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Post by Nezzer on Jul 7, 2015 21:14:39 GMT
But then he didn't have to die in the first place. Following your argument, killing a character to bring him back later is also bad writing. Using that logic, the best would have been not killing him at all since he's so important. But most fans don't say that about him, which I find inconsequential. By the way, Catelyn may not be THE most important character, but she was one of the original POVs and the matriarch of the most important family of the story. She was also the central figure of the most important event of the story (thus far). An event that is already considered to be one of the most iconic moments of television of all times! And Catelyn was the key character in that scene! I'm sorry, but that puts her in a very, very important position. She is not some obscure tertiary character. Considering only female characters, Daenerys is the only character that is more important than Cat. That is not nothing. Actually that is quite a lot. I know you guys are huge Catelyn fans but I disagree that as far as lead female roles go she was more important than other female characters in the story. Cersei, Arya, Sansa are all much bigger characters with central storylines entirely about them as individuals. Catelyn's story revolved around the North and Ned and Robb mostly. She was hugely important, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a central figure in the overall ASOIF story. Yeah, Catelyn was more like our eyes to Robb. Her role is very similar to Davos in that regard. They both have great influence on their kings, but it's the kings who are the most important actors in their stories.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 21:21:24 GMT
But then he didn't have to die in the first place. Following your argument, killing a character to bring him back later is also bad writing. Using that logic, the best would have been not killing him at all since he's so important. But most fans don't say that about him, which I find inconsequential. By the way, Catelyn may not be THE most important character, but she was one of the original POVs and the matriarch of the most important family of the story. She was also the central figure of the most important event of the story (thus far). An event that is already considered to be one of the most iconic moments of television of all times! And Catelyn was the key character in that scene! I'm sorry, but that puts her in a very, very important position. She is not some obscure tertiary character. Considering only female characters, Daenerys is the only character that is more important than Cat. That is not nothing. Actually that is quite a lot. I know you guys are huge Catelyn fans but I disagree that as far as lead female roles go she was more important than other female characters in the story. Cersei, Arya, Sansa are all much bigger characters with central storylines entirely about them as individuals. Catelyn's story revolved around the North and Ned and Robb mostly. She was hugely important, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a central figure in the overall ASOIF story. IMO: big storyline ≠ most important. Looking at it from your perspective, I would have come to the conclusion that Tyrion is probably the most important character of the whole story. He has a huge arc and I believe the most chapters and the most screentime overall. And while yes, he is important, I would still consider many other characters to be more important than him. By the way, Catelyn's story also revolved around herself as an individual. In fact, her most important trait as an invidiual character is that she sees herself in relation to her family, her husband and her children. It may seem to you that her story was mostly about them, but IMO it was actually about her in relation to her family. That is her most defining feature as a character. Family, Duty, Honor. But it doesn't matter what I say. The defining episode of HBO's Game of Thrones is The Rains of Castamere. This is the episode that people will talk about in years to come, no matter how many brilliant episodes like Hardhome we still have ahead of us. The Red Wedding is THE central and iconic moment (in terms of audience reaction) , even more so for the show and the last thing we see before the credits is a catatonic Catelyn dying. It's not a coincidence that she gets name-dropped more often than Robb and Ned.
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Post by Basil on Jul 7, 2015 22:11:56 GMT
Catelyn is not a very active character, she's first and foremost defined as a mother and she doesn't have much influence over the events that occur, but she's definitely sort of like the heart of the story, at least for the first half of it. Then, Martin kills her off, suddenly and without any resolution to her own personal conflicts and struggles. But he brings her back, although she's not really the same character anymore. Emotionally and physically, she's broken, a (metaphorical) demon, hellbent on revenge - and that is so terrifying to me, I can't put it into words.
