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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 10:36:05 GMT
This I feel like we're missing context with this. The scenes we should have been watching with Stannis should have been his coming around to burning Shireen, instead we have "how dare you suggest burning my daughter!" -> "This cold is inconvenient. The food is low. Don't go and rally the north for aid. Burn my daughter!" That's not what the established stakes were at all. It was made plain that they couldn't move forwards and they couldn't move back. They were stuck and dying off. And it was only us hopefully misreading his scene in ep. 507 that led us to believe that he wasn't considering burning her then. He was and he never said no to Mel in that scene. Rewatch it. He said, "There must be another way." Which is very different from a definitive no. That's more of a "Has it really come to this?" And him sending Mel out and then brooding was actually him considering it. He's angry at Mel of course; he's angry at everything but he's not saying he'll never do it. Actually a lot of Unsullied and reviewers asked after that scene, "Shit will he do it or won't he?" It was mainly people with a positive bias towards him who went, "There, he laid down the gauntlet he won't do it!" But really nothing in that scene suggests that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 10:53:39 GMT
I love this line. She went on years of 'revenge' because the guy she fancied (and IDC what HBO says, she fancied Renly, for certain), even though he, according to Loras (who knew Renly way better than anyone else) he used to find her a joke. Compare this to a truly independent women, like Asha/Yara who actually defies the men around her does generally defiant shit. But no, no. Brienne is a shining example of female power. I genuinely think D&D are trying to be open minded by saying, "yes women can be strong and independent, but only if you're not physically attractive." And that's apparently D&D's non sexism attempt. What?!?! That's all shit you're reading into this. You can't just say, "I think they thought this, so fuck them for thinking what I think they thought!" That doesn't make sense. I've seen so much of this, "Brienne is ____ to D and D" here, on IMDB and on AFOIAF but, never in anything anyone to do with the show has said has this actually been voiced. Except by fans who angrily read this shit into show events and then claim that was the intent.
Stannis conceded in the show that he murdered Renly. In both ep. 210 and 510 when she came to him. So, it's not revenge in-quotes. It is revenge. Given her oaths to him it is her duty as Stannis, once again, conceded. And he didn't mock her in the show and she did have an oath with him and she did have an out from her vow to Cat specifically if it were for her pursuit of that revenge. All of this was set up. So if she were to come across him, which she did, why wouldn't she kill him? Because his fanbase is over-fond of him? Well, she didn't know that, did she?
No, I just really don't like show Brienne You can check my posts from way before she killed Stannis. Her story is all over the place. Also I'm going more off the books here in case you didn't notice, so you know. But no her show character was a lot different. And I get people like her, to me she was always a boring POV and didn't really do much for me, aside from Stoneheart she bored me. Her and Jaime's povs were probably AFFC worst, but that's just me, I thought AFFC and ADWD were the two worst books, aside from the Ironborn stuff, all talk no pay offs. Which is why I thought Hardhome and skipping Tyrions travels worked better. Again I'm not puritanical about the books, I just never read any of this heroic Brienne, she was always somewhat of a wannabe hero, after all, you know who once nearly killed her? Biter. But I know people like her, and hey, who am I to judge, I'm a fan of a man who is basically a secondary character. So hypocrite much, but screw it. Also when you don't actually know what a persons intentions are, then conclusions are all you have. Brienne was given no real foreshadowing. She said way back in S2, "I will avenge Renly" then nothing for 2 series. You can't leave something that important to the plot for two series without giving her a few lines about how she is aiming to get revenge on Stannis. The whole North storyline was rushed. If we had some scenes in between, like her sat in the inn and hearing that Stannis' army is marching on Winterfell, like way back in episode seven, and Brienne says to Podrick that she will go after Stannis over Sansa, then I would get it, but all that we got was a scene of her watching a window and then walking away. I don't count the scene where her and Pod talk as