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Post by Basil on Oct 15, 2015 0:22:50 GMT
I personally think the Others aren't necessarily evil. There might be more to them than we know.
George has shown us for five books the futility of war - and that they often end in huge tragedy for both sides, so I just don't believe a war against the Others from which our heroes emerge victorious is how George plans to end his story. I've no idea of course, but it would strike me as strange if suddenly, ASoIaF would turn into a good vs. evil story like LotR.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Oct 15, 2015 1:32:16 GMT
ooh i don't have time now but will post something later. I basically think a running theme in GRRM's boks is that prophecies shouldn't necessarily be trusted. Just because Dany fit some AAR criteria that doesn't mean she'll be the hero. I just think she will dominate because she has drogon and dragon fire will kill them. I think somehow, bran will be the 'ice' side hero somehow. @envie I think Bran is his era's version of the Last Hero. Old Nan was telling about him seeking out the children of the forest before Robb interrupted her. I also think the hero in her story went on to become Brandon the Builder (builder of Winterfell and the Wall), since the founding of the Night's Watch had to do with the end of the Long Night and I think the building of Winterfell was also related to that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 10:57:48 GMT
Wow that was an amazing read. I completely agree with it! i see dany and bran more as vessels of the two types of magic rather than heroes fulfilling a prophecy.
So jon will be the one to balance everything out? i mean this idea has been around for a while i think. And i think its basically right. I see jon being resurrected and first trying to defeat the boltons in winterfell to secure the castle. then he'll turn his attention to protecting the people of the north for the imminent threat of the white walkers. i think when Dany comes North he won't see the dragons as good things either, but he'll know he'll need them to destroy the walkers or create a balance.
I like that he talked about the weather because i always thought this was odd, and if i can recall the world book said there were once even seasons. I've thought that Asshai was the center for some terrible fire event and this happened probably around the same time the long night began/ended thousands of years ago. i don't know exactly how they are connected but i think they are.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 11:14:56 GMT
Wow that was an amazing read. I completely agree with it! i see dany and bran more as vessels of the two types of magic rather than heroes fulfilling a prophecy. So jon will be the one to balance everything out? i mean this idea has been around for a while i think. And i think its basically right. I see jon being resurrected and first trying to defeat the boltons in winterfell to secure the castle. then he'll turn his attention to protecting the people of the north for the imminent threat of the white walkers. i think when Dany comes North he won't see the dragons as good things either, but he'll know he'll need them to destroy the walkers or create a balance. I like that he talked about the weather because i always thought this was odd, and if i can recall the world book said there were once even seasons. I've thought that Asshai was the center for some terrible fire event and this happened probably around the same time the long night began/ended thousands of years ago. i don't know exactly how they are connected but i think they are. The more I think about it the more the seasons/weather thing definitely plays a part in the bigger picture. I mean we already knew the seasons were off so the balance in this world has been for awhile. Oddly enough - I just started reading the The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and in the very first chapter Dunk is remembering tales of the last dragons and it says "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler" ... so there's got to be some tie-in for the dragons too not just the Others/White Walkers. Dany bringing the dragons to Westeros has to account for another shift in the balance of the magic, the ice and fire equation. Jon definitely seems to be the best candidate for balancing between the ice and fire. Daenerys is all fire, and let's face it, she's a conqueror not a diplomat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 11:23:47 GMT
The more I think about it the more the seasons/weather thing definitely plays a part in the bigger picture. I mean we already knew the seasons were off so the balance in this world has been for awhile. Oddly enough - I just started reading the The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and in the very first chapter Dunk is remembering tales of the last dragons and it says "The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler" ... so there's got to be some tie-in for the dragons too not just the Others/White Walkers. Dany bringing the dragons to Westeros has to account for another shift in the balance of the magic, the ice and fire equation. Jon definitely seems to be the best candidate for balancing between the ice and fire. Daenerys is all fire, and let's face it, she's a conqueror not a diplomat. ooohhh i really want to read that. I think in book 1 when they say it has been a long summer, this is probably because large support for R'hllor has reached a peak maybe? and then no surprise the birth of the dragons at the end of the longest summer for a long time? there's definitely no coincidence here. And i think when the dragons died the white walkers could gather strength again, which has finally lead to this long winter that is approaching. I think the ice/fire thing applies to the whole planetos, thats why i think things in asshai could effect the lands of always winter. Yeh Dany is all fire, she tries but is not as good as jon in negotiating imo. I have no idea about Bran though. I think he may be the key to defeating the Others. The starks might somehow be related to a pact with the Others 8000 years ago, but Bran grew up with Ned. An honourable man, and he learnt rights and wrongs i thinkg he wont forget and will come in handy
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Post by day dreamer on Oct 15, 2015 17:25:52 GMT
I always liked Tyrion's thought on the prophecy - "It's like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head" Every time I think I'm set on one ASOIAF theory, another one comes along that that throws me off. I think Dany is the closest thing to AA's story, but like others, I think Jon will be the one to balance everything out between ice and Dany's fire. Bran being his generation's version of the last hero, I absolutely buy into that. I've always thought he would do something very important.