Stoneheart's importance to the overarching plot is irrelevant. Catelyn is one of ASoIaF's original main characters and her story is not over yet. For that fact alone, Stoneheart deserves to be on the show as much as Arya, Sansa and Cersei - and definetely more so than say, the Sand Snakes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 22:43:35 GMT
I don't think LSH is so much a completion of Cat's story as she is an important part (or perhaps even a completion) of Jaime and Brienne's. I don't think she'll live much longer after doing to them whatever she does, so I guess she could be written around pretty easily really but it's a great bit of horror writing, so I would be glad to get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 23:06:13 GMT
I know you guys are huge Catelyn fans but I disagree that as far as lead female roles go she was more important than other female characters in the story. Cersei, Arya, Sansa are all much bigger characters with central storylines entirely about them as individuals. Catelyn's story revolved around the North and Ned and Robb mostly. She was hugely important, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a central figure in the overall ASOIF story. IMO: big storyline ≠ most important. Looking at it from your perspective, I would have come to the conclusion that Tyrion is probably the most important character of the whole story. He has a huge arc and I believe the most chapters and the most screentime overall. And while yes, he is important, I would still consider many other characters to be more important than him. By the way, Catelyn's story also revolved around herself as an individual. In fact, her most important trait as an invidiual character is that she sees herself in relation to her family, her husband and her children. It may seem to you that her story was mostly about them, but IMO it was actually about her in relation to her family. That is her most defining feature as a character. Family, Duty, Honor. But it doesn't matter what I say. The defining episode of HBO's Game of Thrones is The Rains of Castamere. This is the episode that people will talk about in years to come, no matter how many brilliant episodes like Hardhome we still have ahead of us. The Red Wedding is THE central and iconic moment (in terms of audience reaction) , even more so for the show and the last thing we see before the credits is a catatonic Catelyn dying. It's not a coincidence that she gets name-dropped more often than Robb and Ned. No, it is not my perspective that Tyrion is most important because he has the most chapters and screen-time. That happens to be because he is George's favorite character and so he writes from his perspective quite often. I think he personally injects a lot of his own personal views, witticism and compassion into that character. I also think GRRM likes using Tyrion as the overall 'narrator' of the story in some ways because of his intellectual perspective. He is the one character out of all of them that has either crossed paths with or been in contact with (both good and bad) almost every single other story arc in the series other than the Ironborn story and he may be crossing paths with them very soon. That doesn't make him the central "hero" of the story - it just makes him a very easy character to define all the other stories through. If he'd have made the central figure one of the more expected "heroes" (Jon or Daenerys for example) I don't think it would have been a hit because he doesn't identify with them the same way as he does Tyrion. But that's not the main point of the debate regarding Catelyn. As others have said, Catelyn helped define Robb, and all of her children because that was her central focus and goal, before death and after. She and Cersei actually have a lot in common except that Cersei is driven by power (and therefore corrupted) in her family love (as was Tywin) whereas Catelyn was driven by duty and honor as you pointed out. Both of them were willing to do some awful things for their family love - and Catelyn made mistakes as well. The entire debacle with the dagger and arresting Tyrion is partially what started the whole mess. Letting Jaime go was another and she did so out of deep love for her family and what she thought was the right thing to do. This is not me bashing Catelyn, it's me explaining why her character was an enabler and not a central figure. Her actions and involvement with Ned and Robb through their story arcs created events and changes to the plot. I loved her for that conflict and emotion. Yes she was a very important character, please don't take it the wrong way. She was, and her evolution into Lady Stoneheart is also important for the story at the point the story left off. I'm not glad they cut it, I'm really sad about it too. I'm not a huge devotee but I really did appreciate her story because honestly I think had I been in the same position I would have done pretty much the same things she did and made the same mistakes for the love of my children. I probably would have even resented Jon Snow though maybe not quite as harshly as she treated him. I'm a Mother so I know these things.
