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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 9:09:31 GMT
I'm not one to link to asoiaf.westeros.org/ normally, but I'm not really in the mood to copy/paste and fix all the formatting to make this readable so I'll just link to it and you can pull from it what you want: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129152-critics-reaction-to-s5e6/ - this guy carefully linked and highlighted critic reviews from a lot of big name media sources. There's actually some really good points in there. A lot of them. Like this one: "In general, I’m not a big fan of people getting raped in entertainment as a manipulative way of heightening the stakes, but I’m even less of a fan of people getting raped in entertainment when it accomplishes absolutely nothing." - Laura Hudson, Wired I must be a serious "show apologist" as some love to call it, I just didn't think it was that terrible. Maybe I should rethink things? I think the problem is we're in such a feminist sensitive state of mind as a society right now that this rape stuff really just hyper upsets everyone. It's just not really fair though - so much upset over rape when the ENTIRE show has been full of horrible awful stuff for FIVE YEARS. Why is it taking five years for mass media to finally start up a pitchfork riot? Why wasn't anyone so upset about Dany's wedding night? That was hella more graphic. Why weren't this many outraged about little kids killed, burnt and hung from ropes, or nailed on a crucifix, or women shot through with crossbow bolts, or pregnant women stabbed in their belly, or brothers and sisters having extremely graphic sex (repeatedly) or boys getting shoved out windows, or penises getting chopped off or .... I could go on and on but man ... I think someone else here said it best: "Let's be consistent with our outrage at least..."I'm NOT excusing their choice to have Sansa raped. Rape is really horrible especially when it's someone you should be able to trust who has accepted you as their lawful spouse. I didn't like it either. There's LOTS of things I didn't like them doing that didn't happen in the books and there's lots of things that happened in the books I didn't like and grossed me out. But I kept reading and watching and I've tried to remain balanced with my criticisms. I guess I just really don't understand it all. I have completely understood all the level-headed opinions on both side of it here, in this small forum. I have not disagreed (maybe some) with many at all so I guess I thought it wasn't going to be that bad out there. Well - it's bad out there. Westeros.org episode rating majority was a big fat 1. One. Curious if any of you have been slogging through the media and backlash and wondering if maybe you've underestimated your thoughts on the scene? I was just so relieved they didn't make it graphic, maybe I have missed the point? |
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Post by Admin on May 20, 2015 9:29:07 GMT
Well I wrote my recap cinematiccorner.blogspot.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-5x06-unbowed-unbent.html and it was the first time where I had no idea what to really write because there is no way to judge the scene now. I usually write the rough draft of the recap before even seeing the episode, about the choices made by the writers and book content. So I had this whole speech prepared about how this is so wrong. But the scene turned out to be very well done so I eased up on them. Apparently, my post is one of the few favorable ones out there. The thing is that it's not the rape that is the thing people should be questioning, it's the very notion of Ramsay marrying Sansa. This is what leads to rape. Once there was a decision to have Sansa marry him, there is no way that this could have ended differently - unless, as I suggest in my recap, Theon would have chose that moment to save Sansa. So far the logistics behind this marriage make no sense. SO FAR. There can still be some big consequence, some pay off that will make the entire storyline well written and justified. But historically, it's not the strong suit of these writers. Consequence. Hell, there isn't even the consequence to RW yet! I hope there is a pay off, but the screams of outrage are premature. However I am glad they are happening because D&D use sexual violence waaaaaay too often in their show without any good reason in sight. |
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Post by breakfest on May 20, 2015 9:42:03 GMT
The problem for me is that most of the justified criticism out there is based around the characterisation of Sansa - or rather the new, horrible situations she has been put into stifling her development (certainly the development she seemed to be making last season and early this season). This is understandable, but really it should be seperated from the scene itself in the context of this new journey she's been put in. In this storyline they are doing the scene and the act make total sense. I can understand criticism towards how they've handled the story but in regards to the scene itself I think a lot of the reaction has been impassioned and reactive. With time I don't think so many people will look back so negatively.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 9:42:25 GMT
Well said and I totally get it that the entire notion of Sansa going to Winterfell and being put in that scenario in the first place has a lot to do with the outrage.
