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May 17, 2016 13:20:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 13:20:06 GMT
Really loving your review hardcore there @igrewupinkl !  Thank you btw  i never mean for them to get so long but this is literally the first place i come and just let all my thoughts about the episode out.  I was being sarcastic about Jon btw. I mean he has every right to be disgruntled and emo after being reborn. But i think it took a little too much convincing from Sansa...its like dude even Edd wants to go to winterfell and fight Ramsay  |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 13:24:28 GMT
Really loving your review hardcore there @igrewupinkl ! Thank you btw i never mean for them to get so long but this is literally the first place i come and just let all my thoughts about the episode out. I was being sarcastic about Jon btw. I mean he has every right to be disgruntled and emo after being reborn. But i think it took a little too much convincing from Sansa...its like dude even Edd wants to go to winterfell and fight Ramsay I keep reminding myself that the dude was literally dead just a few days before Sansa arrived and he's being kind of "slow to warm up" again, all puns intended. We the audience are anxious to see him start a new path and take back Winterfell, but the dude is just TIRED. I guess we need to give him a break and let Sansa yank his chain a bit to get him motivated. That nod of agreement he gave her at the end was pretty half-hearted. Have to admit I was a little disappointed. I wanted Jon to come back to life angry, not sad and emo ... that's Dolorous Edd's job and even Edd's being fired up as you said!  |
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May 17, 2016 13:30:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 13:30:58 GMT
Thank you btw i never mean for them to get so long but this is literally the first place i come and just let all my thoughts about the episode out. I was being sarcastic about Jon btw. I mean he has every right to be disgruntled and emo after being reborn. But i think it took a little too much convincing from Sansa...its like dude even Edd wants to go to winterfell and fight Ramsay I keep reminding myself that the dude was literally dead just a few days before Sansa arrived and he's being kind of "slow to warm up" again, all puns intended. We the audience are anxious to see him start a new path and take back Winterfell, but the dude is just TIRED. I guess we need to give him a break and let Sansa yank his chain a bit to get him motivated. That nod of agreement he gave her at the end was pretty half-hearted. Have to admit I was a little disappointed. I wanted Jon to come back to life angry, not sad and emo ... that's Dolorous Edd's job and even Edd's being fired up as you said! Yeh. I dont think Jon knows wtf he is doing at the moment lol. He has been to the otherside and seen nothing so he thinks his whole life has been a lie and it holds no meaning. But i think he will find it on the road to winterfell. I think the nod was an acceptance of what he is going to have to do and is scared by what he may lose this time for doing the right thing. |
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Post by lordcarson on May 17, 2016 15:12:02 GMT
- Death didn't change Jon I completely disagree. Old Jon would have been more than willing to go to war with Ramsay before. Now he's just sick of the world and wants to be at peace, until his family is brought directly into it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 15:18:07 GMT
- Death didn't change Jon I completely disagree. Old Jon would have been more than willing to go to war with Ramsay before. Now he's just sick of the world and wants to be at peace, until his family is brought directly into it. Yup, Jon was a moral idealist and that idealism has been shaken. Now he seems to be in a deep existentialist crisis. He did not become evil, but that's still a huge change and it is definitely affecting his decision making. |
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May 17, 2016 16:18:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 16:18:45 GMT
Vaes Dothrak is still the weak point for me, and given the focus of the episode, it's a crucial issue. The fire scene was directed horribly imo - reminded me of Daznak's Pit but on a (thankfully) smaller scale. It's a perplexing scene: no idea if Dany is meant to come across as badass, villainous or simply deranged (my guess is "badass" but only because they've done this before), but the awkwardness of the staging borders on the comical. But then it was partially redeemed by the shots of the Dothraki helplessly bowing before her. There were a couple of truly beautiful shots there. Guess I'll just take the whole thing as a tribute to Brian De Palma's (awesome) Carrie and move on Oh and the least said about Daario and Jorah, the better. How in the world could that scene be interpreted as her being villainous? Did you hear what the Khals plans for Dany entailed? I don't think it can be seen as anything other than a triumphant moment of a woman besting a bunch of assholes who intended to gang rape and kill her. I can understand minor nitpicking like the fire spreading too fast (although oil in the brazier and what the hut was made from explains that), but I really don't see how it was "awful" or anything even close. We got Emilia speaking Dothraki (always badass), and the final scene of 100k bowing to her was just brilliant. Definitely a call back to her best scene in 1x10. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 17, 2016 16:22:33 GMT
