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Post by mattpeto on Mar 17, 2016 15:10:19 GMT
Another supposedly cheap shock value in this story was of course Stannis burning Shireen. I can see why people didn't like how it was done, because again it defies expectations. Surely the father who loves his only daughter would not burn her to death. That's because the trope of a parent sacrificing their child for the greater good or a deity is extremely old and never rarely ends like this instance here. One of the oldest stories is of course the story of Abraham almost killing his son Isaac. There are a lot of parallels and these parallels are not coincidental. In both cases, we have a chosen one (Stannis and Abraham) who has to sacrifice his child (Shireen and Isaac) for a God (R'hllor and Jahwe). Both stories end differently, though. Jahwe saves Isaac by stopping Abraham. R'hllor, however, is ruthless or possibly doesn't even exist. In GoT the "chosen one" cannot hand over his responsibility to a deity, because in the end he alone killed his own flesh and blood. The God that made him do it doesn't exist and even if he does (which is ambiguous in GoT), the responsibility still lies with Stannis. Shireen died because of Stannis. Again, expectations are shattered, but not for shock value, but in order to achieve a deeper understanding of what we as viewers foolishly expect. Nevertheless, it is absolutely understandable why this would alienate a lot of people. It's very uncomfortable and I confess I often have my problems with it as well, but IMO it's also extremely fascinating storytelling.  That's why I'm not too quick to judge Rickon's possible death in S6. In a perverted way, Stannis burning Shireen worked. Melisandre was right, burning Shireen cleared their path to the battle. And Mel saw the Bolton banners in Wintefell. That's coming. What Stannis and Mel failed to realize that burning your daughter caused his loyal followers to doubt him and leave him. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 15:18:54 GMT
Another supposedly cheap shock value in this story was of course Stannis burning Shireen. I can see why people didn't like how it was done, because again it defies expectations. Surely the father who loves his only daughter would not burn her to death. That's because the trope of a parent sacrificing their child for the greater good or a deity is extremely old and never rarely ends like this instance here. One of the oldest stories is of course the story of Abraham almost killing his son Isaac. There are a lot of parallels and these parallels are not coincidental. In both cases, we have a chosen one (Stannis and Abraham) who has to sacrifice his child (Shireen and Isaac) for a God (R'hllor and Jahwe). Both stories end differently, though. Jahwe saves Isaac by stopping Abraham. R'hllor, however, is ruthless or possibly doesn't even exist. In GoT the "chosen one" cannot hand over his responsibility to a deity, because in the end he alone killed his own flesh and blood. The God that made him do it doesn't exist and even if he does (which is ambiguous in GoT), the responsibility still lies with Stannis. Shireen died because of Stannis. Again, expectations are shattered, but not for shock value, but in order to achieve a deeper understanding of what we as viewers foolishly expect. Nevertheless, it is absolutely understandable why this would alienate a lot of people. It's very uncomfortable and I confess I often have my problems with it as well, but IMO it's also extremely fascinating storytelling. That's why I'm not too quick to judge Rickon's possible death in S6. In a perverted way, Stannis burning Shireen worked. Melisandre was right, burning Shireen cleared their path to the battle. And Mel saw the Bolton banners in Wintefell. That's coming. What Stannis and Mel failed to realize that burning your daughter caused his loyal followers to doubt him and leave him. And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 15:23:08 GMT
In a perverted way, Stannis burning Shireen worked. Melisandre was right, burning Shireen cleared their path to the battle. And Mel saw the Bolton banners in Wintefell. That's coming. What Stannis and Mel failed to realize that burning your daughter caused his loyal followers to doubt him and leave him. And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? Joined the Bolton? Vanished into thin air.. ? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 15:23:55 GMT
In a perverted way, Stannis burning Shireen worked. Melisandre was right, burning Shireen cleared their path to the battle. And Mel saw the Bolton banners in Wintefell. That's coming. What Stannis and Mel failed to realize that burning your daughter caused his loyal followers to doubt him and leave him. And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? Either Belfast or back to the Free Cities. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 15:28:00 GMT
And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? Either Belfast or back to the Free Cities. How would they get back to Essos? They're in a foreing land, in a snowy territory they've never been in. Also tens of thousands men can't just disappear without anyone knowing. |
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Mar 17, 2016 15:31:12 GMT
