenge to satisfy even a little of our need to see someone else (Freys, etc) suffer in retaliation. I never expected (or wanted) a "Darth Sansa" BAMF story arc. I'm not unrealistic or into the superhero stories. I just wanted her to finally get into a position of advantage instead of always disadvantage and being manipulated. I knew the minute Littlefinger sat there at that table in King's Landing with Cersei and spilled his entire plan (to which he lied straight to Cersei's smug face about) that Sansa was doomed. It hurt. I've seen a lot of hate starting to roll out for Littlefinger so I'm happy people are finally 'getting it' about him. The whole "Uncle Littlefinger just wants to diddle Catelyn junior" crap was annoying. People really don't dig very deep for the true motivator in his whole game, do they? I guess the chaos is a ladder speech didn't make sense to some. I think some people needed to think the Starks had at least one ally in Littlefinger. To do that, theyd need to forget that hes the guy who lead Ned to the slaughter in the first place. Littlefinger is only interested in Littlefinger. Everyone says so. Varys in the show, Renly in the show, Tyrion in both, Stannis in the books. Its not a red herring, its a glaringly difinitive character trait. Whats there to miss? Well the issue is, like most people and certainly like all characters in this story, he doesn't just want one thing. He's conflicted between his desire for ultimate power and his attachment to Sansa, this one living remnant of the only woman he ever truly loved. Now I, too, think his desire for personal gain will ultimately trump his other conflicting character traits, but it's always interesting to note these conflicts that drive the characters.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 0:15:27 GMT
Is that a hard and fast rule? Because when the source material is something as good as ASoIaF, I think it's best to stick to it. Especially when you're responsible for writing shit like Wolverine Origins and Troy. I hate to be that guy that says, "What about the 25th Hour Benioff wrote that too..." but I'll do it anyways. Haven't read it (saw the moview though, meh). The book better be absolutely fantastic to forgive Wolverine Origins though. Haven't read any of Weiss' books either actually.
|
|
sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
|
Post by sj4iy on May 21, 2015 0:16:36 GMT
Not for me he didn't. Never liked him. Never will. Not in the books. Not in the show. You could say I'm a MMD apologist of sorts. I actually wanna know just why people claim he was redeemed. Because he got her pregnant, and believed the kid would be the stallion who mounts the world? Because he raped and murdered lamb people to fund Danaerys' return to Westeros, where he would rape and murder every person in every castle, village and city he came across? Or is it because he intended to enslave his enemies, sell them at slavers bay and get rich enough to plunder Westeros? It was probably that time he ripped that one guys tongue out. Yeah, more than likely. He was hot. Ramsay's not. I think that's the real difference XD
|
|
|
Post by janicia on May 21, 2015 2:31:28 GMT
I actually wanna know just why people claim he was redeemed. Because he got her pregnant, and believed the kid would be the stallion who mounts the world? Because he raped and murdered lamb people to fund Danaerys' return to Westeros, where he would rape and murder every person in every castle, village and city he came across? Or is it because he intended to enslave his enemies, sell them at slavers bay and get rich enough to plunder Westeros? It was probably that time he ripped that one guys tongue out. Yeah, more than likely. He was hot. Ramsay's not. I think that's the real difference XD I remember some negative response to the Dothraki wedding as being over-the-top and racist. I would say that Drogo never seemed to think "how can I make Dany miserable today?" and he didn't get off on her pain. It was more that Drogo completely lacked empathy for Dany and was indifferent to her pain. But he wasn't intentionally cruel, so once Dany figured out the rules of her marriage she did ok. I imagine that Roose and Walda have much the same dynamic, actually, except without the cross-cultural confusions. Stannis and Selyse seem to be somewhere similar too - Stannis isn't exactly indifferent to Selyse's pain, but he is so stern and they're both so emotionally stunted that it ends up in similar territory. Viserys also did a lot of PR work for Drogo by being so evil that he made Drogo look reasonable.
|
|
|
Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 21, 2015 5:10:57 GMT
He was hot. Ramsay's not. I think that's the real difference XD I remember some negative response to the Dothraki wedding as being over-the-top and racist. I would say that Drogo never seemed to think "how can I make Dany miserable today?" and he didn't get off on her pain. It was more that Drogo completely lacked empathy for Dany and was indifferent to her pain. But he wasn't intentionally cruel, so once Dany figured out the rules of her marriage she did ok. I imagine that Roose and Walda have much the same dynamic, actually, except without the cross-cultural confusions. Stannis and Selyse seem to be somewhere similar too - Stannis isn't exactly indifferent to Selyse's pain, but he is so stern and they're both so emotionally stunted that it ends up in similar territory. Viserys also did a lot of PR work for Drogo by being so evil that he made Drogo look reasonable. Those are all interesting points. Besides, the show was just beginning by that time: today it is far more popular and has a way bigger audience
|
|
|
Post by kingeomer on May 21, 2015 11:14:38 GMT
He was hot. Ramsay's not. I think that's the real difference XD I remember some negative response to the Dothraki wedding as being over-the-top and racist. I would say that Drogo never seemed to think "how can I make Dany miserable today?" and he didn't get off on her pain. It was more that Drogo completely lacked empathy for Dany and was indifferent to her pain. But he wasn't intentionally cruel, so once Dany figured out the rules of her marriage she did ok. I imagine that Roose and Walda have much the same dynamic, actually, except without the cross-cultural confusions. Stannis and Selyse seem to be somewhere similar too - Stannis isn't exactly indifferent to Selyse's pain, but he is so stern and they're both so emotionally stunted that it ends up in similar territory. Viserys also did a lot of PR work for Drogo by being so evil that he made Drogo look reasonable. This. And once both of them settled into their marriage, Drogo respected her and demanded she be respected. I really do not think Drogo being more handsome than Ramsey had anything to do with how they are perceived. Ramsey is straight up sadistic and evil and is presented to be that way. Drogo was not.