But it seems like people are then attributing their anger at the wrong thing? Is the rape itself a convenient excuse or is it just rape itself they object to so strongly whereas other horrific events in the show have been less outrage-worthy?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 9:43:19 GMT
I'm not one to link to asoiaf.westeros.org/ normally, but I'm not really in the mood to copy/paste and fix all the formatting to make this readable so I'll just link to it and you can pull from it what you want: asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129152-critics-reaction-to-s5e6/ - this guy carefully linked and highlighted critic reviews from a lot of big name media sources. There's actually some really good points in there. A lot of them. Like this one: "In general, I’m not a big fan of people getting raped in entertainment as a manipulative way of heightening the stakes, but I’m even less of a fan of people getting raped in entertainment when it accomplishes absolutely nothing." - Laura Hudson, Wired I must be a serious "show apologist" as some love to call it, I just didn't think it was that terrible. Maybe I should rethink things? I think the problem is we're in such a feminist sensitive state of mind as a society right now that this rape stuff really just hyper upsets everyone. It's just not really fair though - so much upset over rape when the ENTIRE show has been full of horrible awful stuff for FIVE YEARS. Why is it taking five years for mass media to finally start up a pitchfork riot? Why wasn't anyone so upset about Dany's wedding night? That was hella more graphic. Why weren't this many outraged about little kids killed, burnt and hung from ropes, or nailed on a crucifix, or women shot through with crossbow bolts, or pregnant women stabbed in their belly, or brothers and sisters having extremely graphic sex (repeatedly) or boys getting shoved out windows, or penises getting chopped off or .... I could go on and on but man ... I think someone else here said it best: "Let's be consistent with our outrage at least..."I'm NOT excusing their choice to have Sansa raped. Rape is really horrible especially when it's someone you should be able to trust who has accepted you as their lawful spouse. I didn't like it either. There's LOTS of things I didn't like them doing that didn't happen in the books and there's lots of things that happened in the books I didn't like and grossed me out. But I kept reading and watching and I've tried to remain balanced with my criticisms. I guess I just really don't understand it all. I have completely understood all the level-headed opinions on both side of it here, in this small forum. I have not disagreed (maybe some) with many at all so I guess I thought it wasn't going to be that bad out there. Well - it's bad out there. Westeros.org episode rating majority was a big fat 1. One. Curious if any of you have been slogging through the media and backlash and wondering if maybe you've underestimated your thoughts on the scene? I was just so relieved they didn't make it graphic, maybe I have missed the point? Well, AFOIAF's reaction doesn't really need to be explained. It's a vote of protest giving the ep. a 1, not an actual critical evaluation. It's completely unfair but then, the Doom has fallen upon that site and the Stone Men are all that remain. Thankfully we escaped Valyrian slaves have ourselves a Braavos in this site.
As for the critics calling it "unnecessary", I don't quite get that since we don't know what the followup will be and it will likely prove a VERY important development in that storyline motivating both Sansa and Theon to take action in WF and not sit around waiting anymore. For those calling it "gratuitous", that makes even less sense since the scene was shot in a very tasteful way, with two reaction shots that conveyed the emotions of what was going on without treating us to anything too gruesome. The cynic in me would say that the critics just bandwagoning along with this harsh line about the episode along to appease the permanently-outraged blogger types of this world. IMHO this sort of PC prating and moralizing and seemingly compulsory lip service to every possible social issue the world over and constant fucking walking-on-eggshells attitude is really ruining TV and film criticism. And just about everything else that I know of... 
But then what the hell do I know.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 9:53:57 GMT
Well, AFOIAF's reaction doesn't really need to be explained. It's a vote of protest giving the ep. a 1, not an actual critical evaluation. It's completely unfair but then, the Doom has fallen upon that site and the Stone Men are all that remain. Thankfully we escaped Valyrian slaves have ourselves a Braavos in this site.
As for the critics calling it "unnecessary", I don't quite get that since we don't know what the followup will be and it will likely prove a VERY important development in that storyline motivating both Sansa and Theon to take action in WF and not sit around waiting anymore. For those calling it "gratuitous", that makes even less sense since the scene was shot in a very tasteful way, with two reaction shots that conveyed the emotions of what was going on without treating us to anything too gruesome. The cynic in me would say that the critics just bandwagoning along with this harsh line about the episode along to appease the permanently-outraged blogger types of this world. IMHO this sort of PC prating and moralizing and seemingly compulsory lip service to every possible social issue the world over and constant fucking walking-on-eggshells attitude is really ruining TV and film criticism. And just about everything else that I know of...
