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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 3:21:35 GMT
If you've never checked out any of ALT-Shift-X's ASOIAF theory videos on youtube, please do - they are really excellent. He's done one on Arya - and I'm so blown away (and a little sad) by his theory of Arya's ending because at the same time I don't want to believe him - his theories always make so much sense and draws together so much information from the books and the show both it's hard to deny them. Arya is my favorite character so this one got me right in the feels! If you're a Sandor Clegane fan, you'll like it too...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 6:35:30 GMT
Interesting idea. Honestly it's never even occurred to me somehow, but it seems quite likely now that i think about it. I've always felt Arya is sadly not going to survive the series. I'm not sure her living on in Nymeria would really make her death any easier for me tbh.
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Post by Enid on Jul 30, 2015 8:56:13 GMT
Bullshit. Arya is compared to Lyanna because that is the best way GRRM had to show that Lyanna was not a typical lady and that there is probably more to the story than Robert's version. People compare Sansa to Catelyn all the time, that doesn't mean she is going to be killed and then brought back as a spirit of retribution and revenge. There has been zero foreshadowing Arya will end up living in Nymeria, yes she could do it if she died, but as the ADWD prologue clearly said, her spirit would disappear into the wolf after a while, that prologue was just there to explain how Jon may survive the attack he suffers at the end of the book.
Also, why the hell would anyone pay the exorbitant fees of the FM to kill Jon? and why would the FM send Arya of all people when she is not showing any signs of losing her personality? and when the books said very clearly FM can't kill people they have met?
ETA: not everything in the books is foreshadowing, IMO one of the worst things that the long wait between books has brought is the over-analysis of the text, people re-read the books several times looking for any clues about what will happen next, every description of clothes or food is a clue, every passing comment any character makes is the base of a new theory, everything becomes foreshadowing. Nothing is just there to help with the world-building or to show the personality of the different characters or just because GRRM wanted to include it, no, everything has a double meaning, and some fans have become experts in establishing hidden connections between things that have never been connected in the actual text. This video is one of those cases, instead of considering that the comparisons between Arya and Lyanna are there to give the readers information about the personality of a deceased character that is still affecting the plot and other characters, is foreshadowing Arya will die, instead of seeing Arya's warging abilities as a common trait she has with the rest of her siblings and a constant reminder of her true identity she just won't be able to get rid off, is a clue she will die, ADWD prologue is not a needed explanation of how warging actually works and what happens to a warg if he dies because it will be relevant for Jon by the end of the book, is a clue that Arya will die and live through Nymeria, and the bittersweet ending that GRRM promised can't mean that Arya has to live a life she doesn't truly enjoy because that's her duty, it means she dies.
Sorry for the rant, but this video is the typical example of someone who developed a theory starting with the conclusion and later looked for the evidence to support it. And that pisses me off.
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Post by boojam on Jul 30, 2015 10:49:56 GMT
GRRM's Mercy chapter in Winds has an Arya who is not an 11 year old girl, she is older and more mature. I don't know if GRRM wrote this in the five-year-gap time frame but this is the most logical development. The show has so far shaded towards Maisie's real age and I hope this continues. So I no longer think of Arya as a 'kid'.
Isn't Arya already a Wolf anyway? All the Starks are metaphorically. Yeah , I think she will become the Night Wolf, but not literally! This guy's interpretation is too literal.
My guess is that Arya's destiny is something more important , that is to be a important factor in the end-game , anyway George's imagination always trumps these kinds of interpretations.
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Post by breakfest on Jul 30, 2015 11:25:07 GMT
A lot of his analysis is good, and Arya and The Hound are two of my three favourite characters so I wouldn't appreciate the video if he was getting them all wrong, he's just drawn his conclusions out of thin air a bit.
Having said that it's a nice idea that has some thematic resonance even if I really don't think it will happen. I'm not so bothered by the constant theorising about the endgame because it's what happens when people have the time and the passion to think about the story for years on end. Any theory like this is going to be doing some leaping, which is why I don't worry too much about where every character's fate is eventually going to end.
Edit: Oh and yeah the Jon bit is stupid, for sure.
