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Post by boojam on Aug 3, 2017 13:19:21 GMT
The bulk of the Lannister-Tyrell army hasn't fought since the Blackwater. Sure there would've been smaller battles like the one with Edmure and Gregor mentioned in S3, but it's pretty clear that otherwise there's not a lot of fighting at that time. I don't see how it's unreasonable for the Lannister army to be as big as it is. Edit: In fact they've had at least 8000 men since last season. I don't know why this wasn't a complaint then but it is now: Seems , wasn't there?, 60,000 in the Lannister army 1st season, I guess not all where at Blackwater. Still does not seem in the fighting since they could have lost 22,000 men!! Then we don't really know how many are at Highgarden. Gad nobody but nobody has an intelligence service or equivalent.
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Post by boojam on Aug 3, 2017 13:23:21 GMT
That's what I did not get about Highgarden. I thought they had a skilled army (wasn't Loras supposed to be a good fighter) and then this season Oleanna said "we were never good fighters." Then why was their army so desirable???? As good as they are D&D play loose with dramatic logic on the show. How can Euron make to sneak attacks after being stung by the first one? Too much story simplification.
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Post by Zadeth on Aug 3, 2017 14:19:12 GMT
That's what I did not get about Highgarden. I thought they had a skilled army (wasn't Loras supposed to be a good fighter) and then this season Oleanna said "we were never good fighters." Then why was their army so desirable???? According to the books, the Tyrells had some 50,000 soldiers under Mace at the time of Joffrey and Margaery's betrothment (though I'm not sure how many of those are bannermen, as Tyrion later says there are 70,000 Tyrell soldiers around KL once the Lannister/Tyrell alliance is formed). I also believe Mace kept something like 12,000 soldiers behind at Highgarden? Book Loras is a skilled fighter, I believe even Jamie says Loras reminds him of his younger self in some scene where Loras is training after becoming Kingsguard, but I'm not too sure about show Loras - we only seem him actually fight (I believe) at Blackwater (since there is no Dragonstone siege), and the other times are for fun, at the Tourney of the Hand and against Brienne for Renly's request; and we don't get snippets of seeing him train as KG as in the books. Show Loras is a shadow of the book character both in terms of fighting skill and depth and is one of the worst character adaptations I've ever seen. I guess it's just a case of a change for ease of storytelling. I don't think we're given these details of numbers/Mace keeping some back in the show. I also have problem with Olenna's line. "It [fighting] was never our forté, golden roses indeed". Surely it would be the opposite? They look pretty (weak fighters) but are actually very strong (the thorns hidden beneath)? Though that being said, I'm not sure who would be commanding the Tyrell army now that Randyll Tarly has turned to the Crown, perhaps that had something to do with it - knowing how they would react and planning against it (though was he at the siege of Highgarden? I can't recall but I think he was).
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Post by DaveyJoe on Aug 3, 2017 15:02:23 GMT
I don't mind Yara's defeat. I've been saying this for years, but the Greyjoys, and Ironborn in general are totally incompetent in both the show and the books. They are brash, violent simpletons. They have no economy except for raping and pillaging from people too weak to defend themselves. Every time they try to accomplish something, they fail. They somehow developed a small but vocal fanbase among book readers not because of their previous accomplishments, but the speculation of cool stuff they might do in the upcoming books. Aside from failing to rescue her brother at the Dreadfort, Yara has done nothing in the show except for drinking and trying to get laid. It is totally consistent for her not to be prepared for a surprise attack and to quickly be defeated. The Greyjoys were always going to be terrible allies for Dany, and I'm kind of surprised Tyrion seemed okay with it after knowing their reputation.
Last year we saw how ship-mounted trebuchets and catapults work in the GoT universe during the Siege of Meereen, so we can assume Euron had the same technology when he attacked Yara. I really enjoyed the sea battle and the chaotic energy Euron brought to the scene. It felt like utter madness was consuming everything, and an appropriate confusion for a half-drunk commander watching her fleet be destroyed.
