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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 4:54:54 GMT
What's your favorite theory (or best guess) as to how the whole Song of Ice and Fire story ends? We've all heard and read a lot of theories and everyone has a favorite - or least favorite Azor Ahai theory too. Just read this over on WotW and really like it. In fact it's closest in line to what I have often thought about in regards to Dany and Jon Snow and their roles in the overall story/prophecy. Daenerys being Azor Ahai is not really the good thing many might think especially if they're not Daenerys fans. If you are one (like me) this is where the 'bittersweet ending' thing GRRM has teased with comes into play because I think between her and Jon Snow ... someone's going to suffer for this ending. What do you think? watchersonthewall.com/topic/about-jon-snow-not-being-azor-ahai/*Note: If there's already a thread like this, I didn't find it (or didn't look very well) so point me to the right one and I'll delete this one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 4:58:45 GMT
I think Bran will be the main player when all is said and done.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 4:59:47 GMT
I think Bran will be the main player when all is said and done. So does the author of that essay I linked on WotW, did you read it? What do you think of his theory?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 5:04:54 GMT
I think Bran will be the main player when all is said and done. So does the author of that essay I linked on WotW, did you read it? What do you think of his theory? Haven't read it yet. Just something I've thought since finishing the books. I'll go check out the article.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 5:10:50 GMT
I think @fireandblood and a few others here would enjoy that theory from WotW too as I know F&B in particular doesn't like the idea of "Jon Snooze" being AA or a dragonrider, etc. I never really have either, but until recently (Hardhome really clinched it for me) I wasn't sure exactly what importance Jon would play in the overall story. Now I do think I know and so does the guy who wrote that theory. It really fits Jon Snow's story best as does Dany's role on the opposite end.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 5:16:47 GMT
Do you think Dany is AA?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 5:36:36 GMT
After reading that theory I think it's very possible that Jon's destiny is to find balance between R’hllor & The Great Other and if that's really the case then Dany being AAR instead of Jon wouldn't surprise me. I think they could be leaning towards this in the show introducing Kinvara as another red priestess, who could be more important later on.
Edit: Something that I also remember is that it took Azor Ahai three times to create Lightbringer and Dany's dragons were born after the three deaths (Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri) Hm. This theory would also show that AAR and TPTWP are not the same person with Dany being one and Jon being the other.
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Post by 7timesdamnedshewolf on Oct 14, 2015 6:26:16 GMT
The guy lost me when he started to relate it all to why the seasons are fucked up. I really don't think there's meant to be an in-universe explanation for all that, it's just an idea Martin thought was cool. I also don't think any gods are going to be confirmed as existing and directly influencing things. Also have a big sideeye to his instinctive spec that Jon will have to kill Bran.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 6:29:38 GMT
I don't think she's reincarnated Azor Ahai, no. I don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally that someone would 'come back' like Jesus or whatever. I think she will be the closest thing to the prophecy's outcome though because she's the one who will end up doing the things that need to be done from a political aspect. For better or worse (and probably a lot on the worse side), Dany has the bloodline and the dragons to do as her ancestors have done. It doesn't make her a hero but it makes her the best candidate to get the job done once the reality of the situation becomes clear. That's why I have always believed she needed to get to Westeros with those dragons just when everything is in chaos because that's when her dragons work best and she has been in these situations for a long time. She knows what she has to do and has faced sorrow, betrayal, loss and defeat but continued to keep going on the course she knows she has to take. After reading that theory I think it's very possible that Jon's destiny is to find balance between R’hllor & The Great Other and if that's really the case then Dany being AAR instead of Jon wouldn't surprise me. I think they could be leaning towards this in the show introducing Kinvara as another red priestess, who could be more important later on. Edit: Something that I also remember is that it took Azor Ahai three times to create Lightbringer and Dany's dragons were born after the three deaths (Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri) Hm. This theory would also show that AAR and TPTWP are not the same person with Dany being one and Jon