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Post by Enid on Jul 30, 2015 11:35:45 GMT
GRRM's Mercy chapter in Winds has an Arya who is not an 11 year old girl, she is older and more mature. I don't know if GRRM wrote this in the five-year-gap time frame but this is the most logical development. The show has so far shaded towards Maisie's real age and I hope this continues. So I no longer think of Arya as a 'kid'. Isn't Arya already a Wolf anyway? All the Starks are metaphorically. Yeah , I think she will become the Night Wolf, but not literally! This guy's interpretation is too literal. My guess is that Arya's destiny is something more important , that is to be a important factor in the end-game , anyway George's imagination always trumps these kinds of interpretations. GRRM did say that Mercy was supposed to be the first Arya chapter after the five year gap, and it shows. Even though there are references to Arya still being young and being really close to hitting puberty, some elements (like Bobono touching her chest or the confidence with which Arya used Raff's sexual interest in her against him) fit better with an older Arya. But yeah, Arya stopped being a kid a long time ago, GRRM even said that Arya has gone through so much that she is more mature than some of the forty-year olds from the books. He also said that scrapping the five year gap wasn't going to change much his plans, and that if it meant that a 12 year old had to conquer the world, so be it. And it turns out that Arya is almost 12, if she isn't already by the time TWOW starts.
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Post by boojam on Jul 30, 2015 12:13:23 GMT
GRRM's Mercy chapter in Winds has an Arya who is not an 11 year old girl, she is older and more mature. I don't know if GRRM wrote this in the five-year-gap time frame but this is the most logical development. The show has so far shaded towards Maisie's real age and I hope this continues. So I no longer think of Arya as a 'kid'. Isn't Arya already a Wolf anyway? All the Starks are metaphorically. Yeah , I think she will become the Night Wolf, but not literally! This guy's interpretation is too literal. My guess is that Arya's destiny is something more important , that is to be a important factor in the end-game , anyway George's imagination always trumps these kinds of interpretations. He also said that scrapping the five year gap wasn't going to change much his plans, and that if it meant that a 12 year old had to conquer the world, so be it. And it turns out that Arya is almost 12, if she isn't already by the time TWOW starts. I wonder how George handles this in the rest of Winds? No reason some 'time' can pass, maybe a few years. It's done all the time in prose narrative , I am guessing GRRM has done it. It does not need be jarring. To me Maisie absolutely looks like an older teenager , even sometimes her age of 18, even if she is short and in costume. And Sophie has looked even older than 19 for years now! But then her character seems more than aged up on the show.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:40:21 GMT
IMO Maisie looks younger than she is. Like 13-15.
And I'd also argue that Arya being more mature than some adults in the books isn't a good thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:44:18 GMT
Bullshit. Arya is compared to Lyanna because that is the best way GRRM had to show that Lyanna was not a typical lady and that there is probably more to the story than Robert's version. People compare Sansa to Catelyn all the time, that doesn't mean she is going to be killed and then brought back as a spirit of retribution and revenge. There has been zero foreshadowing Arya will end up living in Nymeria, yes she could do it if she died, but as the ADWD prologue clearly said, her spirit would disappear into the wolf after a while, that prologue was just there to explain how Jon may survive the attack he suffers at the end of the book. Also, why the hell would anyone pay the exorbitant fees of the FM to kill Jon? and why would the FM send Arya of all people when she is not showing any signs of losing her personality? and when the books said very clearly FM can't kill people they have met? ETA: not everything in the books is foreshadowing, IMO one of the worst things that the long wait between books has brought is the over-analysis of the text, people re-read the books several times looking for any clues about what will happen next, every description of clothes or food is a clue, every passing comment any character makes is the base of a new theory, everything becomes foreshadowing. Nothing is just there to help with the world-building or to show the personality of the different characters or just because GRRM wanted to include it, no, everything has a double meaning, and some fans have become experts in establishing hidden connections between things that have never been connected in the actual text. This video is one of those cases, instead of considering that the comparisons between Arya and Lyanna are there to give the readers information about the personality of a deceased character that is still affecting the plot and other characters, is foreshadowing Arya will die, instead of seeing Arya's warging abilities as a common trait she has with the rest of her siblings and a constant reminder of her true identity she just won't be able to get rid off, is a clue she will die, ADWD prologue is not a needed explanation of how warging actually works and what happens to a warg if he dies because it will be relevant for Jon by the end of the book, is a clue that Arya will die and live through Nymeria, and the bittersweet ending that GRRM promised can't mean that Arya has to live a life she doesn't truly enjoy because that's her duty, it