But then what the hell do I know.
Yes, thank goodness for that! I am so glad to be a refugee here! I think I try to understand why it was considered unnecessary without knowing the full impact of it in the episodes or seasons to come (or even what happens to Sansa in the books, ultimately). I can see how in the context of what we've known so far from the book and the show, she's been through enough. I agree. I didn't like they were making her the victim again. Again. After she just escaped such a horrific situation in King's Landing. I took the book purists side for awhile, then I came around and started to understand and appreciate their choice to switch it up so dramatically. Still didn't help make the rape idea any easier though. |
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Post by MarcusAntonius on May 20, 2015 9:56:14 GMT
Yeah Sansa marrying Ramsay is the issue. Still have to do some major mental gymnastics to try and have that make any sense. Surprised it took Sansa getting raped to make some critics turn on the show. It has been a very mediocre season regardless of that scene imo
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Post by Admin on May 20, 2015 10:05:24 GMT
The problem for me is that most of the justified criticism out there is based around the characterisation of Sansa - or rather the new, horrible situations she has been put into stifling her development (certainly the development she seemed to be making last season and early this season). This is understandable, but really it should be seperated from the scene itself in the context of this new journey she's been put in. In this storyline they are doing the scene and the act make total sense. I can understand criticism towards how they've handled the story but in regards to the scene itself I think a lot of the reaction has been impassioned and reactive. With time I don't think so many people will look back so negatively. The thing is that I don't know why people think this somehow means she will regress. We see Sansa being clever and pround even during the very act - she doesn't plea for mercy because she knows it won't change anything and she doesn't fight because she knows it will make things worse. In the promo for the next episode we see her talking to Reek about defiance. So people are just operating under this assumption now that somehow because she got raped she will turn into meek, crying Sansa now. Well said and I totally get it that the entire notion of Sansa going to Winterfell and being put in that scenario in the first place has a lot to do with the outrage. But it seems like people are then attributing their anger at the wrong thing? Is the rape itself a convenient excuse or is it just rape itself they object to so strongly whereas other horrific events in the show have been less outrage-worthy? Well seeing how we have rape in our world, on such a big scale, it makes sense this is what upsets people more than something like eg. flaying. We have murder too but I always thought rape is a more cruel crime, as the victim has to live with what was done. So I think that anger comes from the combination of the heinousness of the crime, the fact that this is not justified in 'but it was in the books' kind of a way (that Jeyne was raped does not justify Sansa getting raped at all, contrary what to some might think), the fact that this is the 3rd time this show invented rape and the fact that this has happened to Sansa (one of the most beloved characters) by Ramsay (biggest monster in the series). There is also a lot of things that makes them look bad, even though it shouldn't: 1. some people think there is a pun in the title 2. some people think the show took away from SANSA'S AGENCY because the camera focused on Theon 3. some people think D&D were just waiting for Sophie to turn 18 to use her in sexual scene And then there are the interviews from Cogman and Sophie, which let's face it, are not very good and diplomatic, especially Cogman, you can excuse Sophie given her age but you shouldn't, and George's opinion which is basically just him slowly distancing himself from the series and responsibility Well, AFOIAF's reaction doesn't really need to be explained. It's a vote of protest giving the ep. a 1, not an actual critical evaluation. It's completely unfair but then, the Doom has fallen upon that site and the Stone Men are all that remain. Thankfully we escaped Valyrian slaves have ourselves a Braavos in this site.As for the critics calling it "unnecessary", I don't quite get that since we don't know what the followup will be and it will likely prove a VERY important development in that storyline motivating both Sansa and Theon to take action in WF and not sit around waiting anymore. For those calling it "gratuitous", that makes even less sense since the scene was shot in a very tasteful way, with two reaction shots that conveyed the emotions of what was going on without treating us to anything too gruesome. The cynic in me would say that the critics just bandwagoning along with this harsh line about the episode along to appease the permanently-outraged blogger types of this world. IMHO this sort of PC prating and moralizing and seemingly compulsory lip service to every possible social issue the world over and constant fucking walking-on-eggshells attitude is really ruining TV and film criticism. And just about everything else that I know of... But then what the hell do I know.  Yeah I really think it's too early to tell. In light of what happened in s4, though, the outrage over C&J was completely justified, seeing how they never even mentioned the scene again in the show. Hopefully they handle this situation better. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 10:13:21 GMT
