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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 17:37:41 GMT
As time passes I realize I have a sense of unease about this that isn't really about the rape scene (which if it had to be done was done as tastefully as one could have hoped) or the change to Sansa's story line. If someone has discussed this thoroughly already, I apologize, but what I now see as the problem is that in the world of the show there is no way for the Sansa character we know to ever be empowered. The reason is that for the sake of the adaptation, there is really no such thing as court life in the show. Margaery has ladies in waiting, but Sansa and Cersei never have. Sansa has no handmaidens that I saw at the Vale or Winterfell. There are no horny young gentlemen going to jousts and staring at cleavage. Just think of what ghost towns the courts at KL, Winterfell, and Eyrie all are now on the show. Her power, if she has any, comes from her ability to operate within court society, fake smiles, veiled threats, velvet insults. Her courtesy armor is useless in a world with no courtesy.
I'm also becoming annoyed with an argument I'm hearing from the anti-rape-scene crowd (and usually those people are my people, so it's twisting me up some). The argument seems to be that since she was raped by Ramsey, she is weak and all of her character development thus far is for naught. Well, real live women (and men) who are strong, smart, self-possessed and plenty capable are sometimes raped. Rape isn't fair. It can be done to strong people if they find themselves in the right (wrong) circumstances. Rape doesn't mean Sansa is weak now. It's so tricky trying to navigate between those who think that rape is not even a crime and those who think it means the victim is tainted. She's not tainted by Ramsey. Ramsey is further tainted by his own actions.
Fire and Blood made an argument about why rape is different that I'd never heard before but that makes a lot of sense. Rape is frequently not acknowledged as damaging by a traditional audience, and that is very hurtful to those who have feared or lived through rape in real life. It's possible that some feminists have swung too far in the other direction to compensate for the experience of having rape minimized.
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Post by Admin on May 20, 2015 17:48:34 GMT
All really well written and relevant points sati, thanks for all the detail. It's good to hear perspective and I look forward to hearing more from others on this as I don't think this shit storm is going to die down for awhile yet. I'm trying hard to be objective about it and to see all angles. Pretty tough when people's emotions are running amok out there in internet land and the media's eating it up like Hot Pie's hot pies.  I'm sad so many think this is really 'the end' for them and the show. Maybe they're overreacting or just being drama bombs who will be back next week just the same as ever. Never fails to baffle me why so many heavy handed show critics continue to bump their post count into the thousands week after week. Geez. If you hate it that much STOP. These people are so weak. Year after year the show fucks me over on Stoneheart front and here I am running the board and watching and gifing and recaping every ep. I'm either very loyal or just batshit insane. |
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Post by Admin on May 20, 2015 17:53:08 GMT
As time passes I realize I have a sense of unease about this that isn't really about the rape scene (which if it had to be done was done as tastefully as one could have hoped) or the change to Sansa's story line. If someone has discussed this thoroughly already, I apologize, but what I now see as the problem is that in the world of the show there is no way for the Sansa character we know to ever be empowered. The reason is that for the sake of the adaptation, there is really no such thing as court life in the show. Margaery has ladies in waiting, but Sansa and Cersei never have. Sansa has no handmaidens that I saw at the Vale or Winterfell. There are no horny young gentlemen going to jousts and staring at cleavage. Just think of what ghost towns the courts at KL, Winterfell, and Eyrie all are now on the show. Her power, if she has any, comes from her ability to operate within court society, fake smiles, veiled threats, velvet insults. Her courtesy armor is useless in a world with no courtesy. I'm also becoming annoyed with an argument I'm hearing from the anti-rape-scene crowd (and usually those people are my people, so it's twisting me up some). The argument seems to be that since she was raped by Ramsey, she is weak and all of her character development thus far is for naught. Well, real live women (and men) who are strong, smart, self-possessed and plenty capable are sometimes raped. Rape isn't fair. It can be done to strong people if they find themselves in the right (wrong) circumstances. Rape doesn't mean Sansa is weak now. It's so tricky trying to navigate between those who think that rape is not even a crime and those who think it means the victim is tainted. She's not tainted by Ramsey. Ramsey is further tainted by his own actions. Fire and Blood made an argument about why rape is different that I'd never heard before but that makes a lot of sense. Rape is frequently not acknowledged as damaging by a traditional audience, and that is very hurtful to those who have feared or lived through rape in real life. It's possible that some feminists have swung too far in the other direction to compensate for the experience of having rape minimized. I agree with so much of this. That the popular culture stuff like movies and TV series depict rape for - at least now as it seems in Sansa storyline - no good reason is irresponsible. But in their livid rage those outraged are bringing it to real world further saying that Sansa is broken now. My God! People are going through horrible things in life, including rape, yet they are able to go on. I imagine for a rape survivor to watch a scene was unpleasant but what was truly the worst would be reading an article and reading that a rape victim is automatically 'broken', 'tainted' forever. I bet the people who say crap like this don't even realize that what they are doing is 10x worse than what the writers did. |