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Post by Admin on Jul 8, 2015 12:24:21 GMT
I think it's pretty safe to say now they cut Jon Connington/fAegon storyline in the show. I could be wrong but these cuts are very telling about their importance in the final two books and in the end-game. The same applies to LSH. People don't want to hear this but "bringing back people from the dead" in any story is often quite cheap IMO. Most of us believe they do need to save this gimmick for one important character that should have major implications on the end-game and the final two books. The subtle hints to resurrection have been planted which prove that it can happen in this universe. There have been hints that LSH character simply wasn't worth Michelle Fairley's time in the minds of D&D. D&D know where the story is going. I knew the arc, and that was it. -FairleyI'm not saying LSH isn't a great character in the novels and heck I'd love to see her. But maybe that "can of worms" isn't really worth it when you think of all the implications. Side note: Where can the LSH arc really go in the books anyway? After killing a few Freys or Boltons-which would be cool), do you want to see Catelyn/LSH die again in the novels? There's no happy ending for that character guys. I personaly don't want to read that because it in no way applies here. LSH fate is worse than death so I just roll my eyes whenever something like "cheapens the death" appears in the discussion regarding her character. It's not about happy ending. It's about revenge. Which is missing from the show which is frankly embarrassing in terms of writing. Bringing back people from the dead is only as cheap as the way it is written. I agree that it can be cheap when done poorly, but the way GRRM did it in the books was not cheap, IMO, and the way D&D could do it on the show wouldn't be either. In any case, this discussion is as old as the SoS epilogue and people will always have different opinions on that. To me, LSH only adds to the tragedy and the horror of the RW. It is not the same as bringing her back sane and unharmed. Replying to your side note: There is more to LSH than killing Freys or Boltons. The whole dynamic with Brienne and Jaime is very interesting. She could also meet her children. A fitting end for Stoneheart would be her sacrificing herself in order to safe one of her children. In this sense, she would finally succeed in which she failed to do for Robb. There are other possibilities as well. I'm sure GRRM has some good ideas. The problem for me is that resurrections take away a lot of the impact of a death, especially combined with GRRM's love for fake/feigned deaths. Even in the show, where we got just one resurrection so far, very few people actually believed Jon was actually killed. Now whenever someone important dies we will never feel the true finality of that death until the body is burned or buried, unless it's something gruesome that can't be simply fixed with resurrection alone, like Oberyn's death. It adds impact here, not takes away. I personally don't see how the impact of death is diminished by a resurrection the way it is shown in ASoIaF. Every time a character is brought back to life, be it through magic or ... "science" - they lose parts of what makes them human. Beric was nothing but the sad, empty shell of the person he once was - and that's pretty much also true for Catelyn, aka Stoneheart, who has absolutely nothing left in the world except bitterness, anger and the thirst for vengeance. Stoneheart fills me with dread. To me, she represents one of the most horrible things that has ever happened to a character in this series. Death is harmless, sweet and merciful, compared to Catelyn's new life. It's amazing storytelling, and to me it is heart wrenching and devastating to witness what has become of my favourite character. Nothing in this series has ever had the same impact on me as the first reveal of Lady Stoneheart in the epilogue of Book 3. I can't describe the horror I felt when she lowered her hood for the first time, I was literally shaking. But at the same time I thought, George, you magnificent son of a bitch, you are a fucking genius. Did he? It's time to reread the books then. But what I said is definitely true for the show and we are discussing whether or not the show should bring back characters like Catelyn. And in this case, show!unGregor is not a valid argument against the resurrection of show!LSH, IMO. Besides that, do you guys use the same argument against Jon? I've never read an argument against Jon's resurrection, but it would be only consequent to say that he should stay dead as well. We can't use the same arguments against Jon's resurrection, unfortunately. Jon being killed off for good now would simply be bad writing. His story is the most important in the series and his arc is still incomplete. You know what comes to my mind when I read 'bad writing'? 21 episodes without revenge for RW. But then he didn't have to die in the first place. Following your argument, killing a character to bring him back later is also bad writing. Using that logic, the best would have been not killing him at all since he's so important. But most fans don't say that about him, which I find inconsequential. By the way, Catelyn may not be THE most important character, but she was one of the original POVs and the matriarch of the most important family of the story. She was also the central figure of the most important event of the story (thus far). An event that is already considered to be one of the most iconic moments of television of all times! And Catelyn was the key character in that scene! I'm sorry, but that puts her in a very, very important position. She is not some obscure tertiary character. Considering only female characters, Daenerys is the only character that is more important than Cat. That is not nothing. Actually that is quite a lot. I know you guys are huge Catelyn fans but I disagree that as far as lead female roles go she was more important than other female characters in the story. Cersei, Arya, Sansa are all much bigger characters with central storylines entirely about them as individuals. Catelyn's story revolved around the North and Ned and Robb mostly. She was hugely important, don't get me wrong, but she wasn't a central figure in the overall ASOIF story. And in the books she is the central figure of revenge for RW. Something the show robbed her of.
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 8, 2015 14:03:31 GMT
If they're bringing in a Greyjoy they can totaly bring in LSH. Right? RIGHT?!?!?!?!
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Post by mattpeto on Jul 8, 2015 14:03:29 GMT
Well said Sati, but it's hard for me to agree that a revengeful Catelyn as LSH is "worse than death". If I had people kill my family and I could come back as vengeful zombie, I'm all in for that.