foreshadowing. She says Stannis murdered Renly, I will avenge him. The whole point of revenge from a viewer standpoint is that it should feel well earned. This didn't. It felt like they just rushed the story, and when you rushed the story and ruin a lot of plotlines and characters people like without any solid story behind it, then no, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say "best finale eva!" Because frankly the northern story this series was a clusterfuck of bad, and aside from Hardhome, this series wasn't really that great. I'm not going to like a character or admit that I find a story good just because the mass of people do, in fact in 90% of stuff I watch, I always prefer the less popular characters over the major ones. I've never been a fan of certain characters, I never will be and I'm not going to concede that Stannis death was fantastic writing because the lack of said writing is what pisses me off more than him dying
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 11:03:11 GMT
No, I just really don't like show Brienne You can check my posts from way before she killed Stannis. Her story is all over the place. Also I'm going more off the books here in case you didn't notice, so you know. But no her show character was a lot different. And I get people like her, to me she was always a boring POV and didn't really do much for me, aside from Stoneheart she bored me. Her and Jaime's povs were probably AFFC worst, but that's just me, I thought AFFC and ADWD were the two worst books, aside from the Ironborn stuff, all talk no pay offs. Which is why I thought Hardhome and skipping Tyrions travels worked better. Again I'm not puritanical about the books, I just never read any of this heroic Brienne, she was always somewhat of a wannabe hero, after all, you know who once nearly killed her? Biter. But I know people like her, and hey, who am I to judge, I'm a fan of a man who is basically a secondary character. So hypocrite much, but screw it. Also when you don't actually know what a persons intentions are, then conclusions are all you have. Brienne was given no real foreshadowing. She said way back in S2, "I will avenge Renly" then nothing for 2 series. You can't leave something that important to the plot for two series without giving her a few lines about how she is aiming to get revenge on Stannis. The whole North storyline was rushed. If we had some scenes in between, like her sat in the inn and hearing that Stannis' army is marching on Winterfell, like way back in episode seven, and Brienne says to Podrick that she will go after Stannis over Sansa, then I would get it, but all that we got was a scene of her watching a window and then walking away. I don't count the scene where her and Pod talk as foreshadowing. She says Stannis murdered Renly, I will avenge him. The whole point of revenge from a viewer standpoint is that it should feel well earned. This didn't. It felt like they just rushed the story, and when you rushed the story and ruin a lot of plotlines and characters people like without any solid story behind it, then no, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say "best finale eva!" Because frankly the northern story this series was a clusterfuck of bad, and aside from Hardhome, this series wasn't really that great. I'm not going to like a character or admit that I find a story good just because the mass of people do, in fact in 90% of stuff I watch, I always prefer the less popular characters over the major ones. I've never been a fan of certain characters, I never will be and I'm not going to concede that Stannis death was fantastic writing because the lack of said writing is what pisses me off more than him dying Actually her debt to Renly was mentioned in both s3 and s4 and, early on, was pretty firmly established in s5. In ep. 302 when Jaime figured out she'd served Renly he first guessed Stannis to which she indignantly replied, "Gods no!" In ep. 401 she brought up the whole affair to Margeary and said to her, "Someday I will avenge our king." Then again in ep. 503 she described the whole of it to Podrick. IMO that very clearly set it up.
Actually after the mention of it all again in ep. 401 a lot of fans posted then and there about how the show reminding us of all of that meant it would be important later on, at least in the show. And lo and behold it was. So it was set up actually and not without reason.
EDIT: Anyhow, I'm gonna go to sleep momentarily, so I fully expect to awake to a handful of angry retorts to my earlier posts. Which of course I should expect stepping into this thread, where I previously thought I wouldn't bother interjecting again. But some of what was being said required some correcting, I thought. So sorry if that irritates some of y'all unduly. There you have it.