All really well written and relevant points sati, thanks for all the detail. It's good to hear perspective and I look forward to hearing more from others on this as I don't think this shit storm is going to die down for awhile yet. I'm trying hard to be objective about it and to see all angles. Pretty tough when people's emotions are running amok out there in internet land and the media's eating it up like Hot Pie's hot pies.  I'm sad so many think this is really 'the end' for them and the show. Maybe they're overreacting or just being drama bombs who will be back next week just the same as ever. Never fails to baffle me why so many heavy handed show critics continue to bump their post count into the thousands week after week. Geez. If you hate it that much STOP. |
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Post by breakfest on May 20, 2015 10:14:27 GMT
The problem for me is that most of the justified criticism out there is based around the characterisation of Sansa - or rather the new, horrible situations she has been put into stifling her development (certainly the development she seemed to be making last season and early this season). This is understandable, but really it should be seperated from the scene itself in the context of this new journey she's been put in. In this storyline they are doing the scene and the act make total sense. I can understand criticism towards how they've handled the story but in regards to the scene itself I think a lot of the reaction has been impassioned and reactive. With time I don't think so many people will look back so negatively. The thing is that I don't know why people think this somehow means she will regress. We see Sansa being clever and pround even during the very act - she doesn't plea for mercy because she knows it won't change anything and she doesn't fight because she knows it will make things worse. In the promo for the next episode we see her talking to Reek about defiance. So people are just operating under this assumption now that somehow because she got raped she will turn into meek, crying Sansa now. I totally agree. It's what I meant with that last part really - the followup to the scene is the all-important part. By all accounts it seems like they will deal with the act in a way that did not happen last year with Cersei. The equation of a rape-victim with being weakened or broken is a very widespread social misapprehension, a dangerous one at that, and seems to be prevalent in the reaction we're seeing. |
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Post by freypies on May 20, 2015 11:03:20 GMT
As for the critics calling it "unnecessary", I don't quite get that since we don't know what the followup will be and it will likely prove a VERY important development in that storyline motivating both Sansa and Theon to take action in WF and not sit around waiting anymore. For those calling it "gratuitous", that makes even less sense since the scene was shot in a very tasteful way, with two reaction shots that conveyed the emotions of what was going on without treating us to anything too gruesome. The cynic in me would say that the critics just bandwagoning along with this harsh line about the episode along to appease the permanently-outraged blogger types of this world. IMHO this sort of PC prating and moralizing and seemingly compulsory lip service to every possible social issue the world over and constant fucking walking-on-eggshells attitude is really ruining TV and film criticism. And just about everything else that I know of...
But then what the hell do I know.
Exactly. I feel that a lot of critics have been acting like the Tumblrinas nowadays whenever a sensitive issue pops up. The show, from the very beginning, has had far worse things happen than what happened to Sansa, and I don't see how people are able to say that the scene was just done for shock value without evaluating future consequences. It just makes it appear as if an issue like rape cannot be represented in media, which I strongly disagree with, as crimes such as murder are worse yet are accepted and often even welcomed on screen by viewers. If this one scene is affecting some so much (which itself made it clear through Theon's face that the action is a heinous one), then how did viewers even make it this far with the show in the first place? Especially since he first episode itself had Dany's scene with Khal Drogo. |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 20, 2015 11:52:10 GMT
I think sati has already pointed the major issues here. Not only there is a (kind of sadistic) pun in the title, this scene not being in the books certainly has to do with the critics too. We have Sansa in (what seems to be) a position of power in the books, completely hidden from the enemies, with plans to take the Eyrie and Winterfell. Of course, we don't know how that will play out. But every other cruel/gruesome act on the series was "justified" by it being in the source material, so they were just doing their jobs. I am not sayin I agree to this, but we have to face that, when the show took Sansa away from her apparent safe haven, to put her in the position of being raped inside her home by the cruelest character alive, there was no way people would get that in a gentle way.
