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Post by lordcarson on Jun 2, 2015 15:20:36 GMT
but it would be character assassination to divert Jon from the Wall after that Hardhome sequence. I thought we were rid of this term.  |
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Post by janicia on Jun 2, 2015 15:30:18 GMT
but it would be character assassination to divert Jon from the Wall after that Hardhome sequence. I thought we were rid of this term. Sorry. I know that phrase gets thrown around a lot lazily. I don't use it lightly or often, but I could have made my point without that phrase. Jon's decision to march on Winterfell in the books was a bad decision. But making that same decision in the context established by the show would be lunacy. Which is why the writers have been spending so much time setting up Olly's decision to murder Jon - Jon isn't going to do something stupid enough to provoke reasonable men into mutiny in the show. I think they're also softening Dany's abandonment of Mereen by having a lot of insurrectionists threaten her life rather than her just getting sick of all the BS. The show doesn't have as much time to get to the end as the books do, so these characters can't f*** up as badly at this point and still be redeemable as great leaders. |
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 2, 2015 15:32:27 GMT
I thought we were rid of this term. Sorry. I know that phrase gets thrown around a lot lazily. I don't use it lightly or often, but I could have made my point without that phrase. Jon's decision to march on Winterfell in the books was a bad decision. But making that same decision in the context established by the show would be lunacy. Which is why the writers have been spending so much time setting up Olly's decision to murder Jon - Jon isn't going to do something stupid enough to provoke reasonable men into mutiny in the show. I think they're also softening Dany's abandonment of Mereen by having a lot of insurrectionists threaten her life rather than her just getting sick of all the BS. The show doesn't have as much time to get to the end as the books do, so these characters can't f*** up as badly at this point and still be redeemable as great leaders. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, I just hate that term  you're right though, it would be a silly decision for Jon to leave after what he just saw, but I think if he did, it would only work if he was leaving for Arya. He just doesn't have the same connection with her. But on the Dany point, I think Tyrion is pushing her towards the being sick of it all thing. |
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Post by mattpeto on Jun 2, 2015 15:41:24 GMT
I think the seeds have been sowed a little bit.
-Stannis told him "the man that rules Winterfell stabbed Robb Stark in the heart" [paraphrasing]
-Stannis offered to legitimize him.
-Jon hates Boltons. You saw Jon nearly refuse Sam to ask the Bolton for help for recruits
Yes what he saw at Hardhome was horrible. It makes it hard to think he can justify leaving the Wall for Sansa, but the line like: "Ramsay Bolton has been raping your sister every night" might make him blink.
It did in the books. Plus maybe he'll think it's Arya.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 8:17:40 GMT
Also Ramsay telling Sansa that Jon is now the LC might be some kind of foreshadowing.
I was just thinking about other casualties if FTW is a longer scene. Could Tormund and Edd die with Jon?
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 10:10:16 GMT
Hey everyone, new guy here.
I was wondering: if the location reveals and casting calls suggest that Sam is gonna leave for the Citadel next season, how is it possible that FTW is gonna happen in this one?
Also, it's pretty much clear we won't be having the battle of Winterfell in this season but we'll get some kind of Ramsay+20 men (sic) against Stannis fight, which will lead up to the final confrontation early next season.
If you add the fact that it's unlikely they'll use the Pink Letter in the show, then how is it possible that FTW is gonna happen this season?
Sure, we have Jon raising the hate with the whole Wildling thing, but is it enough to set up for the big scene?
I mean, aside from Olly the little sh*t, Bowen and March (who I honestly don't see doing it themselves), we have just a bunch of generic grumbling crows.
Will the Wildlings provide sufficient reason to murder the damn Lord Commander? I don't think so.
The whole point in the books was that Jon was hated, but crossed the line when he broke his vows to fight the Boltons.
And with only two episodes left, considering the amount of jaw-breaking events they're gonna show, and considering that Jon was already the main character of the big battle in hardhome...