And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? Either Belfast or back to the Free Cities. Idt Belfast and Essos exist in the same world. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 17, 2016 15:58:47 GMT
I seem to remember people saying stuff like "they would never burn a screaming, innocent child" last year. I think all bets are off when it comes to who gets killed and/or tortured or flayed. Unless that someone is writers' fav. Which Rickon ain't  |
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Post by janicia on Mar 17, 2016 16:08:14 GMT
And 9 months later, one thing is still bugging me. Where the fuck did those deserted sellswords go? Presumably to a port - probably a different one from the one beyond the Wall where they entered the north. From a port, they could buy passage on ships back to Essos. Or maybe they went south and joined LF on his way north. There is a logic to that. Deserting in the middle of the Northern winter is a bad idea unless you have assurances from another army that you can join up with them. Or maybe Manderly ate them offscreen.  But sure, it is a bit of a plot hole. GoT as a show has never attempted an accurate depiction of army logistics or travel. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 16:09:01 GMT
How would they get back to Essos? They're in a foreing land, in a snowy territory they've never been in. Also tens of thousands men can't just disappear without anyone knowing. I have no idea, but they had to somewhere. Maybe they randomly show up at Snowbowl on the Boltons side. Ninja'd by janicia, who had a much better answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 16:14:43 GMT
Either Belfast or back to the Free Cities. Idt Belfast and Essos exist in the same world. The Paint Hall contains all life. And all love. |
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Post by Belle on Mar 17, 2016 16:49:14 GMT
Isn't killing a Stark every now and then getting a bit repetitive? If I think about it, killing Rickon this early wouldn't really make any sense. Like the kid has done nothing yet. ugh i completely agree. the bleakness and cheap shocks of the show are just exhausting at this point |
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Post by Belle on Mar 17, 2016 16:54:29 GMT
I obviously don't want Rickon to die, because he is a Stark and directly related to my favourite characters. And I also really liked him in all his scenes in the first three seasons. However, we have no idea what role he is going to play in the next season, nor do we know how he will be reintroduced and how - if at all - he dies. So even if he has a death scene, it is way too early to assess and criticise it and say it's only for cheap shock value (a category I'm not even sure can be applied to this show). Besides, the theory that Rickon is just a "shaggydog" is older than the show itself, because it is actually based on the novels. This may very well be a GRRM idea. The tendency to say that everything bad is a D&D invention, and everything good must be from the books is a style of argumentation I'm dreading, because it has no basis whatsoever and has very little to do with actual fair criticism. its not about everything "bad" being a D&D invention, but more that when D&D write something fucked up, they write it thinking about how they'll get the most shocking!!!!!! youtube reactions. while when GRRM writes something fucked up or shocking or whatever, its borne more organically out of the story and character development. like i'm not completely ruling out rickon dying in the books, its just that if it happens i expect it to be more compelling than when it happens on the show. the show's version may be more omg shocking!!!!!!! but it will also feel more hollow imo. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 17:23:08 GMT
I obviously don't want Rickon to die, because he is a Stark and directly related to my favourite characters. And I also really liked him in all his scenes in the first three seasons. However, we have no idea what role he is going to play in the next season, nor do we know how he will be reintroduced and how - if at all - he dies. So even if he has a death scene, it is way too early to assess and criticise it and say it's only for cheap shock value (a category I'm not even sure can be applied to this show). Besides, the theory that Rickon is just a "shaggydog" is older than the show itself, because it is actually based on the novels. This may very well be a GRRM idea. The tendency to say that everything bad is a D&D invention, and everything good must be from the books is a style of argumentation I'm dreading, because it has no basis whatsoever and has very little to do with actual fair criticism. its not about everything "bad" being a D&D invention, but more that when D&D write something fucked up, they write it thinking about how they'll get the most shocking!!!!!! youtube reactions. while when GRRM writes something fucked up or shocking or whatever, its borne more organically out of the story and character development. like i'm not completely ruling out rickon dying in the books, its just that if it happens i expect it to be more compelling than when it happens on the show. the show's version may be more omg shocking!!!!!!! but it will also feel more hollow imo. You really think they use that many exclamation points? |