being the other. There are a lot of things in Dany's story that point to her matching the AA theory best, moreso than Jon Snow. Again, it doesn't make her the great hero - in fact at this point I don't think being Azor Ahai (or the symbolism of it) is really something you should want for any of your favorite characters. Everyone thinks Jon Snow should be AA or sit the Iron Throne but honestly neither of those things are good outcomes for him and probably won't be good outcomes for Dany in the long run. The guy who wrote that theory made that really clear and it's really the message I've been trying to get across to people when I debate it for years. It's just not the hero theme you think it is so don't wish it on your favorite character! I'm resolved if Daenerys ends up dying in the end for this ... or if Jon's involvement from the outside enables the success too but at a heavy price. I do think there will be a sacrifice for that success at the end - whether that's Bran, Jon, Dany or even Arya, I'm prepared for that inevitable bittersweet end.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 6:32:51 GMT
The guy lost me when he started to relate it all to why the seasons are fucked up. I really don't think there's meant to be an in-universe explanation for all that, it's just an idea Martin thought was cool. I also don't think any gods are going to be confirmed as existing and directly influencing things. Also have a big sideeye to his instinctive spec that Jon will have to kill Bran. I didn't put a lot of weight on the seasons/Gods explanation. That's an aside really - seems he got somewhat distracted from his main point and theory by that at the start of it. The latter half of the theory is more what I'm interested in. I actually would not be surprised if one of the 'main' characters ends up having to die to make the ending happen as I said in my previous post - there's probably going to be a death at the very end that pulls the whole thing together. It could be Bran, or really any of them we think are the main focus. I don't really think there's one true hero of the ending. PS: I have often thought perhaps Jon Snow ends up passing his breath of life on to someone else to save them, much as Beric passed it on to LSH which would be so sad ... but fitting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 6:41:14 GMT
There are a lot of things in Dany's story that point to her matching the AA theory best, moreso than Jon Snow. Again, it doesn't make her the great hero - in fact at this point I don't think being Azor Ahai (or the symbolism of it) is really something you should want for any of your favorite characters. Everyone thinks Jon Snow should be AA or sit the Iron Throne but honestly neither of those things are good outcomes for him and probably won't be good outcomes for Dany in the long run. The guy who wrote that theory made that really clear and it's really the message I've been trying to get across to people when I debate it for years. It's just not the hero theme you think it is so don't wish it on your favorite character! I'm resolved if Daenerys ends up dying in the end for this ... or if Jon's involvement from the outside enables the success too but at a heavy price. I do think there will be a sacrifice for that success at the end - whether that's Bran, Jon, Dany or even Arya, I'm prepared for that inevitable bittersweet end. I think Dany is not going to survive the series because her death was already foreshadowed in the show when she sees Drogo and Rhaego in the HotU. I think that meant that she was going to eventually end up joining them in The Night Lands, but the fact that she left the tent also meant that her journey wasn't over yet. However she didn't see this vision in the books so I could be wrong. Edit: Dany representing R'hllor and The Night's King instead of Bran representing The Great Other isn't far fetched either and since it's pretty much confirmed that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child and the song of ice and fire that him having to find compromise between the two could really be how it ends. Whether he has sacrifice himself to save Sansa, Arya, and/or Bran remains a mystery.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 6:49:09 GMT
There are a lot of things in Dany's story that point to her matching the AA theory best, moreso than Jon Snow. Again, it doesn't make her the great hero - in fact at this point I don't think being Azor Ahai (or the symbolism of it) is really something you should want for any of your favorite characters. Everyone thinks Jon Snow should be AA or sit the Iron Throne but honestly neither of those things are good outcomes for him and probably won't be good outcomes for Dany in the long run. The guy who wrote that theory made that really clear and it's really the message I've been trying to get across to people when I debate it for years. It's just not the hero theme you think it is so don't wish it on your favorite character! I'm resolved if Daenerys ends up dying in the end for this ... or if Jon's involvement from the outside enables the success too but at a heavy price. I do think there will be a sacrifice for that success at the end - whether that's Bran, Jon, Dany or even Arya, I'm prepared for that inevitable bittersweet end. I