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Post by Admin on Aug 17, 2015 15:22:56 GMT
This I feel like we're missing context with this. The scenes we should have been watching with Stannis should have been his coming around to burning Shireen, instead we have "how dare you suggest burning my daughter!" -> "This cold is inconvenient. The food is low. Don't go and rally the north for aid. Burn my daughter!" That's not what the established stakes were at all. It was made plain that they couldn't move forwards and they couldn't move back. They were stuck and dying off. And it was only us hopefully misreading his scene in ep. 507 that led us to believe that he wasn't considering burning her then. He was and he never said no to Mel in that scene. Rewatch it. He said, "There must be another way." Which is very different from a definitive no. That's more of a "Has it really come to this?" And him sending Mel out and then brooding was actually him considering it. He's angry at Mel of course; he's angry at everything but he's not saying he'll never do it. Actually a lot of Unsullied and reviewers asked after that scene, "Shit will he do it or won't he?" It was mainly people with a positive bias towards him who went, "There, he laid down the gauntlet he won't do it!" But really nothing in that scene suggests that. There really aren't enough words out there that would allow you even coming close to having a small shot at convincing anyone this was anything other than terrible writing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 16:08:31 GMT
What?!?! That's all shit you're reading into this. You can't just say, "I think they thought this, so fuck them for thinking what I think they thought!" That doesn't make sense. I've seen so much of this, "Brienne is ____ to D and D" here, on IMDB and on AFOIAF but, never in anything anyone to do with the show has said has this actually been voiced. Except by fans who angrily read this shit into show events and then claim that was the intent.
Stannis conceded in the show that he murdered Renly. In both ep. 210 and 510 when she came to him. So, it's not revenge in-quotes. It is revenge. Given her oaths to him it is her duty as Stannis, once again, conceded. And he didn't mock her in the show and she did have an oath with him and she did have an out from her vow to Cat specifically if it were for her pursuit of that revenge. All of this was set up. So if she were to come across him, which she did, why wouldn't she kill him? Because his fanbase is over-fond of him? Well, she didn't know that, did she?
No, I just really don't like show Brienne You can check my posts from way before she killed Stannis. Her story is all over the place. Also I'm going more off the books here in case you didn't notice, so you know. But no her show character was a lot different. And I get people like her, to me she was always a boring POV and didn't really do much for me, aside from Stoneheart she bored me. Her and Jaime's povs were probably AFFC worst, but that's just me, I thought AFFC and ADWD were the two worst books, aside from the Ironborn stuff, all talk no pay offs. Which is why I thought Hardhome and skipping Tyrions travels worked better. Again I'm not puritanical about the books, I just never read any of this heroic Brienne, she was always somewhat of a wannabe hero, after all, you know who once nearly killed her? Biter. But I know people like her, and hey, who am I to judge, I'm a fan of a man who is basically a secondary character. So hypocrite much, but screw it. Also when you don't actually know what a persons intentions are, then conclusions are all you have. Brienne was given no real foreshadowing. She said way back in S2, "I will avenge Renly" then nothing for 2 series. You can't leave something that important to the plot for two series without giving her a few lines about how she is aiming to get revenge on Stannis. The whole North storyline was rushed. If we had some scenes in between, like her sat in the inn and hearing that Stannis' army is marching on Winterfell, like way back in episode seven, and Brienne says to Podrick that she will go after Stannis over Sansa, then I would get it, but all that we got was a scene of her watching a window and then walking away. I don't count the scene where her and Pod talk as foreshadowing. She says Stannis murdered Renly, I will avenge him. The whole point of revenge from a viewer standpoint is that it should feel well earned. This didn't. It felt like they just rushed the story, and when you rushed the story and ruin a lot of plotlines and characters people like without any solid story behind it, then no, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say "best finale eva!" Because frankly the northern story this series was a clusterfuck of bad, and aside from Hardhome, this series wasn't really that great. I'm not going to like a character or admit that I find a story good just because the mass of people do, in fact in 90% of stuff I watch, I always prefer the less popular characters over the major ones. I've never been a fan of certain characters, I never will be and I'm not going to concede that Stannis death was fantastic writing because the lack of said writing is what pisses me off more than him dying Agreed with everything but the bolded parts.