Her being alive and remembering what happened is not worse than death if she's able to get revenge.
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Post by Admin on Jul 8, 2015 15:41:09 GMT
Well said Sati, but it's hard for me to agree that a revengeful Catelyn as LSH is "worse than death". If I had people kill my family and I could come back as vengeful zombie, I'm all in for that. Her being alive and remembering what happened is not worse than death if she's able to get revenge. Being a vengeful soul with no chance of getting out and nothing good left is better than peace?
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 8, 2015 17:55:12 GMT
I don't think LSH is so much a completion of Cat's story as she is an important part (or perhaps even a completion) of Jaime and Brienne's. I don't think she'll live much longer after doing to them whatever she does, so I guess she could be written around pretty easily really but it's a great bit of horror writing, so I would be glad to get it. I think it's a bit of both. It's certainly important to Jaime and Brienne's story, but it's also a very sad note for Cat's story that she didn't get to die, and be at peace with Ned and Robb. I don't think she'll be around long after whatever happens to Jaime and Brienne either, but still. It's such a shock, it should be added.
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Post by Father of Dragons on Jul 9, 2015 9:13:37 GMT
Actually it's 20 episodes since RW revenge. Arya and the Hound killed those Frey soldiers.
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Post by mattpeto on Jul 9, 2015 12:30:04 GMT
Well said Sati, but it's hard for me to agree that a revengeful Catelyn as LSH is "worse than death". If I had people kill my family and I could come back as vengeful zombie, I'm all in for that. Her being alive and remembering what happened is not worse than death if she's able to get revenge. Being a vengeful soul with no chance of getting out and nothing good left is better than peace? Not sure I'm following. So you want her to come back so her fate is worse? I thought you wanted her to come back to hang some Freys and Boltons? If she's alive, even in an undead state, she can commit revenge from the RW.
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Post by Basil on Jul 9, 2015 12:56:07 GMT
Being a vengeful soul with no chance of getting out and nothing good left is better than peace? Not sure I'm following. So you want her to come back so her fate is worse? I thought you wanted her to come back to hang some Freys and Boltons? If she's alive, even in an undead state, she can commit revenge from the RW. We want her to come back because it is brilliant storytelling. Lady Stoneheart's fate as a vengeful, lingering spirit is worse than the peaceful nothingness of death, in my opinion. Killing Freys and Boltons for revenge may give her (and us, the readers) a short lived sense of satisfaction, but it won't bring her dead family members back, it won't make her situation in any way better. For Catelyn as a "person", it would've been better if she had stayed dead, because being alive again means she has to continue to endure pain. But for the storyline and as a continuation of the Red Wedding's horrors, bringing her back and putting her on a revenge driven killing spree was a stroke of genius.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 17:10:48 GMT
Not sure I'm following. So you want her to come back so her fate is worse? I thought you wanted her to come back to hang some Freys and Boltons? If she's alive, even in an undead state, she can commit revenge from the RW. We want her to come back because it is brilliant storytelling. Lady Stoneheart's fate as a vengeful, lingering spirit is worse than the peaceful nothingness of death, in my opinion. Killing Freys and Boltons for revenge may give her (and us, the readers) a short lived sense of satisfaction, but it won't bring her dead family members back, it won't make her situation in any way better. For Catelyn as a "person", it would've been better if she had stayed dead, because being alive again means she has to continue to endure pain. But for the storyline and as a continuation of the Red Wedding's horrors, bringing her back and putting her on a revenge driven killing spree was a stroke of genius. Catelyn's story is a tragedy and having her come back is both heartbreaking and satisfying so that vengeance is served. I enjoyed it in the books and I think it could have been handled well on the show. It's definitely not a 'good' thing to have her return and have to suffer undeath along with her entire family dead or missing. No one should have to endure that or what she experienced just before she died. I would hope she does not have to linger in this state too long in the books and that she can rest in Winterfell with her husband.