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on May 20, 2015 19:05:48 GMT
As time passes I realize I have a sense of unease about this that isn't really about the rape scene (which if it had to be done was done as tastefully as one could have hoped) or the change to Sansa's story line. If someone has discussed this thoroughly already, I apologize, but what I now see as the problem is that in the world of the show there is no way for the Sansa character we know to ever be empowered. The reason is that for the sake of the adaptation, there is really no such thing as court life in the show. Margaery has ladies in waiting, but Sansa and Cersei never have. Sansa has no handmaidens that I saw at the Vale or Winterfell. There are no horny young gentlemen going to jousts and staring at cleavage. Just think of what ghost towns the courts at KL, Winterfell, and Eyrie all are now on the show. Her power, if she has any, comes from her ability to operate within court society, fake smiles, veiled threats, velvet insults. Her courtesy armor is useless in a world with no courtesy. I'm also becoming annoyed with an argument I'm hearing from the anti-rape-scene crowd (and usually those people are my people, so it's twisting me up some). The argument seems to be that since she was raped by Ramsey, she is weak and all of her character development thus far is for naught. Well, real live women (and men) who are strong, smart, self-possessed and plenty capable are sometimes raped. Rape isn't fair. It can be done to strong people if they find themselves in the right (wrong) circumstances. Rape doesn't mean Sansa is weak now. It's so tricky trying to navigate between those who think that rape is not even a crime and those who think it means the victim is tainted. She's not tainted by Ramsey. Ramsey is further tainted by his own actions. Fire and Blood made an argument about why rape is different that I'd never heard before but that makes a lot of sense. Rape is frequently not acknowledged as damaging by a traditional audience, and that is very hurtful to those who have feared or lived through rape in real life. It's possible that some feminists have swung too far in the other direction to compensate for the experience of having rape minimized. I agree with so much of this. That the popular culture stuff like movies and TV series depict rape for - at least now as it seems in Sansa storyline - no good reason is irresponsible. But in their livid rage those outraged are bringing it to real world further saying that Sansa is broken now. My God! People are going through horrible things in life, including rape, yet they are able to go on. I imagine for a rape survivor to watch a scene was unpleasant but what was truly the worst would be reading an article and reading that a rape victim is automatically 'broken', 'tainted' forever. I bet the people who say crap like this don't even realize that what they are doing is 10x worse than what the writers did. I see what you mean, and I agree to it... To a point. It is a very difficult balance: treating the raped person as "broken" is wrong, however one should not underestimate the impact of it in a person's life. Several people take their whole lives to rebuild themselves. There are reports of women not being able to date men for over twenty years. Not to mention PTSD and other possible psychiatric conditions that commonly come after the event... On one hand, not treating them as broken is important. On the other, we have to take reality into account... That external help is usually needed. And this was Sansa's first relation. In her home. While she is safe in the books. I'm sorry guys, I really understand defending it, but as I said before, we cannot criticize those who can't take it. It is a lot to swallow. D&D went for a huge impact on this one, and they did it. |
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Post by Nezzer on May 20, 2015 19:28:36 GMT
All great point all around, you guys. In thinking back to my first reaction after watching the episode, it was really disconcerting to me. Although, we've known for some time that this is probably where the story was heading I kept on hopping that something would happen at the end and Sansa would escape her fate. Of course that didn't happen, she was raped and it was a brutal yet tasteful scene. In looking at the critical reaction of fans and critics, I would agree with others that there is a disconnect. I'm not sure I can articulate this properly but I feel like the scene and the storyline in general has clouded for some the overall show, that because this storyline is seen unfavorably by many the entire show is now being seen unfavorably. To me this has been a much stronger season than season 4 (which I hated with the wrath of 1- thousand volcanoes). Storylines are merging, the story telling is getting tighter, we are comfortable with the character, it's to me a much more cohesive series then the previous season. This, however, is being overshadowed primarily by Sansa's storyline (although Dorne isn't helping either). I think it's okay to hate this turn of events in Sansa's story, I think it's important that we hate THE scene but we also have to acknowledge that a. we don't know where this storyline is going because it's completely different from the books and b/ this isn't the first time this has happened in the show, it's not even the worst rape we've seen in the show. If you choose not to watch the show after this scene, if it was the last straw, that's fine but you also have to acknowledge this isn't the worst thing GoT has done, as bad as it is. Just curious, but why did you hate season 4 so much? It was my favorite season. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 20:51:52 GMT