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Post by Basil on Aug 17, 2015 16:09:07 GMT
That's not what the established stakes were at all. It was made plain that they couldn't move forwards and they couldn't move back. They were stuck and dying off. And it was only us hopefully misreading his scene in ep. 507 that led us to believe that he wasn't considering burning her then. He was and he never said no to Mel in that scene. Rewatch it. He said, "There must be another way." Which is very different from a definitive no. That's more of a "Has it really come to this?" And him sending Mel out and then brooding was actually him considering it. He's angry at Mel of course; he's angry at everything but he's not saying he'll never do it. Actually a lot of Unsullied and reviewers asked after that scene, "Shit will he do it or won't he?" It was mainly people with a positive bias towards him who went, "There, he laid down the gauntlet he won't do it!" But really nothing in that scene suggests that. So, okay, a question: Melisandre took a little bit of Gendry's Blood without even killing him, and apparently that was enough of a sacrifice for the Lord of Light to guarantee three dead kings. It is really quite irrelevant if that was true magic or not, fact is, Stannis believed it was, so why didn't he force Melisandre to try anything else first, before coming to the conclusion that burning Shireen was his only option? He could have given her some of his own blood or even Shireen's blood for fuck's sake, if he's too much of a coward to make the sacrifice himself. They really failed to establish how high the stakes were, actually. First the Stannis camp was like, hell yeah, we're totally gonna kick some Bolton ass, then Ramsay was like: Do not worry pops, Ser Twenty of House Goodmen and I will take care of the problem ... then some burning tents and horses for ten seconds and Stannis was like, FUCK, prepare the pyre, dudes. Let's burn my only heir and the only person on this planet I genuinely love in the hope that this strange deity, which I'm not even sure exists, will provide us with some food and warm blankets by the means of some vaguely defined magic. I'm not a Stannis fan, I don't particularly like him as a character. But that was bullshit writing and horrible storytelling, imo. I'm sure that if they had wanted to, they could have wrapped up his storyline in a much better, more satisfying and believable way. Show us, and I mean really show us, how high the stakes were, show us a Stannis who's desperate and incredibly torn by this decision. Instead it came across as if Stannis decided to kill his daughter literally at the first little sign of trouble. He didn't consider any alternatives, suddenly and out of nowhere, he completely changed his mind on the subject of sacrificing Shireen, and all because of a few burning tents and horses, because that's all they fucking showed us.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 16:24:32 GMT
I'm not going to talk about Stannis' death anymore, because propably everyone knows my opinion about it.
But I'll talk about Brienne of Tarth.
I never liked her in the show. When I first saw her in the show, my main thought was: "Wait, is this some sort of Thrones trying to add "strong woman trope" to the show?" I hadn't read the books back then. And Show!Brienne is totally a different character than the shy awkward girl from the books.
In the books Brienne is very shy and has a deep crush in Renly. She is unsure about her fighting skills and feels disgusted when killing for the first time (AFfC). Brienne feels sympathy towards Pod and distrust, wisely, many people she meets on the road. Also after fighting Jaime during their escape in ASoS, she later thinks to herself that Jaime could've easily killed her if the Kingslayer wasn't chained.
In the show she isn't so shy. She is a master fighter and a brutal killer, violently killing one man by driving a sword through his balls. But well my favourites flay people, but whatever. She generally bitches to Pod in Seasons 4 and first half of S5 and openly talks about Sansa and Arya. Book Brienne bases her opinions of people largely in those she has heard from Cat. She thinks Tyrion is a vile monster dwarf. And she really has no reason to think that Sansa isn't safe with Littlefinger, who according to her knowledge, was Lady Stark's friend. While in the books Brienne thinks Jaime could've killed her (which btw is true), in the show she just says "Maybe once you were better, but now you're shit", or something to that effect.
I don't feel anything about book Brienne, maybe sympathy. I strongly dislike show Brienne. Her general bitchness, dumbness, "girl power", and boring story arc make her a dislikable character to me. Killing Stannis and calling Renly rightful king only made it stronger. And younger brother isn't the rightful king, no matter how "in love" with him you are.
And tbh I wouldn't be surprised if she kills Theon next season "for betraying the Starks".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 16:29:06 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed.
I have seen few characters to be more darker than in the books.
