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Post by Admin on Aug 17, 2015 19:20:48 GMT
Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are. That makes absolutely no sense, Roose. Of course it'll get likes but think about that post. That's just projection. Funny, cause that projection seems to shared by others on the board. So maybe you are the one projecting here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:36:05 GMT
Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are. That makes absolutely no sense, Roose. Of course it'll get likes but think about that post. That's just projection. But they do. All these obvious foreshadowings etc + mentioning things many times to make sure everyone understands. IMO D&D shouldn't bother themselves with making sure every casual viewer named Mike (no offense Mikes) understands every single plotline. If those viewers don't know what's going on, it's their problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:37:49 GMT
That makes absolutely no sense, Roose. Of course it'll get likes but think about that post. That's just projection. But they do. All these obvious foreshadowings etc + mentioning things many times to make sure everyone understands. IMO D&D shouldn't bother themselves with making sure every casual viewer named Mike (no offense Mikes) understands every single plotline. If those viewers don't know what's going on, it's their problem. No but my point is that no one would think Jon had a hand in something if he was dead while it happened. That's all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:43:40 GMT
But they do. All these obvious foreshadowings etc + mentioning things many times to make sure everyone understands. IMO D&D shouldn't bother themselves with making sure every casual viewer named Mike (no offense Mikes) understands every single plotline. If those viewers don't know what's going on, it's their problem. No but my point is that no one would think Jon had a hand in something if he was dead while it happened. That's all. And I agree. My point was that D&D might think that those casual Mikes would think so for some reason. This happened with Roose's "send their regards" line. They changed it from Jaime to Lannisters (which was a good change) so casual Mikes wouldn't think that he had something to do with the RW.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:45:41 GMT
No, because there's no reason anyone would blame Jon for that. We have no idea of the context she'll be burned in the books, only theory and supposition but I strongly doubt he'll be awake/alive at the time. So why blame him for that? Even if it's meant to resurrect him, he'd have had no hand in it and likely would be pretty pissed off to find out about it. People are looking for white-washing where it really isn't. Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are. what the actual fuck. do you seriously believe that D&D had Stannis burn Shireen because they didn't want to risk anyone laying blame at Jon's feet even though you don't think anyone would seriously blame him?!?!
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Post by Basil on Aug 17, 2015 19:55:02 GMT
No it wasn't the first sign of trouble. The trouble was set up early on in the season and mounted over the last few epiosdes. The problem of the cold and the weather was built up since ep. 504. Well, since 101 really given all the times we've been reminded "winter is coming". And to your first point, the possibility of leeching WAS addressed. Stannis said, "there must be some other way, leeches or something." So after large swaths of his army left him, he couldn't move north or south due to the weather (Davos said as much, this isn't supposition on my part), horses were dying left and right from the cold. And the attack WAS NOT minor and it was clearly not meant to be minor. It led to widespread destruction and really damaged his offensive capabilities as was set up in dialogue again with Davos. (And guerilla attacks are meant to be conducted by small groups, so this fixation on the number twenty is really stupid btw). And his decision was not out of nowhere. There was a moment in 509 where we saw exactly when he was convinced of it; when after surveying the massive damage on his camp with Davos he walked towards Mel and Selyse and away from his Hand. What they told him then is what at last changed his mind. And it wasn't a few tents and horses. Rewatch the scenes. The stakes were established. It was no flippant decision and the destruction was clearly worse and more serious than you say. Dude, I admire your love for the show, I really do, and you are probably right on some basic level. Maybe it is possible to make some sense in all of this Shireen-burning business, if you start analyzing like every small line of dialogue, every nuance in Dillane's acting, but the way they presented it, it just felt completely and utterly wrong and forced (and I don't mean wrong in the sense that, it's wrong to burn a child, I mean from a storytelling perspective, it felt wrong that it happened the way it did at that particular moment in time), and no amount of rational analysis will ever change that. It's abundantly clear D&D just wanted to wrap up Stannis' storyline as quickly and painlessly as possible. So they had Ramsay (along with 20 ninjas, apparently) infiltrate his camp off-screen and start a fire, used that as an excuse for Stannis to burn his daughter, had Selyse kill herself over Shireen's death, Mel and a huge chunk of Stannis' army leave, and finally, they had Deus ex machina Brienne just randomly find Stannis (the same way she just kinda randomly came across Arya and Sansa) and kill him for a crime, that virtually no one in the world cares about at this point (except me, because I love Renly). Yes, in my opinion, this is an extremely disappointing way to end the storyline of a character, who has been around for years and is extremely popular among some fans. Even the Red Wedding, as horrible as it was, didn't feel wrong - and it had beauty and gravitas. With Stannis, they obviously just wanted his storyline to end, so they made up some stupid excuse to kill him and his entire family off within two episodes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 20:00:58 GMT
Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are. what the actual fuck. do you seriously believe that D&D had Stannis burn Shireen because they didn't want to risk anyone laying blame at Jon's feet even though you don't think anyone would seriously blame him?!?! Kind of yes. Three options. Plus unlikely option 4. 1) That. 2) They just wanted to get rid of Stannis and his family quickly 3) They didn't want people to root for Stan in BoI and 4) Stannis actually wins BoI and burns Shireen later
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 20:03:19 GMT
No it wasn't the first sign of trouble. The trouble was set up early on in the season and mounted over the last few epiosdes. The problem of the cold and the weather was built up since ep. 504. Well, since 101 really given all the times we've been reminded "winter is coming". And to your first point, the possibility of leeching WAS addressed. Stannis said, "there must be some other way, leeches or something." So after large swaths of his army left him, he couldn't move north or south due to the weather (Davos said as much, this isn't supposition on my part), horses were dying left and right from the cold. And the attack WAS NOT minor and it was clearly not meant to be minor. It led to widespread destruction and really damaged his offensive capabilities as was set up in dialogue again with Davos. (And guerilla attacks are meant to be conducted by small groups, so this fixation on the number twenty is really stupid btw). And his decision was not out of nowhere. There was a moment in 509 where we saw exactly when he was convinced of it; when after surveying the massive damage on his camp with Davos he walked towards Mel and Selyse and away from his Hand. What they told him then is what at last changed his mind. And it wasn't a few tents and horses. Rewatch the scenes. The stakes were established. It was no flippant decision and the destruction was clearly worse and more serious than you say. Dude, I admire your love for the show, I really do, and you are probably right on some basic level. Maybe it is possible to make some sense in all of this Shireen-burning business, if you start analyzing like every small line of dialogue, every nuance in Dillane's acting, but the way they presented it, it just felt completely and utterly wrong and forced (and I don't mean wrong in the sense that, it's wrong to burn a child, I mean from a storytelling perspective, it felt wrong that it happened the way it did at that particular moment in time), and no amount of rational analysis will ever change that. It's abundantly clear D&D just wanted to wrap up Stannis' storyline as quickly and painlessly as possible. So they had Ramsay (along with 20 ninjas, apparently) infiltrate his camp off-screen and start a fire, used that as an excuse for Stannis to burn his daughter, had Selyse kill herself over Shireen's death, Mel and a huge chunk of Stannis' army leave, and finally, they had Deus ex machina Brienne just randomly find Stannis (the same way she just kinda randomly came across Arya and Sansa) and kill him for a crime, that virtually no one in the world cares about at this point (except me, because I love Renly). Yes, in my opinion, this is an extremely disappointing way to end the storyline of a character, who has been around for years and is extremely popular among some fans. Even the Red Wedding, as horrible as it was, didn't feel wrong - and it had beauty and gravitas. With Stannis, they obviously just wanted his storyline to end, so they made up some stupid excuse to kill him and his entire family off within two episodes. GIVE THAT MAN +10 POINTS.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 22:16:00 GMT
what the actual fuck. do you seriously believe that D&D had Stannis burn Shireen because they didn't want to risk anyone laying blame at Jon's feet even though you don't think anyone would seriously blame him?!?! Kind of yes. That is not why they had him burn her. Come on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 12:29:38 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. No, because there's no reason anyone would blame Jon for that. We have no idea of the context she'll be burned in the books, only theory and supposition but I strongly doubt he'll be awake/alive at the time. So why blame him for that? Even if it's meant to resurrect him, he'd have had no hand in it and likely would be pretty pissed off to find out about it. People are looking for white-washing where it really isn't. Ive read peoples comments who blamed Roderick Cassel for Winterfell getting captured. So yeah, if Jon Snow or the nights watch stood by while Melissandre sacraficed Shireen to R'Hollor after hearing about Hardhome (which is at least consistent with the story rather than doing it because of snow and hunger because you know, Stannis is the same guy who said "pray harder" and starved for the whole of Robert Rebellion) then yes, people would almost certainly, without a doubt blame Jon. If people blame Robert for the deaths of Rhaegars children, they'd blame Jon for this. And I'm not willing to even discuss the possibility that this wasn't the reason. Because there was no reason at all to match on Winterfell with Shireen and Selyse.
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Post by mattpeto on Aug 18, 2015 12:48:20 GMT
Reading through the last few pages, I think all parties presented some really good arguments. I'll just my add my 2 cents.
Stannis just didn't die. His character was assassinated.
Forget the human side of it, it made no political sense to burn Shireen. It's ironic that Stannis felt he was the next one in line, because his brother had no trueborn heirs. But he killed his only heir?