|
|
sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
|
Post by sj4iy on May 21, 2015 11:42:09 GMT
I was jk about Drogo being hot. However, for all of Mary Sue's whining about this particular rape scene, this was a rather tasteless endorsement they made: www.themarysue.com/khal-drogo-panties/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 11:43:46 GMT
I was jk about Drogo being hot. However, for all of Mary Sue's whining about this particular rape scene, this was a rather tasteless endorsement they made: www.themarysue.com/khal-drogo-panties/Ffs are they serious?
|
|
sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
|
Post by sj4iy on May 21, 2015 12:16:33 GMT
I was jk about Drogo being hot. However, for all of Mary Sue's whining about this particular rape scene, this was a rather tasteless endorsement they made: www.themarysue.com/khal-drogo-panties/Ffs are they serious? Seems so. A bit hypocritical, really.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 13:57:38 GMT
I was jk about Drogo being hot. However, for all of Mary Sue's whining about this particular rape scene, this was a rather tasteless endorsement they made: www.themarysue.com/khal-drogo-panties/"Is that a rapist in your pants or are you just blind to the big picture" - themarysue
|
|
sj4iy
Grumpkin
"Et tu, Brute?"
Posts: 354
|
Post by sj4iy on May 21, 2015 14:00:42 GMT
I was jk about Drogo being hot. However, for all of Mary Sue's whining about this particular rape scene, this was a rather tasteless endorsement they made: www.themarysue.com/khal-drogo-panties/"Is that a rapist in your pants or are you just blind to the big picture" - themarysue More like: "Demeaning women is wrong! ...unless we are the ones doing it!" ~ themarysue
|
|
|
Post by kingeomer on May 21, 2015 17:10:33 GMT
Well I wrote my recap cinematiccorner.blogspot.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-5x06-unbowed-unbent.html and it was the first time where I had no idea what to really write because there is no way to judge the scene now. I usually write the rough draft of the recap before even seeing the episode, about the choices made by the writers and book content. So I had this whole speech prepared about how this is so wrong. But the scene turned out to be very well done so I eased up on them. Apparently, my post is one of the few favorable ones out there. The thing is that it's not the rape that is the thing people should be questioning, it's the very notion of Ramsay marrying Sansa. This is what leads to rape. Once there was a decision to have Sansa marry him, there is no way that this could have ended differently - unless, as I suggest in my recap, Theon would have chose that moment to save Sansa. So far the logistics behind this marriage make no sense. SO FAR. There can still be some big consequence, some pay off that will make the entire storyline well written and justified. But historically, it's not the strong suit of these writers. Consequence. Hell, there isn't even the consequence to RW yet! I hope there is a pay off, but the screams of outrage are premature. However I am glad they are happening because D&D use sexual violence waaaaaay too often in their show without any good reason in sight. I wanted to quote this because Sati touched on two points that I keep coming back to: 1. "The logistics behind the Sansa/Ramsey marriage make no sense...SO FAR." I dislike the Sansa (I almost called her Santa!) in Winterfell storyline because I cannot wrap my head around the logistics behind it to have it make sense so far. I get having a character that people know and care about rather than introducing a new one...but again having Sansa marry the son of the man who betrayed and killed her brother/mother, currently lives in her childhood home and is hated by the North makes no sense to me. I am glad that show had Cersei remind Littlefinger and the viewers that she wants Sansa dead, I thought they'd forget that. But maybe by episode 10 when I understand what they are trying to accomplish with this, I might feel differently about the storyline. 2. The outrage over this is happening because sexual violence is used way too often on the show without good reason in sight. I think the outrage is culmination of events that have happened over the years on the show. Sansa being raped was the tipping point. Critics of the outrage have every right to post where was the outcry when all of these violent (sexual or otherwise) events happened on the show? And they are correct to ask that question. And will these critics look hypocritical when they are not calling out other television shows for the use of sexual violence (whether or not it happens in the source material of the show, say like Outlander)? I acknowledge that we don't know how this is going to play out for Sansa. And they could handle the aftermath of this wonderfully, just because they really have not done so in the past, doesn't mean they can't now. I do think the people who thought Darth Sansa/Queen of the North/Uber Power Player from Out of Nowhere was something they conjured in their heads. I do think Sansa's story is realizing she's a pawn and that's all is she is and was to the Lannisters, Littlefinger and anyone else at this point in the story. Now does she buck the system by refusing to play and go her own way? Or does she play the game? I think that's the crossroads for the character.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 21, 2015 18:02:34 GMT
I'm hopeful because of determination and anger in Sansa's voice "my family still has friends in the North" from the promo. It looks like she is gonna start acting and I'm so hopeful her and Stannis meet. Kinda shipping it
|
|