But I still haven't seen Dany, Jon or Tyrion doing their mistakes. Okay, Dany crucified propably many innocent slavers, but I haven't seen torturing, I didn't see Tyrion feeling really conflicted about killing his dad or being an ass-shat nor did I see Jon making harsh decision to swap the babies or to break his vows to fight Ramsay.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:03:35 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. I have seen few characters to be more darker than in the books. But I still haven't seen Dany, Jon or Tyrion doing their mistakes. Okay, Dany crucified propably many innocent slavers, but I haven't seen torturing, I didn't see Tyrion feeling really conflicted about killing his dad or being an ass-shat nor did I see Jon making harsh decision to swap the babies or to break his vows to fight Ramsay. Dany fed one of the great masters to her dragons just because he might have been guilty.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:08:08 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. I have seen few characters to be more darker than in the books. But I still haven't seen Dany, Jon or Tyrion doing their mistakes. Okay, Dany crucified propably many innocent slavers, but I haven't seen torturing, I didn't see Tyrion feeling really conflicted about killing his dad or being an ass-shat nor did I see Jon making harsh decision to swap the babies or to break his vows to fight Ramsay. Dany fed one of the great masters to her dragons just because he might have been guilty. Ah. I forgot that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:13:41 GMT
No, I just really don't like show Brienne You can check my posts from way before she killed Stannis. Her story is all over the place. Also I'm going more off the books here in case you didn't notice, so you know. But no her show character was a lot different. And I get people like her, to me she was always a boring POV and didn't really do much for me, aside from Stoneheart she bored me. Her and Jaime's povs were probably AFFC worst, but that's just me, I thought AFFC and ADWD were the two worst books, aside from the Ironborn stuff, all talk no pay offs. Which is why I thought Hardhome and skipping Tyrions travels worked better. Again I'm not puritanical about the books, I just never read any of this heroic Brienne, she was always somewhat of a wannabe hero, after all, you know who once nearly killed her? Biter. But I know people like her, and hey, who am I to judge, I'm a fan of a man who is basically a secondary character. So hypocrite much, but screw it. Also when you don't actually know what a persons intentions are, then conclusions are all you have. Brienne was given no real foreshadowing. She said way back in S2, "I will avenge Renly" then nothing for 2 series. You can't leave something that important to the plot for two series without giving her a few lines about how she is aiming to get revenge on Stannis. The whole North storyline was rushed. If we had some scenes in between, like her sat in the inn and hearing that Stannis' army is marching on Winterfell, like way back in episode seven, and Brienne says to Podrick that she will go after Stannis over Sansa, then I would get it, but all that we got was a scene of her watching a window and then walking away. I don't count the scene where her and Pod talk as foreshadowing. She says Stannis murdered Renly, I will avenge him. The whole point of revenge from a viewer standpoint is that it should feel well earned. This didn't. It felt like they just rushed the story, and when you rushed the story and ruin a lot of plotlines and characters people like without any solid story behind it, then no, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say "best finale eva!" Because frankly the northern story this series was a clusterfuck of bad, and aside from Hardhome, this series wasn't really that great. I'm not going to like a character or admit that I find a story good just because the mass of people do, in fact in 90% of stuff I watch, I always prefer the less popular characters over the major ones. I've never been a fan of certain characters, I never will be and I'm not going to concede that Stannis death was fantastic writing because the lack of said writing is what pisses me off more than him dying Actually her debt to Renly was mentioned in both s3 and s4 and, early on, was pretty firmly established in s5. In ep. 302 when Jaime figured out she'd served Renly he first guessed Stannis to which she indignantly replied, "Gods no!" In ep. 401 she brought up the whole affair to Margeary and said to her, "Someday I will avenge our king." Then again in ep. 503 she described the whole of it to Podrick. IMO that very clearly set it up.
Actually after the mention of it all again in ep. 401 a lot of fans posted then and there about how the show reminding us of all of that meant it would be important later on, at least in the show. And lo and behold it was. So it was set up actually and not without reason.
EDIT: Anyhow, I'm gonna go to sleep momentarily, so I fully expect to awake to a handful of angry retorts to my earlier posts. Which of course I should expect stepping into this thread, where I previously thought I wouldn't bother interjecting again. But some of what was being said required some correcting, I thought. So sorry if that irritates some of y'all unduly. There you have it.