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Post by Basil on Jul 9, 2015 17:43:36 GMT
Catelyn's story is a tragedy and having her come back is both heartbreaking and satisfying so that vengeance is served. I enjoyed it in the books and I think it could have been handled well on the show. It's definitely not a 'good' thing to have her return and have to suffer undeath along with her entire family dead or missing. No one should have to endure that or what she experienced just before she died. I would hope she does not have to linger in this state too long in the books and that she can rest in Winterfell with her husband. There is no future for Stoneheart, she is definitely gonna die at some point, the only question is how. It would be such a huge bummer for me, if Brienne would kill her in the beginning of Winds of Winter to protect Jaime, because this would make Stoneheart seem like a plot device for Brienne's personal character growth. That would be the absolute worst-case scenario for me and I pray to almighty R'hllor, that George won't be going down that road. Red Wedding 2.0 seems plausible and it would definitely be a big scene and a climactic finale for Catelyn's storyline, but I'd almost wish for an ending for her that is more calm and more peaceful. I'm not smart enough to think of a scenario where this would be possible, but maybe she'll encounter one of her children, who will still recognize her as their mother, despite her gruesome appearance. This could lead to a heartbreaking scene, where she is mercy killed or something. I don't know, I just don't want her to die again, without knowing that all her children, except Robb, are still alive. And I'd want her to achieve something before she is killed.
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Post by Admin on Jul 9, 2015 18:00:19 GMT
Being a vengeful soul with no chance of getting out and nothing good left is better than peace? Not sure I'm following. So you want her to come back so her fate is worse? I thought you wanted her to come back to hang some Freys and Boltons? If she's alive, even in an undead state, she can commit revenge from the RW. You're not following indeed. It's brilliant story and she already had been through so much. Stoneheart adds both more tragedy to RW and Stark revenge - a bitter one, because it adds to Catelyn's tragedy but at least she is taking down the enemies. You act surprise because...I want to see my fav character unhappy? She is past broken and at least this storyline is badass. Not sure I'm following. So you want her to come back so her fate is worse? I thought you wanted her to come back to hang some Freys and Boltons? If she's alive, even in an undead state, she can commit revenge from the RW. We want her to come back because it is brilliant storytelling.
Lady Stoneheart's fate as a vengeful, lingering spirit is worse than the peaceful nothingness of death, in my opinion. Killing Freys and Boltons for revenge may give her (and us, the readers) a short lived sense of satisfaction, but it won't bring her dead family members back, it won't make her situation in any way better. For Catelyn as a "person", it would've been better if she had stayed dead, because being alive again means she has to continue to endure pain. But for the storyline and as a continuation of the Red Wedding's horrors, bringing her back and putting her on a revenge driven killing spree was a stroke of genius.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 18:02:03 GMT
Catelyn's story is a tragedy and having her come back is both heartbreaking and satisfying so that vengeance is served. I enjoyed it in the books and I think it could have been handled well on the show. It's definitely not a 'good' thing to have her return and have to suffer undeath along with her entire family dead or missing. No one should have to endure that or what she experienced just before she died. I would hope she does not have to linger in this state too long in the books and that she can rest in Winterfell with her husband. There is no future for Stoneheart, she is definitely gonna die at some point, the only question is how. It would be such a huge bummer for me, if Brienne would kill her in the beginning of Winds of Winter to protect Jaime, because this would make Stoneheart seem like a plot device for Brienne's personal character growth. That would be the absolute worst-case scenario for me and I pray to almighty R'hllor, that George won't be going down that road. Red Wedding 2.0 seems plausible and it would definitely be a big scene and a climactic finale for Catelyn's storyline, but I'd almost wish for an ending for her that is more calm and more peaceful. I'm not smart enough to think of a scenario where this would be possible, but maybe she'll encounter one of her children, who will still recognize her as their mother, despite her gruesome appearance. This could lead to a heartbreaking scene, where she is mercy killed or something. I don't know, I just don't want her to die again, without knowing that all her children, except Robb, are still alive. And I'd want her to achieve something before she is killed. I would agree that having her return in such a dramatic way would be cheapened and pointless if all she does is hang some Freys and then is killed by someone else before knowing her children are alive. I'm not sure how hip I am on Sansa meeting her Mother that way though. Sansa's been through enough hell already! Arya or Bran might be a better choice as they are on paths that would fit that sort of reveal. Rickon, if he ever comes back in the next season/book is not a good idea either - he was ripped from his Mother too young. He's going to have issues. I would prefer to see her have a mercy killing death after she's achieved what she needs to achieve. Still... when you think about it, what purpose can she really serve after the Stark/Winterfell story arc is returned to a proper advancement? I feel like similar to Stannis, she's not going to have a long-term purpose to the story once she's achieved her primary objective and that doesn't need to be dragged out for an entire book does it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 18:11:51 GMT