means she dies. Sorry for the rant, but this video is the typical example of someone who developed a theory starting with the conclusion and later looked for the evidence to support it. And that pisses me off. Enid - First off, I appreciate your willingness to call out what you found to be blatant reverse theorycrafting. I know it's much easier to decide what your conclusion/end will be and then go search for passages to support it. That is, afterall, how many religious people interpret the bible. They want a certain thing, or outcome, so they go search the bible for the passages that can help make it true. And I agree, that's annoying and bullshit. Second, I should state for the record that I have never really ever gotten 100% on board with any fan created theories other than maybe the most well supported one of R+L=J and even then I do keep in mind the opposing evidence and arguments against it. I do think it's probably true and look forward to finding out. I try to look at the plot theories of ASOIAF from a pragmatic viewpoint. Sometimes I appreciate some more than others, and of course there are the crackpot ones that are just too silly to take seriously. This guy has had some spot-on points though, in his other videos and even in this one throughout the first half leading up to his theory. Whether he gleans that info from all the other fans he reads theories from or they are his own doesn't matter since the value of his work is the way he presents it. I will agree that when he got to the part of the FM sending Arya to kill Jon Snow - I had strong objection. He *did* state quite clearly he did not think she would ever go through with something like that, and he did conveniently leave out reason why they would do that in the first place, unless it has something to do with the plot of the Grandmaesters some have supported which is again, another fan made plot theory. As for her actually dying and becoming a permanent part of Nymeria ... it's not impossible but we have absolutely no way to know who will die and who will survive the great 'endgame' of this story so it has to be dismissed as only an idea, a possible outcome. It is entirely possible Arya could die. It's possible any of the main characters from the beginning of the story dies and something I know we are all bracing ourselves for as we must realize by now it's not going to be a happy ending entirely. Bittersweet was the word the author himself used. If Arya were to die for whatever reason, and warg her spirit into Nymeria, it would be as described by Varamyr in the ADWD prologue. This guy simply pulled exact wording from the book and attributed it to another character. Many believe the Varamyr prologue was a foreshadowing for Jon Snow. This guy just moved it to another character and decided to become a psychoanalyst and decide Arya is permanently broken and unfixable for her future. I disagree with that too. I'm glad you called it out. I enjoy seeing others reactions. That's exactly why I tried not to give specific examples in my post because I didn't want anyone to think as the OP I either agreed or disagreed with this theory. It DID make me sad, but it didn't 100% convince me. I will be a stubborn fence-sitter for all fan theories until I have the book proof in my own skeptical little hands to read.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 18:02:52 GMT
Bullshit. Arya is compared to Lyanna because that is the best way GRRM had to show that Lyanna was not a typical lady and that there is probably more to the story than Robert's version. People compare Sansa to Catelyn all the time, that doesn't mean she is going to be killed and then brought back as a spirit of retribution and revenge. There has been zero foreshadowing Arya will end up living in Nymeria, yes she could do it if she died, but as the ADWD prologue clearly said, her spirit would disappear into the wolf after a while, that prologue was just there to explain how Jon may survive the attack he suffers at the end of the book. Also, why the hell would anyone pay the exorbitant fees of the FM to kill Jon? and why would the FM send Arya of all people when she is not showing any signs of losing her personality? and when the books said very clearly FM can't kill people they have met? ETA: not everything in the books is foreshadowing, IMO one of the worst things that the long wait between books has brought is the over-analysis of the text, people re-read the books several times looking for any clues about what will happen next, every description of clothes or food is a clue, every passing comment any character makes is the base of a new theory, everything becomes foreshadowing. Nothing is just there to help with the world-building or to show the personality of the different characters or just because GRRM wanted to include it, no, everything has a double meaning, and some fans have become experts in establishing hidden connections between things that have never been connected in the actual text. This video is one of those cases, instead of considering that the comparisons between Arya and Lyanna are there to give the readers information about the personality of a deceased character that is still affecting the plot and other characters, is foreshadowing Arya will die, instead of seeing Arya's warging abilities as a common trait she has with the rest of her siblings and a constant reminder of her true identity she just won't be able to get rid off, is a clue she will die, ADWD prologue is not a needed explanation of how warging actually works and what happens to a warg if he dies because it will be relevant for Jon by the end of the book, is a clue that Arya will die and live through Nymeria, and the bittersweet ending that GRRM promised can't mean that Arya has to