think Dany is not going to survive the series because her death was already foreshadowed in the show when she sees Drogo and Rhaego in the HotU. I think that meant that she was going to eventually end up joining them in The Night Lands, but the fact that she left the tent also meant that her journey wasn't over yet. However she didn't see this vision in the books so I could be wrong. It's quite possible that was definitely a clue or foreshadowing of Dany's future. There were a lot of things left out of all the visions she had there in the show, but they did focus on some of the big ones so we should probably pay attention to those for sure. I don't want her to die, but again I'm resolved to it and it makes sense in the bigger picture. Same could be said of Jon for different reasons though. I know GRRM doesn't want to do the typical 'hero sacrifices self to save the world' kind of thing but I think there's definitely going to be something of that somewhere in the story at the end.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 7:16:10 GMT
It's quite possible that was definitely a clue or foreshadowing of Dany's future. There were a lot of things left out of all the visions she had there in the show, but they did focus on some of the big ones so we should probably pay attention to those for sure. I don't want her to die, but again I'm resolved to it and it makes sense in the bigger picture. Same could be said of Jon for different reasons though. I know GRRM doesn't want to do the typical 'hero sacrifices self to save the world' kind of thing but I think there's definitely going to be something of that somewhere in the story at the end. Yeah and I think since she only saw two visions in the show that both of them are relatively important in where Dany's story goes. Since the other vision was her walking into the throne room covered in the snow with the ceiling destroyed by dragons or wildfire, I think that shows that she'll make it to Westeros, but she won't claim the Iron Throne because either Cersei will try to burn KL to the ground or her dragons will eventually turn the city into a ruin. Having the room covered in snow indicates that winter will arrive in KL, which we know was hinted at in the ADWD epilogue because it started snowing. I agree with you though in thatI don't think she's the hero of the story either, but she is still important to the end game. Despite whether this will happen, I think it's possible that religion serves a bigger purpose in the end than we think because they continue to build upon and emphasize the different religions with each book and every season.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 13:06:01 GMT
Jon is AA who will be the spokesman between Ice (the WW) and Fire (Dany).
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Post by Basil on Oct 14, 2015 13:15:03 GMT
I thought @rooseisazorhai?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 13:23:59 GMT
I thought @rooseisazorhai? Nah. Rams being the AAR would make sense at least in the show. The common folk would be remember him as the great hero who saved them from the darkness, while in reality he was a rapist monster. But he isn't. But tbh I can't or won't decide how I think the endgame will go until I've read TWoW and seen seasons 6 and 7.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 13:53:05 GMT
But tbh I can't or won't decide how I think the endgame will go until I've read TWoW and seen seasons 6 and 7. You can at least take a stab at it in speculation! Jon doesn't make as much sense to me as Daenerys does even with this dual Ice and Fire bloodlines but he runs a close second. Again, I don't really think Azor Ahai reborn is a literal thing but that the prophecy is more of a future vision kind of thing that gets misinterpreted by the different cultures much the way Mel doesn't always see what she thinks she sees in the fires. Daenerys already had to (unwillingly) sacrifice her own unborn son and husband to get her flaming sword (dragons) so to speak, but I still don't think that's the literal translation of it. They are not Nissa Nissa or whatever. A lot of people try to attribute the prophecy to the exact translation and who would be killed to create Lightbringer and all that - but that's not very clever the way GRRM writes to do that IMO. Attributing this directly to our real life translations (or misinterpretations) of the second coming of Christ would be the best comparison of taking things too literally is a good guess.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 14:05:33 GMT
Davos is Lightbringer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 14:06:47 GMT
*sigh* Might as well throw Mel's name into the hat then too (at the risk of raising @konradsmith ire!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 0:04:34 GMT
ooh i don't have time now but will post something later.
I basically think a running theme in GRRM's boks is that prophecies shouldn't necessarily be trusted. Just because Dany fit some AAR criteria that doesn't mean she'll be the hero. I just think she will dominate because she has drogon and dragon fire will kill them. I think somehow, bran will be the 'ice' side hero somehow.
I'll read the theory soon @envie
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