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Post by Belle on Mar 17, 2016 17:41:54 GMT
its not about everything "bad" being a D&D invention, but more that when D&D write something fucked up, they write it thinking about how they'll get the most shocking!!!!!! youtube reactions. while when GRRM writes something fucked up or shocking or whatever, its borne more organically out of the story and character development. like i'm not completely ruling out rickon dying in the books, its just that if it happens i expect it to be more compelling than when it happens on the show. the show's version may be more omg shocking!!!!!!! but it will also feel more hollow imo. You really think they use that many exclamation points? nah they probably use more tbh with how cheap with some of the shocks on this show now are also way to completely avoid the point |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Mar 17, 2016 18:01:11 GMT
Ramsay killing Rickon would also fit the statement that Ramsay would do worse things this season than he did in past seasons. I don't remember if Rheon himself said that, but it's definitely something I heard. It is a tricky thing, to be sure. I don't think we need another gross death like Oberyn's, much less with a child. But let's face it.... there will never, ever be a fully satisfying battle in the GOT world because that goes against GRRM's conception. So even if Jon and Sansa win the Snowbowl, the outcome is sure to be terribly gruesome. It's the same thing with Cleganeblow.... like that will end well. We should all accept our masochism What's this about Osha dying, though? Osha wasn't mentioned by the Redditer I found yesterday as far as I know. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 18:02:56 GMT
Ramsay killing Rickon would also fit the statement that Ramsay would do worse things this season than he did in past seasons. I don't remember if Rheon himself said that, but it's definitely something I heard. It is a tricky thing, to be sure. I don't think we need another gross death like Oberyn's, much less with a child. But let's face it.... there will never, ever be a fully satisfying battle in the GOT world because that goes against GRRM's conception. So even if Jon and Sansa win the Snowbowl, the outcome is sure to be terribly gruesome. It's the same thing with Cleganeblow.... like that will end well. We should all accept our masochism What's this about Osha dying, though? Osha wasn't mentioned by the Redditer I found yesterday as far as I know. That was mentioned by the one Nezzer and I were talking about last week IIRC. |
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Post by archiechvyalthan on Mar 17, 2016 18:09:22 GMT
Ramsay killing Rickon would also fit the statement that Ramsay would do worse things this season than he did in past seasons. I don't remember if Rheon himself said that, but it's definitely something I heard. It is a tricky thing, to be sure. I don't think we need another gross death like Oberyn's, much less with a child. But let's face it.... there will never, ever be a fully satisfying battle in the GOT world because that goes against GRRM's conception. So even if Jon and Sansa win the Snowbowl, the outcome is sure to be terribly gruesome. It's the same thing with Cleganeblow.... like that will end well. We should all accept our masochism What's this about Osha dying, though? Osha wasn't mentioned by the Redditer I found yesterday as far as I know. That was mentioned by the one Nezzer and I were talking about last week IIRC. Ah, OK. Well hopefully that one was a fake. Rickon's death obviously increases the chances of Osha's death, but hopefully GRRM's infatuation with Natalia Tena means a larger role for her in the future. |
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Post by breakfest on Mar 17, 2016 18:38:45 GMT
You really think they use that many exclamation points? nah they probably use more tbh with how cheap with some of the shocks on this show now are also way to completely avoid the point A bit like how you avoided the whole point of Kairos' post. Your whole reply basically amounted to 'no you're wrong it is shock value but i'm not going to provide any basis of evidence for this opinion'. |
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Post by Nezzer on Mar 17, 2016 18:41:55 GMT
nah they probably use more tbh with how cheap with some of the shocks on this show now are also way to completely avoid the point A bit like how you avoided the whole point of Kairos' post. Your whole reply basically amounted to 'no you're wrong it is shock value but i'm not going to provide any basis of evidence for this opinion'. That new avatar... |
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Post by Admin on Mar 17, 2016 18:43:30 GMT
nah they probably use more tbh with how cheap with some of the shocks on this show now are also way to completely avoid the point A bit like how you avoided the whole point of Kairos' post. Your whole reply basically amounted to 'no you're wrong it is shock value but i'm not going to provide any basis of evidence for this opinion'.  |
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That's why I'm not too quick to judge Rickon's possible death in S6. 