The series is presented as fantasy for adults, its writing shouldn't be equivalent to a "fill in the blanks" children's story. Soooooo much is missing. Melissandre believes Stannis is Azor Ahai up until Winterfell, supposedly so does he. Yet he never mentions the war with the white walkers or his supposedly crucial role, his Janos Slynt bitch slapping is cut, the " Demons made of snow and ice and cold. The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters" quote was gone, he never seeks the help of the northerners and don't say because Deepwood Motte, because the Mountain Clans joined his side before that anyway. So basically two options: they wrote themselves into a wall and just decided to get rid of him since they didn't know how to make him work or they said fuck this guy, kill him and give his storyline to someone we like. If they had Tyrion get killed by Dany when he arrived in Mereen, because Dany always says she will kill the Usurper's dogs, such as the Lannisters, then people would be pissed off. That's pretty much the same as this. There were references made, as throw away comments. If Brienne was going to kill Stannis who, going off the show, is a major character, then her story should feel as though it's been leading to that point rather than "oh shit, we're in the same place at the same time. I kill you." The pay off was nonexistent, the writing wasn't there, I'm not filling in the blanks where D&D omitted to include scenes that actually explained what changed his mind rather than saying "well why do you think he burned her? It's all snowy. You know, it gets in people shoes and stuff. His men can march in wet socks!" Anyway, I'm going to stop now, because at no point am I going to change my mind and say this was good. It was bad, totally bad, nothing but bad, ruined my favourite character. "Stannis! Say heeees name! You raybed heeeem, you muddard heeeem! You keeeelled heeees plotline!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:21:12 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. I have seen few characters to be more darker than in the books. But I still haven't seen Dany, Jon or Tyrion doing their mistakes. Okay, Dany crucified propably many innocent slavers, but I haven't seen torturing, I didn't see Tyrion feeling really conflicted about killing his dad or being an ass-shat nor did I see Jon making harsh decision to swap the babies or to break his vows to fight Ramsay. Dany fed one of the great masters to her dragons just because he might have been guilty. I don't mean this in a bad way, but does anyone really care about that? I mean he was just a nameless background character. Most people I know either laughed at it or thought it was badass. Besides, these people crucified children, among other things, so I won't shed any tears for them. I have completely maintained and 100% believe from the second it happened that Shireen was burned by Stannis to prevent anyone from blaming Jon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:45:55 GMT
Dany fed one of the great masters to her dragons just because he might have been guilty. I don't mean this in a bad way, but does anyone really care about that? I mean he was just a nameless background character. Most people I know either laughed at it or thought it was badass. Besides, these people crucified children, among other things, so I won't shed any tears for them. I have completely maintained and 100% believe from the second it happened that Shireen was burned by Stannis to prevent anyone from blaming Jon.Agreed. Btw I don't think you should be sad for that random meereen slaver #26 dying. It's more of a Dany just killing him for basically no reason at all. It's pretty much like Varamyr's father killing all those three dogs, because he didn't know which had killed his son.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 17:59:17 GMT
Dany fed one of the great masters to her dragons just because he might have been guilty. I don't mean this in a bad way, but does anyone really care about that? I mean he was just a nameless background character. Most people I know either laughed at it or thought it was badass. Besides, these people crucified children, among other things, so I won't shed any tears for them. I have completely maintained and 100% believe from the second it happened that Shireen was burned by Stannis to prevent anyone from blaming Jon. probably not but it was none the less a dumb thing to do that they showed her doing that wasn't even in the books.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:50:32 GMT
Feeding innocent guy to a dragon = badass.