As for Highgarden, the issue there is that they broke the number one rule of visual storytelling in TV and Film: show, don't tell. They just told us what happened, and that's very unsatisfying considering it's such a huge power shift in the context of the story. Olenna has been a major character with significant screentime since season 3, and her death lacked emotional impact because the circumstances felt so forced. It felt especially awkward compared to how drawn out the Jon/Dany story felt at the beginning of the episode. It undermines the political influence the Tyrells had in the first six seasons of the show if they just rolled over in defeat so quickly in The Queen's Justice. I often find ways to defend writing choices in the show, but this one just felt rushed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 4:14:23 GMT
I don't mind Yara's defeat. I've been saying this for years, but the Greyjoys, and Ironborn in general are totally incompetent in both the show and the books. They are brash, violent simpletons. They have no economy except for raping and pillaging from people too weak to defend themselves. Every time they try to accomplish something, they fail. They somehow developed a small but vocal fanbase among book readers not because of their previous accomplishments, but the speculation of cool stuff they might do in the upcoming books. Aside from failing to rescue her brother at the Dreadfort, Yara has done nothing in the show except for drinking and trying to get laid. It is totally consistent for her not to be prepared for a surprise attack and to quickly be defeated. The Greyjoys were always going to be terrible allies for Dany, and I'm kind of surprised Tyrion seemed okay with it after knowing their reputation. Last year we saw how ship-mounted trebuchets and catapults work in the GoT universe during the Siege of Meereen, so we can assume Euron had the same technology when he attacked Yara. I really enjoyed the sea battle and the chaotic energy Euron brought to the scene. It felt like utter madness was consuming everything, and an appropriate confusion for a half-drunk commander watching her fleet be destroyed. As for Highgarden, the issue there is that they broke the number one rule of visual storytelling in TV and Film: show, don't tell. They just told us what happened, and that's very unsatisfying considering it's such a huge power shift in the context of the story. Olenna has been a major character with significant screentime since season 3, and her death lacked emotional impact because the circumstances felt so forced. It felt especially awkward compared to how drawn out the Jon/Dany story felt at the beginning of the episode. It undermines the political influence the Tyrells had in the first six seasons of the show if they just rolled over in defeat so quickly in The Queen's Justice. I often find ways to defend writing choices in the show, but this one just felt rushed. In regards to your first paragraph, i find it hard to believe Yara is that incompetent. Because women are generally not respected in Ironborn culture, and even though she was the daughter of Balon her destiny would have been to be married off. But Yara must have proven herself among the Ironborn and gained respect from other captains. This doesn't just happen. I agree that we've never seen any of her victories or even any pillaging the Ironborn are so famous for. But i think the fact remains she would never command a whole fleet without proving her abilities as a commander and respect from the other male captains. Maybe she got a big head and thought Euron wouldn't have ships to attack her fleet..and she was just negligent. But i find it hard to believe.
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Post by stoneheartsrevenge on Aug 4, 2017 10:22:48 GMT
Even assuming Asha was incompetent, it would also mean we are to assume there isn't a single, semi-competent captain or even crewman in the whole fleet. Every ship should really have lookouts and should have seen Euron coming There is also the fact his fleet is sailing past Dragonstone to reach Asha's fleet and the Unsullied fleet but nevermind. I do agree that the Ironborn in the show really haven't been portrayed especially well. Disagree with your interpretation of the Ironborn in the book though. They are rapers and pillagers true, but they don't just do so blindly. They are capable of being somewhat strategic too. Especially Asha, she understands the Ironborn way of life is not sustainable. It's the other dunderheads of the Iron Islands who refuse to listen to her. Anyway, I'm sorry, all I seem to do is complain in these threads. So for a change of tone, a few talking points; What do you all think Asha's ultimate fate will be? Euron kept her alive as his prisoner, so clearly there is still a role to play somewhere. I hope this isn't the last we see of her this season, Gemma Whalen is one of my favourite actresses on the show. As for Theon, I'm not sure what to expect. Another 'overcoming his fear' may be a bit repetitive but I can't see his story going any other way. From the promo I'm looking forward to Theon and Jon meeting again Do you think Jorah will show up on Dragonstone this week or next? I'm not really sure what the point of his greyscale was as right now as it hasn't had any real consequences so maybe it comes back? I dunno..
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Post by kingeomer on Aug 4, 2017 11:03:47 GMT
stoneheartsrevenge...my guesses to your questions. 1. I love Gemma Whalen too, I think she's been great in the role. I will say that Euron keeps her alive and perhaps when Dany does attack Kings Landing and/or Euron, Asha will be freed. Or Theon leads a secret raid of some sort to free her? 2. I don't get the point of Jorah's greyscale storyline since it has no implications in his overall arc. It would be interesting if it did come back or he accidentally set off an epidemic in Westeros. I will guess he meets up with Dany in episode 5.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 14:18:09 GMT
Yeh, i think Theon's storyline is getting a bit tired. I love Theon and Alfie plays him so incredibly well but i'm ready for him to die. However i don't think it will happen until the end...if it happens at all. He is one of those characters who would survive in war because of his fear of dying. And it is sad that he jumped off the walls of winterfell because death was better than being ramsay's bitch, but now he has some freedom and decides to just fuck over yara.
I think Yara will be the one to kill Euron. They're keeping her alive for a reason, not sure if my predictions are accurate or just reflecting my hopes at this point.
I guess Jorah's greyscale led him through more a character journey than actually doing anything for the plot. It gave Sam and Jorah some good moments so overall i'm not too fussed about it. Don't think greyscale was ever going to become some epidemic like they thought in the books with JonCon.
In fact, i think the Dorne and Highgarden losses this episode are due to the fact that Aegon isn't in the show, and all these houses fight for him, but Aegon will lose agaisnt Cersei and Euron.
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Post by TheMadQueen on Aug 4, 2017 19:37:49 GMT
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