Now when comparing that to Dany, I don't think it is a fair comparison. I see that as rape in both books and show (making it clear because some people don't think so). Anyway, this happens in the beginning of the story, when there was a lot of room for hope and growth for the character. One big problem people are having with Sansa is that she has ALREADY sufferer what would be equivalent to what Drogo did to Daenerys. She was not raped, but she was beaten and abused and almost raped through three seasons. She had started to develop last season in the same way Dany started to, in the middle of season 1. That gave people a lot of hope - having her litteraly on her knees once again hurt the audience. Adding to this what I've mentioned before: this was not on the source material, and the apparent pun with the title... I get why people are mad. I am not, in fact I think the Winterfell arc is working fine this season, specially compared to the rest of it. But I don't blame people who got mad... Sexual assault is always tough, and these circumstances made it a lot worse.
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 20, 2015 12:01:35 GMT
(WOW SPOILERS) In fact, remember when GRRM released the Mercy chapter, and we came to the conclusion that he did it so episode 4x01 wouldn't "spoil" it with the Arya killing Polliver scene? I think he released rhe Sansa chapter, in which she seduces Harry the Heir, to point that she will not be getting the same treatment she got on the series. Again, we cannot be sure of it, this is just a theory |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 12:15:27 GMT
All great point all around, you guys.
In thinking back to my first reaction after watching the episode, it was really disconcerting to me. Although, we've known for some time that this is probably where the story was heading I kept on hopping that something would happen at the end and Sansa would escape her fate. Of course that didn't happen, she was raped and it was a brutal yet tasteful scene.
In looking at the critical reaction of fans and critics, I would agree with others that there is a disconnect. I'm not sure I can articulate this properly but I feel like the scene and the storyline in general has clouded for some the overall show, that because this storyline is seen unfavorably by many the entire show is now being seen unfavorably. To me this has been a much stronger season than season 4 (which I hated with the wrath of 1- thousand volcanoes). Storylines are merging, the story telling is getting tighter, we are comfortable with the character, it's to me a much more cohesive series then the previous season. This, however, is being overshadowed primarily by Sansa's storyline (although Dorne isn't helping either). I think it's okay to hate this turn of events in Sansa's story, I think it's important that we hate THE scene but we also have to acknowledge that a. we don't know where this storyline is going because it's completely different from the books and b/ this isn't the first time this has happened in the show, it's not even the worst rape we've seen in the show.
If you choose not to watch the show after this scene, if it was the last straw, that's fine but you also have to acknowledge this isn't the worst thing GoT has done, as bad as it is.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 13:27:47 GMT
I think sati has already pointed the major issues here. Not only there is a (kind of sadistic) pun in the title, this scene not being in the books certainly has to do with the critics too. We have Sansa in (what seems to be) a position of power in the books, completely hidden from the enemies, with plans to take the Eyrie and Winterfell. Of course, we don't know how that will play out. But every other cruel/gruesome act on the series was "justified" by it being in the source material, so they were just doing their jobs. I am not sayin I agree to this, but we have to face that, when the show took Sansa away from her apparent safe haven, to put her in the position of being raped inside her home by the cruelest character alive, there was no way people would get that in a gentle way.Now when comparing that to Dany, I don't think it is a fair comparison. I see that as rape in both books and show (making it clear because some people don't think so). Anyway, this happens in the beginning of the story, when there was a lot of room for hope and growth for the character. One big problem people are having with Sansa is that she has ALREADY sufferer what would be equivalent to what Drogo did to Daenerys. She was not raped, but she was beaten and abused and almost raped through three seasons. She had started to develop last season in the same way Dany started to, in the middle of season 1. That gave people a lot of hope - having her litteraly on her knees once again hurt the audience. Adding to this what I've mentioned before: this was not on the source material, and the apparent pun with the title... I get why people are mad. I am not, in fact I think the Winterfell arc is working fine this season, specially compared to the rest of it. But I don't blame people who got mad... Sexual assault is always tough, and these circumstances made it a lot worse. These are awesome points, had to highlight them - well put. I'll repeat what I said to someone elsewhere because I think it's pretty important to my points: "Personally I think the outrage is about violation of the story, not the character. I think enough people are making that clear and I'm getting a better picture. They could have left Sansa moving along in the direction she was going in the books - maybe it would not have been as exciting a story - I'm quite sure it would not have, but at least they'd have avoided this huge backlash and also the butterfly effect George himself has now mentioned on a couple of occasions. " While yes it hurts because it's Sansa in particular - I have to believe it's the greater violation of the overall story that has people upset and thus aiming that anger at the rape itself. Am I getting closer to the mark on this for some (not everyone) on that? |