Well who am I to speak, I laugh and yell "DIE YOU SHITS, DIE" when playing video games.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 18:55:06 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. No, because there's no reason anyone would blame Jon for that. We have no idea of the context she'll be burned in the books, only theory and supposition but I strongly doubt he'll be awake/alive at the time. So why blame him for that? Even if it's meant to resurrect him, he'd have had no hand in it and likely would be pretty pissed off to find out about it. People are looking for white-washing where it really isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:09:35 GMT
So, okay, a question: Melisandre took a little bit of Gendry's Blood without even killing him, and apparently that was enough of a sacrifice for the Lord of Light to guarantee three dead kings. It is really quite irrelevant if that was true magic or not, fact is, Stannis believed it was, so why didn't he force Melisandre to try anything else first, before coming to the conclusion that burning Shireen was his only option? He could have given her some of his own blood or even Shireen's blood for fuck's sake, if he's too much of a coward to make the sacrifice himself. They really failed to establish how high the stakes were, actually. First the Stannis camp was like, hell yeah, we're totally gonna kick some Bolton ass, then Ramsay was like: Do not worry pops, Ser Twenty of House Goodmen and I will take care of the problem ... then some burning tents and horses for ten seconds and Stannis was like, FUCK, prepare the pyre, dudes. Let's burn my only heir and the only person on this planet I genuinely love in the hope that this strange deity, which I'm not even sure exists, will provide us with some food and warm blankets by the means of some vaguely defined magic. I'm not a Stannis fan, I don't particularly like him as a character. But that was bullshit writing and horrible storytelling, imo. I'm sure that if they had wanted to, they could have wrapped up his storyline in a much better, more satisfying and believable way. Show us, and I mean really show us, how high the stakes were, show us a Stannis who's desperate and incredibly torn by this decision. Instead it came across as if Stannis decided to kill his daughter literally at the first little sign of trouble. He didn't consider any alternatives, suddenly and out of nowhere, he completely changed his mind on the subject of sacrificing Shireen, and all because of a few burning tents and horses, because that's all they fucking showed us. No it wasn't the first sign of trouble. The trouble was set up early on in the season and mounted over the last few epiosdes. The problem of the cold and the weather was built up since ep. 504. Well, since 101 really given all the times we've been reminded "winter is coming". And to your first point, the possibility of leeching WAS addressed. Stannis said, "there must be some other way, leeches or something." So after large swaths of his army left him, he couldn't move north or south due to the weather (Davos said as much, this isn't supposition on my part), horses were dying left and right from the cold. And the attack WAS NOT minor and it was clearly not meant to be minor. It led to widespread destruction and really damaged his offensive capabilities as was set up in dialogue again with Davos. (And guerilla attacks are meant to be conducted by small groups, so this fixation on the number twenty is really stupid btw). And his decision was not out of nowhere. There was a moment in 509 where we saw exactly when he was convinced of it; when after surveying the massive damage on his camp with Davos he walked towards Mel and Selyse and away from his Hand. What they told him then is what at last changed his mind. And it wasn't a few tents and horses. Rewatch the scenes. The stakes were established. It was no flippant decision and the destruction was clearly worse and more serious than you say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:13:49 GMT
Admit it, D&D made Stannis burn Shireen only so Jon couldn't be blamed. No, because there's no reason anyone would blame Jon for that. We have no idea of the context she'll be burned in the books, only theory and supposition but I strongly doubt he'll be awake/alive at the time. So why blame him for that? Even if it's meant to resurrect him, he'd have had no hand in it and likely would be pretty pissed off to find out about it. People are looking for white-washing where it really isn't. Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 19:14:46 GMT
No, because there's no reason anyone would blame Jon for that. We have no idea of the context she'll be burned in the books, only theory and supposition but I strongly doubt he'll be awake/alive at the time. So why blame him for that? Even if it's meant to resurrect him, he'd have had no hand in it and likely would be pretty pissed off to find out about it. People are looking for white-washing where it really isn't. Yes. there's no reason anyone would blame Jon. D&D take their viewers for dumber than they are. That makes absolutely no sense, Roose. Of course it'll get likes but think about that post. That's just projection.
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Post by Admin on Aug 17, 2015 19:15:07 GMT
Oh God, konrad, it would be less painful to read you bending backwards trying to defend them over "bad pussy" line. Because at least this one didn't come out of the blue and was consistent with the slapstick of the storyline.
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