I completely disagree. Old Jon would have been more than willing to go to war with Ramsay before. Now he's just sick of the world and wants to be at peace, until his family is brought directly into it. Yup, Jon was a moral idealist and that idealism has been shaken. Now he seems to be in a deep existentialist crisis. He did not become evil, but that's still a huge change and it is definitely affecting his decision making. Yeah, I found Jon's behavior to be a bit strange at first, but then I realized this is a dude trying to live a little for the first time in his life. And he's a bit awkward about it, understandably. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 17, 2016 16:32:03 GMT
Vaes Dothrak is still the weak point for me, and given the focus of the episode, it's a crucial issue. The fire scene was directed horribly imo - reminded me of Daznak's Pit but on a (thankfully) smaller scale. It's a perplexing scene: no idea if Dany is meant to come across as badass, villainous or simply deranged (my guess is "badass" but only because they've done this before), but the awkwardness of the staging borders on the comical. But then it was partially redeemed by the shots of the Dothraki helplessly bowing before her. There were a couple of truly beautiful shots there. Guess I'll just take the whole thing as a tribute to Brian De Palma's (awesome) Carrie and move on Oh and the least said about Daario and Jorah, the better. How in the world could that scene be interpreted as her being villainous? Did you hear what the Khals plans for Dany entailed? I don't think it can be seen as anything other than a triumphant moment of a woman besting a bunch of assholes who intended to gang rape and kill her. I can understand minor nitpicking like the fire spreading too fast (although oil in the brazier and what the hut was made from explains that), but I really don't see how it was "awful" or anything even close. We got Emilia speaking Dothraki (always badass), and the final scene of 100k bowing to her was just brilliant. Definitely a call back to her best scene in 1x10. Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everywhere she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. |
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May 17, 2016 16:37:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 16:37:17 GMT
How in the world could that scene be interpreted as her being villainous? Did you hear what the Khals plans for Dany entailed? I don't think it can be seen as anything other than a triumphant moment of a woman besting a bunch of assholes who intended to gang rape and kill her. I can understand minor nitpicking like the fire spreading too fast (although oil in the brazier and what the hut was made from explains that), but I really don't see how it was "awful" or anything even close. We got Emilia speaking Dothraki (always badass), and the final scene of 100k bowing to her was just brilliant. Definitely a call back to her best scene in 1x10. Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everyone she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. Yes, I do think we're meant to root for her to lead the Dothraki. I disagree with your assessment that she's failed everywhere she goes. Only time will tell on that one. And plenty of slaves are better off now than before she freed them. At least they no longer have to worry about their children being dipped in honey and thrown to bears for entertainment. Dany is certainly the best option to lead the Dothraki. Without them supplying slaves it could be the final nail in the coffin of the Essos slave trade. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:32:53 GMT
How in the world could that scene be interpreted as her being villainous? Did you hear what the Khals plans for Dany entailed? I don't think it can be seen as anything other than a triumphant moment of a woman besting a bunch of assholes who intended to gang rape and kill her. I can understand minor nitpicking like the fire spreading too fast (although oil in the brazier and what the hut was made from explains that), but I really don't see how it was "awful" or anything even close. We got Emilia speaking Dothraki (always badass), and the final scene of 100k bowing to her was just brilliant. Definitely a call back to her best scene in 1x10. Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everywhere she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. I'm pretty surprised by your poor opinion of the scene but not just that the fire scene was somehow badly directed. I could accept that criticism but saying you don't understand why she did what she did or why you're supposed to root for her? How could that scene be confusing? Just before she was taken in front of these men who will "decide her fate" we hear how the young Khaleesi was married to her Khal at 12 and had her ribs broken for bearing a daughter instead of a son. Does the horrific rape/abuse/property message only make sense if it's Sansa having the same done to her by the monster Ramsay? It's the same exact situation here but on a much larger scale. Women are 'property' to these men, to be used, abused and killed as they see fit. Daenerys' overall theme of hating being 'property' is what motivates her to destroy the entire collective patriarchy in one room. I am the one confused by how often Daenerys seems judged as unfit to rule when no king in Westeros has done half what she's done since her own ancestors ruled. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion of her character and the scene. I am trying to see your perspective (as Varys says) but it's difficult when the scene was fairly specific in motives I thought. They were derisive and insulting ... talking about her as she stood there like a piece of meat - and that was before she even spoke a word. Was she supposed to act submissive to them in order to get sent to the Dosh Khaleen instead of being raped by all of them?  *edited for clarity and civility |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:45:05 GMT
Would just like to remind everyone that everyone else is allowed to have an opinion.