live a life she doesn't truly enjoy because that's her duty, it means she dies. Sorry for the rant, but this video is the typical example of someone who developed a theory starting with the conclusion and later looked for the evidence to support it. And that pisses me off. Enid - First off, I appreciate your willingness to call out what you found to be blatant reverse theorycrafting. I know it's much easier to decide what your conclusion/end will be and then go search for passages to support it. That is, afterall, how many religious people interpret the bible. They want a certain thing, or outcome, so they go search the bible for the passages that can help make it true. And I agree, that's annoying and bullshit. Second, I should state for the record that I have never really ever gotten 100% on board with any fan created theories other than maybe the most well supported one of R+L=J and even then I do keep in mind the opposing evidence and arguments against it. I do think it's probably true and look forward to finding out. I try to look at the plot theories of ASOIAF from a pragmatic viewpoint. Sometimes I appreciate some more than others, and of course there are the crackpot ones that are just too silly to take seriously. This guy has had some spot-on points though, in his other videos and even in this one throughout the first half leading up to his theory. Whether he gleans that info from all the other fans he reads theories from or they are his own doesn't matter since the value of his work is the way he presents it. I will agree that when he got to the part of the FM sending Arya to kill Jon Snow - I had strong objection. He *did* state quite clearly he did not think she would ever go through with something like that, and he did conveniently leave out reason why they would do that in the first place, unless it has something to do with the plot of the Grandmaesters some have supported which is again, another fan made plot theory. As for her actually dying and becoming a permanent part of Nymeria ... it's not impossible but we have absolutely no way to know who will die and who will survive the great 'endgame' of this story so it has to be dismissed as only an idea, a possible outcome. It is entirely possible Arya could die. It's possible any of the main characters from the beginning of the story dies and something I know we are all bracing ourselves for as we must realize by now it's not going to be a happy ending entirely. Bittersweet was the word the author himself used. If Arya were to die for whatever reason, and warg her spirit into Nymeria, it would be as described by Varamyr in the ADWD prologue. This guy simply pulled exact wording from the book and attributed it to another character. Many believe the Varamyr prologue was a foreshadowing for Jon Snow. This guy just moved it to another character and decided to become a psychoanalyst and decide Arya is permanently broken and unfixable for her future. I disagree with that too. I'm glad you called it out. I enjoy seeing others reactions. That's exactly why I tried not to give specific examples in my post because I didn't want anyone to think as the OP I either agreed or disagreed with this theory. It DID make me sad, but it didn't 100% convince me. I will be a stubborn fence-sitter for all fan theories until I have the book proof in my own skeptical little hands to read. Give that woman +10.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 18:33:23 GMT
I don't have the time to read everyone's responses in this thread just now, but while I don't agree with some of the in-between parts of this guy's video (Arya being sent to kill Jon? lolno), I do think his theory of how Arya's story will end is kind of awesome? I think it's arguably one of the best possible endings for Arya. If she lives, what will she do? No one who is so horribly traumatised and used to killing at 11 years old is likely to have any kind of normal life. I would seriously struggle to swallow that. But Arya dying and living on in Nymeria would be perfect for her. Perfect.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 18:39:16 GMT
I don't have the time to read everyone's responses in this thread just now, but while I don't agree with some of the in-between parts of this guy's video (Arya being sent to kill Jon? lolno), I do think his theory of how Arya's story will end is kind of awesome? I think it's arguably one of the best possible endings for Arya. If she lives, what will she do? No one who is so horribly traumatised and used to killing at 11 years old is likely to have any kind of normal life. I would seriously struggle to swallow that. But Arya dying and living on in Nymeria would be perfect for her. Perfect. Righto on the Jon assassination thing. I think he may have thrown that in there just to be controversial as it's pretty left-field kind of stuff that makes me wonder if he isn't referring to another fan-made theory about who the Others are and what the endgame is supposed to be. I only skim most of that. Some of the Others theories are compelling but still just theories. Again, he did admit he didn't think that was going to happen anyways - Arya wouldn't do it. She loves Jon too much and she doesn't divest herself of her Arya identity. That sort of disproves his own claim that she has no identity towards the end. She still very much does and always will. Just because she's 'broken' by all the violence and killing and hatred, doesn't mean she's a gibbering insane person with no identity. She can be focused and purposeful too. That's the outcome I hope for. The bittersweet ending with Nymeria - yeah - that can all happen after she's had her vengeance as Arya if that's how it's going to end ... definitely better for her to end up a direwolf leading her pack!