Catelyn's story is a tragedy and having her come back is both heartbreaking and satisfying so that vengeance is served. I enjoyed it in the books and I think it could have been handled well on the show. It's definitely not a 'good' thing to have her return and have to suffer undeath along with her entire family dead or missing. No one should have to endure that or what she experienced just before she died. I would hope she does not have to linger in this state too long in the books and that she can rest in Winterfell with her husband. There is no future for Stoneheart, she is definitely gonna die at some point, the only question is how. It would be such a huge bummer for me, if Brienne would kill her in the beginning of Winds of Winter to protect Jaime, because this would make Stoneheart seem like a plot device for Brienne's personal character growth. That would be the absolute worst-case scenario for me and I pray to almighty R'hllor, that George won't be going down that road. Red Wedding 2.0 seems plausible and it would definitely be a big scene and a climactic finale for Catelyn's storyline, but I'd almost wish for an ending for her that is more calm and more peaceful. I'm not smart enough to think of a scenario where this would be possible, but maybe she'll encounter one of her children, who will still recognize her as their mother, despite her gruesome appearance. This could lead to a heartbreaking scene, where she is mercy killed or something. I don't know, I just don't want her to die again, without knowing that all her children, except Robb, are still alive. And I'd want her to achieve something before she is killed. I always had the feeling she'd encounter Arya and is mercy killed by her. The child of hers who she 'struggled' the most with, who was the least like her, yet they are driven onto the same path of revenge by the same events.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 7:59:45 GMT
There is no future for Stoneheart, she is definitely gonna die at some point, the only question is how. It would be such a huge bummer for me, if Brienne would kill her in the beginning of Winds of Winter to protect Jaime, because this would make Stoneheart seem like a plot device for Brienne's personal character growth. That would be the absolute worst-case scenario for me and I pray to almighty R'hllor, that George won't be going down that road. Red Wedding 2.0 seems plausible and it would definitely be a big scene and a climactic finale for Catelyn's storyline, but I'd almost wish for an ending for her that is more calm and more peaceful. I'm not smart enough to think of a scenario where this would be possible, but maybe she'll encounter one of her children, who will still recognize her as their mother, despite her gruesome appearance. This could lead to a heartbreaking scene, where she is mercy killed or something. I don't know, I just don't want her to die again, without knowing that all her children, except Robb, are still alive. And I'd want her to achieve something before she is killed. I always had the feeling she'd encounter Arya and is mercy killed by her. The child of hers who she 'struggled' the most with, who was the least like her, yet they are driven onto the same path of revenge by the same events. on the surface, sure, but I think Arya and Cat are very similar people in a lot of ways.
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Post by Paid Debt Lannister on Jul 10, 2015 8:34:35 GMT
There is no future for Stoneheart, she is definitely gonna die at some point, the only question is how. It would be such a huge bummer for me, if Brienne would kill her in the beginning of Winds of Winter to protect Jaime, because this would make Stoneheart seem like a plot device for Brienne's personal character growth. That would be the absolute worst-case scenario for me and I pray to almighty R'hllor, that George won't be going down that road. Red Wedding 2.0 seems plausible and it would definitely be a big scene and a climactic finale for Catelyn's storyline, but I'd almost wish for an ending for her that is more calm and more peaceful. I'm not smart enough to think of a scenario where this would be possible, but maybe she'll encounter one of her children, who will still recognize her as their mother, despite her gruesome appearance. This could lead to a heartbreaking scene, where she is mercy killed or something. I don't know, I just don't want her to die again, without knowing that all her children, except Robb, are still alive. And I'd want her to achieve something before she is killed. I always had the feeling she'd encounter Arya and is mercy killed by her. The child of hers who she 'struggled' the most with, who was the least like her, yet they are driven onto the same path of revenge by the same events. I think this is very possible. And as Arya kills her, Cat realizes Arya is alive, and is allowed to die in peace. It would be a beautiful completion of her arc. Even better if it happens before she can kill Lord Walder (something like Love > Revenge) Any more news for hype, guys? I was thinking, IF she is in, it would be understandable if she is mad at Brienne, because Brienne turned her back at Sansa to go after Stannis (not saying she is wrong, but if Brienne says it, Cat would be furious)
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