Witchy out.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:47:54 GMT
Would just like to remind everyone that everyone else is allowed to have an opinion. Witchy out. As has been acknowledged in responses. We're also allowed to dispute it if we disagree and are civil. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on May 17, 2016 17:56:42 GMT
Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everywhere she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. I'm pretty surprised by your poor opinion of the scene but not just that the fire scene was somehow badly directed. I could accept that criticism but saying you don't understand why she did what she did or why you're supposed to root for her? How could that scene be confusing? Just before she was taken in front of these men who will "decide her fate" we hear how the young Khaleesi was married to her Khal at 12 and had her ribs broken for bearing a daughter instead of a son. Does the horrific rape/abuse/property message only make sense if it's Sansa having the same done to her by the monster Ramsay? It's the same exact situation here but on a much larger scale. Women are 'property' to these men, to be used, abused and killed as they see fit. Daenerys' overall theme of hating being 'property' is what motivates her to destroy the entire collective patriarchy in one room. This looks villainous or insane to you? I never hear the same sorts of criticisms on leadership about any other character in the show the way I often do about Daenerys. How she is not fit to lead because of her multiple "failures" yet here is one small person who consistently bests men, cities and armies multiple times over. It's baffling really why she is judged so strangely when no king in Westeros has done half what she's done since her own ancestors ruled. Yes I get it she's a 'divisive character' but I would think that division would be over realistic expectations. It seems Daenerys hate will always be over judgements I fail to understand people making. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion of her character but if you didn't even understand the reason she destroyed the Khals... it's a little difficult to respect that. Was she supposed to act submissive to them in order to get sent to the Dosh Khaleen instead of being raped by all of them? Was that the intended outcome you expected? I think Dany is enjoyable precisely because you can read her a number of ways. She's certainly no saint and that makes her an interesting character. To me, she clearly has issues, feeling a constant need to show her strength, listing her ten thousand titles that are supposed to assign her an imaginary worth, etc. All of this stuff enrichen the character. I'm not "Dany hating". My hate is reserved for Littlefinger  Of course the khals are douchebag rapists, etc. I didn't intend for her to be sent to the Dosh Khaleen. Whether they all deserved to die in a little fire holocaust, well.... who am I to say? We knew a "fire and blood" scene was coming up, I just would have liked a little more insight into her state of mind going into it. What I get out of it is that she's still going around thinking she can improve entire cultures while then using those very people to mindlessly glorify her (intentionally or not). She is a wildly dangerous character who can use her powers for good with good counsel - but tends to go off the deep end when left to her own devices. This is my reading of it and it's not meant to be remotely offensive. Look, my favorite characters at the moment are probably Mel and the High Sparrow and they are as awfully flawed as they get |
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May 17, 2016 17:57:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:57:18 GMT
Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everywhere she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. I'm pretty surprised by your poor opinion of the scene but not just that the fire scene was somehow badly directed. I could accept that criticism but saying you don't understand why she did what she did or why you're supposed to root for her? How could that scene be confusing? Just before she was taken in front of these men who will "decide her fate" we hear how the young Khaleesi was married to her Khal at 12 and had her ribs broken for bearing a daughter instead of a son. Does the horrific rape/abuse/property message only make sense if it's Sansa having the same done to her by the monster Ramsay? It's the same exact situation here but on a much larger scale. Women are 'property' to these men, to be used, abused and killed as they see fit. Daenerys' overall theme of hating being 'property' is what motivates her to destroy the entire collective patriarchy in one room. This looks villainous or insane to you? I never hear the same sorts of criticisms on leadership about any other character in the show the way I often do about Daenerys. How she is not fit to lead because of her multiple "failures" yet here is one small person who consistently bests men, cities and armies multiple times over. It's baffling really why she is judged so strangely when no king in Westeros has done half what she's done since her own ancestors ruled. Yes I get it she's a 'divisive character' but I would think that division would be over realistic expectations. It seems Daenerys hate will always be over judgements I fail to understand people making. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion of her character but if you didn't even understand the reason she destroyed the Khals... it's a little difficult to respect that. Was she supposed to act submissive to them in order to get sent to the Dosh Khaleen instead of being raped by all of them? Was that the intended outcome you expected?  |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 17:58:46 GMT
Would just like to remind everyone that everyone else is allowed to have an opinion. Witchy out. Nobody has been offensive or out of line. |
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Post by Nezzer on May 17, 2016 17:59:09 GMT