I just started thining that maybe FTW is not gonna show up this season.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 10:56:20 GMT
Hey everyone, new guy here. I was wondering: if the location reveals and casting calls suggest that Sam is gonna leave for the Citadel next season, how is it possible that FTW is gonna happen in this one? Also, it's pretty much clear we won't be having the battle of Winterfell in this season but we'll get some kind of Ramsay+20 men (sic) against Stannis fight, which will lead up to the final confrontation early next season. If you add the fact that it's unlikely they'll use the Pink Letter in the show, then how is it possible that FTW is gonna happen this season? Sure, we have Jon raising the hate with the whole Wildling thing, but is it enough to set up for the big scene? I mean, aside from Olly the little sh*t, Bowen and March (who I honestly don't see doing it themselves), we have just a bunch of generic grumbling crows. Will the Wildlings provide sufficient reason to murder the damn Lord Commander? I don't think so. The whole point in the books was that Jon was hated, but crossed the line when he broke his vows to fight the Boltons. And with only two episodes left, considering the amount of jaw-breaking events they're gonna show, and considering that Jon was already the main character of the big battle in hardhome... I just started thining that maybe FTW is not gonna show up this season. How do you see the rest of his arc playing out this season? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 11:12:40 GMT
Hey everyone, new guy here. I was wondering: if the location reveals and casting calls suggest that Sam is gonna leave for the Citadel next season, how is it possible that FTW is gonna happen in this one? There's nothing really to suggest Sam won't leave for the Citadel in the finale, though. I expect they've held it off because nothing that happens there would be really relevant until early S6 and they didn't want to have Sam and Gilly on a boat for an entire season (thank the gods). He can leave in 510 but he doesn't have to get there until 601 or 602. |
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 11:53:39 GMT
There's nothing really to suggest Sam won't leave for the Citadel in the finale, though. I expect they've held it off because nothing that happens there would be really relevant until early S6 and they didn't want to have Sam and Gilly on a boat for an entire season (thank the gods). He can leave in 510 but he doesn't have to get there until 601 or 602. How do you see the rest of his arc playing out this season? I'm not sure. I know that if they plan to leave Jon's death ambiguous, they can't just drop the bomb in, say, ep.604 and ignore the storyline for the rest of the season, so if that's the case, the only two options are this or next year's season finale. It's also hard to picture the Bolton-Stannis-Jon storyline running for another entire season, though. To me, it's hard to accept that they would skip the entire "Jon breaks his vows" thing to just make the Brothers kill him because of the Wildlings. As I said, I think that line-crossing decision is pivotal and necessary for the whole FTW event. I'm not saying that the authors 100% won't do it, I'm saying that if they do, it means that Jon "dies" before Stannis attacks Winterfell, and before Sam departs for the Citadel (which is Jon's doing in the books). Jon could send Sam to the Citadel before FTW, it's true, but there have been no hints toward it besides Maester Aemon's death, which to me did't look like a set-up for this, but more like an emotional moment for Sam. They could make Sam and Gilly run away from the Wall as a conseguence of this event, sure, but at this point we are entering pure speculation territory, where all theories are legit. It'd also mean that the Brothers would then proceed to slaughter the Wildlings Jon brought from Hardhome... And I honestly don't see yet another big battle involving them for three seasons in a row, also considering that the Battle of Winterfell is already set to happen next year, and the fact that the Crows are something like 50 people against hundreds of Wildlings, and this time without a 700 feet wall between them. To sum up my thoughts: imho, it's possible FTW doesn't happen this season. Stannis could fight Ramsey, to deliver some sort of half-closure for his storyline, waiting for the big battle next year. Jon could face some sort of challenge for his authority after his return, maybe with a much-awaited confrontation with ser Alliser, also delivering the anticipated fourth unexpected death in the season and adding more hate to the ranks of the Crows in anticipation for next year's FTW. Next year, Jon struggles to decide wether or not to march on Winterfell after Stannis' defeat early in 602 or 603, and FTW happens. After all, D&D worked with GRRM and already know if Jon survives FTW. Martin said his intentions are to publish TWoW before season 6 airs (good luck with that...). If this id the case, by then Jon's fate will be known to the pubblic too, and D&D would be free to make it a end-of-episode cliffhanger rather than a end-of-season one. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 14:10:38 GMT
It'll be a huge curveball if they don't do FTW in 510.
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 14:24:02 GMT
It'll be a huge curveball if they don't do FTW in 510. Honestly they hinted to it but it could just as well be all setup for it to happen next season. Jon already had his massive moment in Hardhome, plus pretty much everyone expects FTW, so I don't see it "break the internet" as it was hinted. As I said, making Alliser challenge Jon would add the drama and conclusion needed for the storyline this season with a solid yet not jaw-breaking moment, while building towards FTW when Jon breaks his vows in season 6. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 14:31:58 GMT
FTW has been too heavily foreshadowed, hinted at and set up for it to be left off until next season. It's happening in 510.
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Post by mattpeto on Jun 5, 2015 14:50:24 GMT
I believe we'll see FTW in 5.10. However, the #1 reason why FTW wouldn't happen in 5.10, is because it would be tough to hide Kit Harington from returning in season 6. I know Charles Dance showed up for one scene playing a corpse, but the spoiler-detectives out there would figure out if he has a heavy role or not.