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Post by mattpeto on May 20, 2015 13:45:15 GMT
(WOW SPOILERS) In fact, remember when GRRM released the Mercy chapter, and we came to the conclusion that he did it so episode 4x01 wouldn't "spoil" it with the Arya killing Polliver scene? I think he released rhe Sansa chapter, in which she seduces Harry the Heir, to point that she will not be getting the same treatment she got on the series. Again, we cannot be sure of it, this is just a theory I thought the same. It will be curious if he reads a new chapter from TWOW in a couple of days at KC convention. |
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Post by lordcarson on May 20, 2015 15:06:06 GMT
Even though this is the last thing I ever want to see happen, I wonder what the reaction would be if hypothetically Sansa is raped by Harry in TWOW. Would people be as angry with a book scene as they are with this (though I think both sides of the argument are being ridiculously hyperbolic)? Would anyone rethink their stance on this change if Sansa ends up in the exact same position, looking like she's gaining power before being brought down again, just with a different character in the books? I've been wondering all season what these hardcore purists would say if she god forbid goes through a similar situation in the Vale and if all of these critics quitting on the show would then quit on the books or realize that they were being a bit over-the-top about it all. Just something to think about.
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 20, 2015 15:19:42 GMT
Even though this is the last thing I ever want to see happen, I wonder what the reaction would be if hypothetically Sansa is raped by Harry in TWOW. Would people be as angry with a book scene as they are with this (though I think both sides of the argument are being ridiculously hyperbolic)? Would anyone rethink their stance on this change if Sansa ends up in the exact same position, looking like she's gaining power before being brought down again, just with a different character in the books? I've been wondering all season what these hardcore purists would say if she god forbid goes through a similar situation in the Vale and if all of these critics quitting on the show would then quit on the books or realize that they were being a bit over-the-top about it all. Just something to think about. I sincerely think - as a book snob that I have come to be sometime during this season - that people would be outraged if she is raped in the books as well. You see, the main problem is to put her in a safe haven just to have her thrown into hell once again. The show may have more critics than the books, because a) Sansa seemed to be more powerful in the show than she ever become in the books, when she became Darth Sansa; b) the show is way, way more popular than the books, that is undeniable; c) as far as we all know, the show did this freely, with nothing to base on the source material. If she is raped on the books, the books would get a lot of critics and the show would get less (but it will be too late by then), IMO. |
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Post by day dreamer on May 20, 2015 15:42:40 GMT
I'm sad so many think this is really 'the end' for them and the show. Maybe they're overreacting or just being drama bombs who will be back next week just the same as ever. Never fails to baffle me why so many heavy handed show critics continue to bump their post count into the thousands week after week. Geez. If you hate it that much STOP. If they're not back this week, I wonder if a lot will be back when/if Sansa gets some sort of revenge. I can sites like The Mary Sue covering GoT again if Sansa gets some sort of dramatic redemption. |
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Post by AdmiralKyrd on May 20, 2015 16:08:14 GMT
To me, it comes down to D&D screwing up by having rapes on the show that were tasteless, didn't develop characters, served no point, grating.
No one apologized. They didn't want to talk about it or address it. The creators had to be pressed for a year before they finally spoke.
During this time the viewers were like, "we still love the show, but don't do that crap again." Then they did it again, and it was very real compared to the other versions they've shown of rape. This event was visibly terrible and shot in a way to make you feel terrible.
It was done in a way that fits the books, the story, and will be dealt with by the characters - but because people grew to be so apprehensive of it, and they broke their trust with the viewer, everyone lost their collective shit.
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