All great point all around, you guys. In thinking back to my first reaction after watching the episode, it was really disconcerting to me. Although, we've known for some time that this is probably where the story was heading I kept on hopping that something would happen at the end and Sansa would escape her fate. Of course that didn't happen, she was raped and it was a brutal yet tasteful scene. In looking at the critical reaction of fans and critics, I would agree with others that there is a disconnect. I'm not sure I can articulate this properly but I feel like the scene and the storyline in general has clouded for some the overall show, that because this storyline is seen unfavorably by many the entire show is now being seen unfavorably. To me this has been a much stronger season than season 4 (which I hated with the wrath of 1- thousand volcanoes). Storylines are merging, the story telling is getting tighter, we are comfortable with the character, it's to me a much more cohesive series then the previous season. This, however, is being overshadowed primarily by Sansa's storyline (although Dorne isn't helping either). I think it's okay to hate this turn of events in Sansa's story, I think it's important that we hate THE scene but we also have to acknowledge that a. we don't know where this storyline is going because it's completely different from the books and b/ this isn't the first time this has happened in the show, it's not even the worst rape we've seen in the show. If you choose not to watch the show after this scene, if it was the last straw, that's fine but you also have to acknowledge this isn't the worst thing GoT has done, as bad as it is. Just curious, but why did you hate season 4 so much? It was my favorite season. Same here. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:04:51 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though.
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on May 20, 2015 21:07:48 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. The first season is slow, the pacing is bad and there is too much exposition. It's still a good season, but it's not the best. Season 4, imo, was the best. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:19:35 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. I agree, season 1 by far had the tightest storytelling in no small part due to the fact that it was the closes of the season to stay within the source material. I think season 5 has been the second strongest season so far, with season 3 coming in third. I found season 4 to be slow, the storytelling was disjointed and really just no very enjoyable to me. I particularly disliked Dany's storyline, after episode 2 it just dragged, the writing, directing and acting were mostly poor. I didn't like Brienne arc, Sansa's arc wasn't that great either. Bran and Co. reaching the Three-eyed Crow was just absolutely ridiculous. The skeletons were out of a 1980's film, Jojen exploiting was just bizarre and the Three-eyed Crow was just an old man sitting in a tree, nothing special, no spectacle about it. Further the Children of the Forrest where just that, children dressed in cheap costumes. And the ending was just nothing special, which showed why the season wasn't special at all. There were other stuff I didn't like but I just don't want to get into it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:25:41 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. I agree, season 1 by far had the tightest storytelling in no small part due to the fact that it was the closes of the season to stay within the source material. I think season 5 has been the second strongest season so far, with season 3 coming in third. I found season 4 to be slow, the storytelling was disjointed and really just no very enjoyable to me. I particularly disliked Dany's storyline, after episode 2 it just dragged, the writing, directing and acting were mostly poor. I didn't like Brienne arc, Sansa's arc wasn't that great either. Bran and Co. reaching the Three-eyed Crow was just absolutely ridiculous. The skeletons were out of a 1980's film, Jojen exploiting was just bizarre and the Three-eyed Crow was just an old man sitting in a tree, nothing special, no spectacle about it. Further the Children of the Forrest where just that, children dressed in cheap costumes. And the ending was just nothing special, which showed why the season wasn't special at all. There were other stuff I didn't like but I just don't want to get into it. Ugh!!! The Children episode was an abomination. I'm not the biggest Bran fan (I do like him), but that is absolutely the highlight of his arc so far in the books, and they massacred it. Jason and the Argonauts, fireballs of death, Leaf was awful, etc. I had many other problems with season 4, but that was right st the top of the list. Was pretty dissapointed by the closing scene of Arya on boat too. We all know what it should have been. At this point I'd rate the seasons; 1>3>5>4>2 |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:38:10 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. In terms of adaptation, season 1 was the best hands down. But in terms of overall quality, I wouldn't rank it first. |
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sj4iy
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Post by sj4iy on May 20, 2015 21:41:48 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. In terms of adaptation, season 1 was the best hands down. But in terms of overall quality, I wouldn't rank it first. ^This. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:42:01 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. In terms of adaptation, season 1 was the best hands down. But in terms of overall quality, I wouldn't rank it first. I just think it was the most consistent. There wasn't one episode I disliked. I can't say that about any other seasons. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 22:14:45 GMT
I'm always suprised when I see anyone say any season other than the 1st is their favorite. To me the quality of the 1st season is so much higher than any that have followed it's not even comparable. Each their own though. In terms of adaptation, season 1 was the best hands down. But in terms of overall quality, I wouldn't rank it first. This so much. Best adaptation does NOT equal best quality. I'm shocked when people say Season 1 is the best. I won't rank 5 yet until after 510. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 22:23:53 GMT