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Post by Enid on Jul 30, 2015 22:09:27 GMT
Sorry I was so aggressive in my previous post, but I'm just sick of it. 99% of the theories about Arya are about her death, and I'm really tired of it, specially because people always give the same exact motive: that she is too damaged and won't be able to be happy ever again so she is better dead (guess then all the people from the Riverlands who have also suffered the worst part of the war should die too, because Arya is far from being the only one who sees all the horror from the war or has to kill to survive).
I don't see Arya living in Nymeria as a good ending. This guy is wrong when he says that would give Arya everything she wants: she doesn't just want a pack, she wants her original pack, her family, that is why she wants to go to Jon. The books mention that the wolves Nymeria leads are "cousins" and not her siblings. She tried to go from KL to WF just to reunite with her family, she walked day after day, barefooted and starved through a war torn country just to see her mother and brother again, and this guy really thinks that she would just say "nah is not worth the trouble" if she found out that Bran and Rickon are alive? she would do everything in her power to reach them, she wouldn't care that Bran is inside a tree north of the Wall or that Rickon is in Skagos.
Arya wanted freedom to choose her own destiny, that is why she asked Ned if she could be lord of a holdfast. The fact that she likes to explore and run and ride doesn't mean she would be happy as a wolf. And the most important thing for me, Arya wouldn't live through Nymeria, she would linger like some kind of ghost for a few months and then she would disappear.
And I wouldn't say that her relationship with Sandor is one of friendship. Sandor didn't stay with her after the RW just because he is a super nice guy, he wanted to ransom her to Lysa, and even though Arya got to know more about Sandor and wasn't able to kill him, she doesn't feel any sympathy for him either. Sandor is not her best friend.
As I said, I disagree with a big part of what the video says because it's clear the author decided that the mentions about wolves in Arya's chapters means she will literally become one (although we have seen that Westerosi families tend to identify strongly with their sigils) and, to prove his theory, he used a bunch of references from the text, some of which are actually connected to Arya (like her resemblance to Lyanna) and others that so far have nothing to do with her (ADWD prologue).
Is possible that Arya will die before the books end, I know that, but is also possible that she would survive the series, yet almost everyone thinks she is dead already, and that is really annoying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 22:57:18 GMT
I do try to see the opposing sides of any argument for or against a character's demise in the mad theorycrafting that takes place and is particularly crazy right now while we wait for either TWOW or Season 6 to drop. This is definitely the worst time ever to be inciting riots because you think a certain character is going to die.
I don't know if you've watched any of Alt-Shif-X's other theory videos, but he has really good ones for Jon Snow's resurrection and who is Azor Ahai, etc. They are not all necessarily the best/top theories, but they do draw in a lot of compelling evidence.