Didn't say the whole scene was awful - only that the fire bits were directed very poorly. There are details about the scene I enjoyed. And yes, I think the scene is tonally very confused. Am I supposed to root for a woman who has calculated the murder of these people (morons that they are) well in advance, no matter what they actually say? Or who actively mocks them to get a reaction from them? Or the woman who somehow thinks she is fit to lead the Dothraki after failing literally everywhere she goes? Why? I'm not impressed by anything she does in the episode but that's not the underlying issue. The issue is that the directing and writing confuse things even further. She alternatively seems like a demon, a hero and a madwoman - maybe it's meant to be all 3 but it's impossible to tell. I loved the big Dany scenes in 110 and 304. Didn't like 509 and 604. She's a divisive character with divisive scenes, that's just the nature of the beast. I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I can understand why even though I don't share the sentiment. I'm pretty surprised by your poor opinion of the scene but not just that the fire scene was somehow badly directed. I could accept that criticism but saying you don't understand why she did what she did or why you're supposed to root for her? How could that scene be confusing? Just before she was taken in front of these men who will "decide her fate" we hear how the young Khaleesi was married to her Khal at 12 and had her ribs broken for bearing a daughter instead of a son. Does the horrific rape/abuse/property message only make sense if it's Sansa having the same done to her by the monster Ramsay? It's the same exact situation here but on a much larger scale. Women are 'property' to these men, to be used, abused and killed as they see fit. Daenerys' overall theme of hating being 'property' is what motivates her to destroy the entire collective patriarchy in one room. This looks villainous or insane to you? I never hear the same sorts of criticisms on leadership about any other character in the show the way I often do about Daenerys. How she is not fit to lead because of her multiple "failures" yet here is one small person who consistently bests men, cities and armies multiple times over. It's baffling really why she is judged so strangely when no king in Westeros has done half what she's done since her own ancestors ruled. Yes I get it she's a 'divisive character' but I would think that division would be over realistic expectations. It seems Daenerys hate will always be over judgements I fail to understand people making. Everyone's certainly entitled to an opinion of her character but if you didn't even understand the reason she destroyed the Khals... it's a little difficult to respect that. Was she supposed to act submissive to them in order to get sent to the Dosh Khaleen instead of being raped by all of them? Was that the intended outcome you expected? I think the problem with Dany's story is that she doesn't have well developed, recurring antagonists. It depends on a villain-of-the-week formula, with cartoon villains nobody cares about that are one dimensional and always underestimate her, and then she defeats them without taking any losses. The stakes are too low. There's no recurring antagonist, no personal element to the conflicts she faces, no real drama. She had never met any of those dothraki before, and they never did anything to her before, just now that they were threatening her. This is why I and many others are not so interested in her storyline and why her big moments fall short to us. |
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Post by Admin on May 17, 2016 18:03:17 GMT
Do I have to stop my psychotic cross referencing Gwendoline, Danielx2 and Nikolaj's tweets from October and get involved in whatever is happening here?  |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:03:33 GMT
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4jrtrw/spoilers_everything_danys_dramatic_moment_in/
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May 17, 2016 18:04:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:04:25 GMT
Do I have to stop my psychotic cross referencing Gwendoline, Danielx2 and Nikolaj's tweets from October and get involved in whatever is happening here? There's nothing but civil debate going on. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:07:48 GMT
I think Dany is enjoyable precisely because you can read her a number of ways. She's certainly no saint and that makes her an interesting character. To me, she clearly has issues, feeling a constant need to show her strength, listing her ten thousand titles that are supposed to assign her an imaginary worth, etc. All of this stuff enrichen the character. I'm not "Dany hating". My hate is reserved for Littlefinger Of course the khals are douchebag rapists, etc. I didn't intend for her to be sent to the Dosh Khaleen. Whether they all deserved to die in a little fire holocaust, well.... who am I to say? We knew a "fire and blood" scene was coming up, I just would have liked a little more insight into her state of mind going into it. What I get out of it is that she's still going around thinking she can improve entire cultures while then using those very people to mindlessly glorify her (intentionally or not). She is a wildly dangerous character who can use her powers for good with good counsel - but tends to go off the deep end when left to her own devices. This is my reading of it and it's not meant to be remotely offensive. Look, my favorite characters at the moment are probably Mel and the High Sparrow and they are as awfully flawed as they get This I can respect as a valid opinion about her character in relation to the scene's motivation. Just wanted to say I edited my original reply to be less harpy about the overall character judgements on Daenerys because that's been beaten to death many times over and I shouldn't have dragged that much larger can of worms into it. We could debate for hours about her 'theme' and character flaws as has been done for years on westeros.org but I prefer sticking to the scene at hand in the show especially since it doesn't occur (yet) in the books anyways. I agree Daenerys is unpredictable, particularly when she has to act alone. This scene however, I think warranted her plan and that she got Jorah/Daario and the young widow Khaleesi to help was a risk on her part but clever. She could have just disappeared with Jorah and Daario and hoped they made it out of the city before the other Dosh Khaleen put out the warning cry she had gone missing but that would have meant no army... no moment of victory over yet another "injustice" that Dany is constantly obsessed with. The little widow's tale was meant to get to Dany's heart, the same as the slave children did, and Missandei, and all of the "children" who are innocents and brutally used/abused so much by both the Dothraki and the slavers. Ultimately we know it's a losing situation. It's like trying to hold back the tide. |
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i never mean for them to get so long but this is literally the first place i come and just let all my thoughts about the episode out. 