I don't know what GRRM has planned for his next two books. But it's pretty clear that it was GRRM idea to burn Shireen. Even if it doesn't happen in the books, it was his idea for the show. And if Stannis doesn't "win" or have a major role in the next two books, maybe it was time to end his arc. Sacrificing Shireen was a way to end it. It was a convenient way to move past the Baratheons (what else would Shireen and Selyse do with a dead Stannis?) on to a new story for S6. Now Mel is where she's supposed to be. And Davos needs a new journey.
Stannis wasn't a good man. He had some good ideals, but I never assumed he was Ned Stark righteous. He was not the savior of Westeros, like he and Mel thought he was.
He did some great things for his brother in the books during RR, but overall he was a pretty shitty war strategist. He lost one epic battle (Blackwater - confirmed in the books and show) and his last battle in the show (BoI). I'll be very surprised if he wins that one in the books.
His arc is done.
As for Brienne it was pretty cliche for her to kill Stannis in the end. If Stannis was to die, I guess I'm okay with it. I thought @rooseisazorhai laid out some key differences between the show and book Brienne. I like the show differences TBH w/ her character. I hate the fact that Brienne is still looking for Sansa and Arya (just like Tyrion isn't w/ Daenerys). AFFC Brienne was a huge borefest for me during my single read through.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 13:41:36 GMT
I'll put it this way. I have friends and family who never read the books and aren't even fans of Stannis who agree that his storyline was just badly screwed up. It went from winning to losing in the blink of an eye. As for Ramsay's "sneak attack" bullshit, going off mediaeval camps, food is generally stored toward the centre of camps, horselines are well watched to guard from predators like wolves and it is said that Stannis put up guards even when there was no need for them back in ACOK. So the fact twenty men snuck in, destroyed the food, burned tents and horses without a single one being caught is laughable. Also I don't buy the whole "they know this land better than we do" line, because unless they know every rock, tree, landmark and patch of dirt in that, wherever the fuck Stannis was meant to be, some sort of recently lumbered wolfswood, and came equip with some high grade camouflage equipment on a night where every watchman in Stannis' army decided to get high and debate about where snow comes from and also have the ability to remotely set off fires because that technology exists yet and Ramsay has clearly took on whole armies by himself before because obviously then this is still the most fucking stupid part of the whole story. Ramsay's plot armour is the most ridiculous thing about this whole series, the guy is untouchable, and its not even a Joffrey style untouchable where it makes sense. It's just a really dumb, stupid, nonsense piece of writing that was done to get Stannis out the way so that the northerners can save the north under Sansa and then they can say "Sansa has agency guys, just look!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 14:06:47 GMT
I'll put it this way. I have friends and family who never read the books and aren't even fans of Stannis who agree that his storyline was just badly screwed up. It went from winning to losing in the blink of an eye. As for Ramsay's "sneak attack" bullshit, going off mediaeval camps, food is generally stored toward the centre of camps, horselines are well watched to guard from predators like wolves and it is said that Stannis put up guards even when there was no need for them back in ACOK. So the fact twenty men snuck in, destroyed the food, burned tents and horses without a single one being caught is laughable. Also I don't buy the whole "they know this land better than we do" line, because unless they know every rock, tree, landmark and patch of dirt in that, wherever the fuck Stannis was meant to be, some sort of recently lumbered wolfswood, and came equip with some high grade camouflage equipment on a night where every watchman in Stannis' army decided to get high and debate about where snow comes from and also have the ability to remotely set off fires because that technology exists yet and Ramsay has clearly took on whole armies by himself before because obviously then this is still the most fucking stupid part of the whole story. Ramsay's plot armour is the most ridiculous thing about this whole series, the guy is untouchable, and its not even a Joffrey style untouchable where it makes sense. It's just a really dumb, stupid, nonsense piece of writing that was done to get Stannis out the way so that the northerners can save the north under Sansa and then they can say "Sansa has agency guys, just look!" Also how could they know the land, when it has 4 feet of snow? Trust me, even one place can look drastically different in winter than what it looks like during summer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 17:37:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 17:47:10 GMT
Did Stephen Dillane bang Amanda Peet after they wrote episode 8, what the fuck happened?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 18:22:19 GMT
C O N V I N C E D. Though I doubt he'll burn Shireen.
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Post by Admin on Aug 19, 2015 19:04:47 GMT
Did Stephen Dillane bang Amanda Peet after they wrote episode 8, what the fuck happened? Amanda Peet wishes...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 21:23:55 GMT
Did Stephen Dillane bang Amanda Peet after they wrote episode 8, what the fuck happened? Amanda Peet wishes... Gurl... I know you love him, but come on... I would go straight for Amanda Peet
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 21:41:28 GMT
She could get it..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 12:29:53 GMT
I don't think Amanda Peet is even that attractive...
EDIT: NVM, @konradsmith sent me some images/nudes of Mrs. Benioff proving her attractiveness.
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