I think this is the first one I've watched that made me upset/sad though - again because I'm such a huge Arya fan. I've decided to post it here because after a re-watch I wasn't as sure of it as I was the first time. I'm glad you and others have pointed out the flaws in the theory. I had doubts too and of course the emotional side of me wants to deny anything bad will happen to any more of the Stark kids - enough is enough so far isn't it? As someone else said... after awhile it moves away from shocking plot twists into the realm of torture porn when all you've done is continually shit on the Starks for 5 books solid. It has to turn around or end up being the world's most depressing 20 years of writing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 9:38:20 GMT
I really haven't put a great deal of thought into what Arya's role in the endgame might be but I do think he's right in that she'll be sent to assassinate someone important at some point. And I also think he's right to use Mel's "we'll meet again" from ep. 306 as evidence in this case. That wasn't just some throwaway line. Who she would be sent to kill up north, I dunno though. His reasoning for it being Jon seemed kind of silly to me. I could see it having to do with the IBOB though like he inferred. For the sake of maintaining the moral ambiguity of her storyline, I hope it's someone sympathetic she has to kill. As for whether she lives or dies, I have no preference. Not for any character really. So long as they live or die well, there's no single character of GrrM's who I'd really resent dying too much.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 20:48:25 GMT
I always personally thought arya would die just because I thought the only two Starks left alive at the end would be Rickon and Bran. I said it in another thread but I would rather see a character have a good death that leaves fans somewhat satisfied than dredging on uncertainly. I hope George (or let's face it, D&D) doesn't leave any ambiguities towards certain characters, especially considering how long we have waited for the ending. After all, if Arya dies in a scene with a massive impact it would be far better than her simply becoming a faceless man, or dissapearing into legend after some great victory (kill Cersei?). While I do think her being sent to kill Jon would be a cool plot point I doubt it would ever happen. Why would someone send a faceless man to kill Jon? Who could? Certainly not Cersei. Euron? Varys? Varys targeting Jon would certainly be interesting but thats another story entirely.
I think ultimately Arya will die after fulfilling a very important role in the story. As for warging into Nymeria, it would be great to reunite them, and I think her going back to Westeros and running across Nym would be a little too picturesque. A reunion in death could work. I seem to recall some quotes from Arya when she wargs Nymeria, something about how it feels right or that its comfortable or something along those lines. There are certainly some lines that may be seen as foreshadowing. George has threw out lines about snow falling over the characters graves that really makes me think that very few of the main cast will survive the series, the top 5 especially.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 21:01:03 GMT
Is possible that Arya will die before the books end, I know that, but is also possible that she would survive the series, yet almost everyone thinks she is dead already, and that is really annoying. I had to spend a long time as a Stannis fan hearing how he's going to die. At this point Arya is alive and we are all simply speculating. Arya seems to be surrounded by a lot of death and people have had far too long in George's writing period to speculate about this stuff so literally everything is picked apart and dissected to the gritties detail. Until we actually know what is going on and the series ends, we have to at least try and debate the possible for everyone. And Arya is one of the main characters. A lot of people expect her to die, but a lot of people also expect Jon to die, Tyrion to die, Dany to die... Etc. George has never wrote happy endings. Everything has a double edged value to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 22:40:12 GMT
Is possible that Arya will die before the books end, I know that, but is also possible that she would survive the series, yet almost everyone thinks she is dead already, and that is really annoying. I had to spend a long time as a Stannis fan hearing how he's going to die. At this point Arya is alive and we are all simply speculating. Arya seems to be surrounded by a lot of death and people have had far too long in George's writing period to speculate about this stuff so literally everything is picked apart and dissected to the gritties detail. Until we actually know what is going on and the series ends, we have to at least try and debate the possible for everyone. And Arya is one of the main characters. A lot of people expect her to die, but a lot of people also expect Jon to die, Tyrion to die, Dany to die... Etc. George has never wrote happy endings. Everything has a double edged value to it. You made a really good point about being a Stannis fan and having to listen to everyone predict his death a hundred times over. In fact I'd say being a serious Stannis fan has to be pretty torturous right now because the show killed him off but he's still alive in the books. Of course most of us dismiss that to mean he's going to die soon in the books. That kinda sucks to know so many people have already dismissed the character you love. Thanks for the perspective and hopefully Admin reads this to know some of us are sympathizing!
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