If we get FTW in 5.10, it's almost certain we get his outcome (TWOW spoiler)- he'll either be shown alive, warging, resurrected or actually dead (although, I put that less than 10%)...
I hope this subplot alone is making GRRM write his ass off...
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 15:53:36 GMT
FTW has been too heavily foreshadowed, hinted at and set up for it to be left off until next season. It's happening in 510. Yes, I understand. Still, what about the motivations behind it? Are you saying they're gonna change "FTW 'cause of broken vows" into some "Olly decides to kill Jon 'cause Wildlings killed mom"? I don't know if I'm ok with that... I believe we'll see FTW in 5.10. However, the #1 reason why FTW wouldn't happen in 5.10, is because it would be tough to hide Kit Harington from returning in season 6. I know Charles Dance showed up for one scene playing a corpse, but the spoiler-detectives out there would figure out if he has a heavy role or not. This. FTW as a season finale makes it absolutely impossible to maintain the cliffhanger up until next year. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 16:02:04 GMT
FTW has been too heavily foreshadowed, hinted at and set up for it to be left off until next season. It's happening in 510. Yes, I understand. Still, what about the motivations behind it? Are you saying they're gonna change "FTW 'cause of broken vows" into some "Olly decides to kill Jon 'cause Wildlings killed mom"? I don't know if I'm ok with that... Probably. This is D&D, they do stupid stuff all the time. Who knows, maybe Jon finds out about Sansa and a version of the pink letter is in and he wants to go rescue her. |
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 16:12:37 GMT
Probably. This is D&D, they do stupid stuff all the time. Who knows, maybe Jon finds out about Sansa and a version of the pink letter is in and he wants to go rescue her. Yeah, I don't know. I understand the diffidence towards D&D, they have done stupid stuff in the past, after all. But just because it happened in the past it doesn't mean it's meant to happen everytime. To me it doesn't sound hard to believe that they would alter the reasons behind Jon's stabbing... but it's really hard to believe they'd change the dynamic of such a pivotal scene. They know the reaction of the fans very well by now. FTW is powerful because of the crying and the emotional impact of the scene. Olly stabbing Jon alone is freaking ridiculous, underwhelming and, most importantly, not what happens in the books. And they said clearly that the last scene was gonna be from them.. |
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 5, 2015 16:16:43 GMT
The scene is from the books. Doesn't mean the stabbers need to be the same. And I doubt it would be Olly alone...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 16:18:27 GMT
I also don't think the motivations behind FTW really matter that much, at least compared to the implications/aftermath of it.
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Post by kuroitheblack on Jun 5, 2015 16:27:32 GMT
The scene is from the books. Doesn't mean the stabbers need to be the same. And I doubt it would be Olly alone... Yeah, but my point was: I don't see all the screentime given to Olly being the reason for this "version" of FTW to happen. If he's not alone, it'even worse: it's "Olly, a 13 year old kid, matures hatred towards Jon's decision and convinces other Sworn Brothers to kill their freaking Lord Commander". That sounds ridiculous, but moreover completely disintegrates the whole meaning behind "For the Watch": they don't decide to protect the Watch from the decisions of a Lord Commander who breaks his vows, stabbing him in tears, they decide that Jon is to be killed becasue... Olly says so?Sorry, but I don't see this happen.. And i don't understand why would people prefere this over a well executed version of the whole thing °_° |
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Post by lordcarson on Jun 5, 2015 16:31:04 GMT
The scene is from the books. Doesn't mean the stabbers need to be the same. And I doubt it would be Olly alone... Yeah, but my point was: I don't see all the screentime given to Olly being the reason for this "version" of FTW to happen. If he's not alone, it'even worse: it's "Olly, a 13 year old kid, matures hatred towards Jon's decision and convinces other Sworn Brothers to kill their freaking Lord Commander". That sounds ridiculous, but moreover completely disintegrates the whole meaning behind "For the Watch": they don't decide to protect the Watch from the decisions of a Lord Commander who breaks his vows, stabbing him in tears, they decide that Jon is to be killed becasue... Olly says so?Sorry, but I don't see this happen.. And i don't understand why would people prefere this over a well executed version of the whole thing °_° I haven't seen anyone say that. It just looks like this is the direction they'll go with it. Maybe we should wait for the episode to air before we say that whatever they end up doing isn't well-executed. Judging it now is juuuuust a bit unfair. |
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you're right though, it would be a silly decision for Jon to leave after what he just saw, but I think if he did, it would only work if he was leaving for Arya. He just doesn't have the same connection with her.