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Post by kingeomer on Oct 15, 2015 17:38:17 GMT
I like this theory. Jon as the instrument that restores balance between Ice (Bran) and Fire (Dany). It might be Jon might have to get them to work together to perhaps end the battle, a battle or defeat the common "enemy"...I put enemy in quotes because I also like what Basil said about the others not necessarily being evil. I like Bran being his era's version of the last hero 7timesdamnedshewolf...I always thought, like others, Bran has an very important role to play. GRRM did not name him Brandon for kicks. I always thought the last POV we'll read in the series is Bran's.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 18:09:18 GMT
Bran will be in the side of Ww.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 18:21:03 GMT
About the Others not being evil, I hope we learn more about them this season. What makes them tick, their motivations, etc. Some quiet time with them.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Oct 15, 2015 22:43:44 GMT
I think arguing talking about whether the Others are evil or not is kinda a moot point. We know they can turn Craster's babies into white walkers, but I'd think unturned humans would be lesser beings to them, the way humans would think of animals. There's nothing evil from their PoV about killing humans and turning their corpses into meat puppets.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 22:52:58 GMT
I think arguing talking about whether the Others are evil or not is kinda a moot point. We know they can turn Craster's babies into white walkers, but I'd think unturned humans would be lesser beings to them, the way humans would think of animals. There's nothing evil from their PoV about killing humans and turning their corpses into meat puppets. I guess 'evil' is from the perspective of the humans being turned into undead since that's the side of the story we're being told from the point of views of those experiencing it. Seems pretty evil to me even if they have a bigger reason/motivation for doing so. Sure, one could argue the humans broke whatever "deal" was made thousands of years ago but does that justify the level of mass murder we're seeing take place? I don't think so. I also don't think R'hllor/Fire God burning of innocents is anymore justified from that side of the Ice and Fire fence either! Much as it seems the Gods in Greek Mythology were often doing terrible/cruel things to mortals in their eternal struggle for domination over one another, I attribute a lot of the ASOIAF story to that same sort of manipulation and suffering. Does that make them "evil" or just omnipotent threats to humankind's existence? That's pretty evil when you're the humans facing the apocalypse.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Oct 15, 2015 23:07:03 GMT
I think arguing talking about whether the Others are evil or not is kinda a moot point. We know they can turn Craster's babies into white walkers, but I'd think unturned humans would be lesser beings to them, the way humans would think of animals. There's nothing evil from their PoV about killing humans and turning their corpses into meat puppets. I guess 'evil' is from the perspective of the humans being turned into undead since that's the side of the story we're being told from the point of views of those experiencing it. Seems pretty evil to me even if they have a bigger reason/motivation for doing so. Sure, one could argue the humans broke whatever "deal" was made thousands of years ago but does that justify the level of mass murder we're seeing take place? I don't think so. I also don't think R'hllor/Fire God burning of innocents is anymore justified from that side of the Ice and Fire fence either! Much as it seems the Gods in Greek Mythology were often doing terrible/cruel things to mortals in their eternal struggle for domination over one another, I attribute a lot of the ASOIAF story to that same sort of manipulation and suffering. Does that make them "evil" or just omnipotent threats to humankind's existence? That's pretty evil when you're the humans facing the apocalypse. Yes, evil from the humans' pov, no question, but I'm saying the Others don't need to be misunderstood to not be just Evil enemies who hate goodness and love meanness, such qualities wouldn't enter into it for them. The old school gods are a good comparison, because none of them were benevolent but not really considered Evil. I also don't think Mel is evil for burning people alive, but that's a whole different discussion about evil actions vs. evil souls.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 14:21:26 GMT
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