I don't really know where I stand RE: rankings since it's been a while since I've watched the whole series, but I'll rewatch it all once S5 is over and done with and do it then  |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 22:32:03 GMT
I don't really know where I stand RE: rankings since it's been a while since I've watched the whole series, but I'll rewatch it all once S5 is over and done with and do it then Same here. I didn't start watching until a little after Season 3 had ended, so its been over 2 years since I've seen them. I've only watched each season once too. I'll rewatch them all though after Season 5. |
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Post by Nezzer on May 20, 2015 22:47:00 GMT
Season 1 was consistently good, but I don't think it stood out too much. I'd still rank seasons 4 and 3,respectively, above it.They were less consistent, but they were much more interesting IMHO. Season 2 is still my least favorite, with season 5 ranked between 1 and 2.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:01:48 GMT
I rewatch religiously and have seen most episodes countless times. s4 is my favouite. It had the most ten-out-of-ten episodes for me. I'm not sure yet where s5 will stand. It's first six eps. weren't on part with s4's but if the last four eps. are ten-out-of-tens it could up its average significantly. We'll see.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:18:50 GMT
I agree with so much of this. That the popular culture stuff like movies and TV series depict rape for - at least now as it seems in Sansa storyline - no good reason is irresponsible. But in their livid rage those outraged are bringing it to real world further saying that Sansa is broken now. My God! People are going through horrible things in life, including rape, yet they are able to go on. I imagine for a rape survivor to watch a scene was unpleasant but what was truly the worst would be reading an article and reading that a rape victim is automatically 'broken', 'tainted' forever. I bet the people who say crap like this don't even realize that what they are doing is 10x worse than what the writers did. I see what you mean, and I agree to it... To a point. It is a very difficult balance: treating the raped person as "broken" is wrong, however one should not underestimate the impact of it in a person's life. Several people take their whole lives to rebuild themselves. There are reports of women not being able to date men for over twenty years. Not to mention PTSD and other possible psychiatric conditions that commonly come after the event... On one hand, not treating them as broken is important. On the other, we have to take reality into account... That external help is usually needed. And this was Sansa's first relation. In her home. While she is safe in the books. I'm sorry guys, I really understand defending it, but as I said before, we cannot criticize those who can't take it. It is a lot to swallow. D&D went for a huge impact on this one, and they did it. Thank you for this and I also wanted to thank @witchy for the original post sati quoted and responded to as well which gives the counterpoint important to understanding a part of the outrage I think. I've read this here and a few other places. Some are (perhaps rightfully so) outraged that it seems the only way a woman on the show can become powerful is to be victimized and then somehow overcome that to get revenge or power. That women cannot stand on their own merits without first having been mistreated by men and therefore the entire show is misogynistic. I don't subscribe to blanket accusations like that nor do I dismiss the story as "written in medieval times so therefore women are property" either. It really does boil down to careful balance as King Patchface said. It's a thin tightrope the show writers seem willing to walk and fall off of and get back up on and go again I suppose. Maybe they really don't see themselves as falling and making mistakes, hence all the defending of their decisions and no apologies. I wanted to give them more credit then that because the do write some good stuff and have had some brilliant scenes over the years that were never in the books and I'm glad were added. As for the critical backlash, I partially blame the enormous popularity of the show with mainstream viewers that has grown exponentially each season. The media has to jump on this, it's like being invited to the most exclusive club on television. I think a great many of the critical one-liners I've read were quite pointed and spot on while others were parroting or simply shock value reactions to stir the pot. While it does equate to real life issues (feminism, rape, violence in our culture etc) I'm trying hard to weed that out and keep it to the outrage of the character and story. It's already muddy enough, so adding real life issues is just making it worse IMO. I've come to the conclusion that there's a lot of misunderstanding about the story for Sansa, for Theon, even for Ramsay and all the satellite characters that it affects (Jon, Brienne, even Stannis in some ways). It's a giant swirling maelstrom of lives being sucked into a vortex of unknown repercussions and we have no choice but to grip onto the sides of our tiny boats and either ride on down the rabbit hole or jump ship and swim like hell the other direction I guess. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 23:27:15 GMT
In terms of adaptation, season 1 was the best hands down. But in terms of overall quality, I wouldn't rank it first. This so much. Best adaptation does NOT equal best quality. I'm shocked when people say Season 1 is the best. Is that a hard and fast rule? Because when the source material is something as good as ASoIaF, I think it's best to stick to it. Especially when you're responsible for writing shit like Wolverine Origins and Troy. |
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