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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 22:00:50 GMT
Come on guys, we need more activity on the book subforums. So here it goes!
The Battle of Ice/Battle of Winterfell was majorly underwhelming on the show. Half of Stannis's army abandoned him and his army got crushed by Bolton cavalry. Stannis lost. Not the week long spectacle what the Pink Letter promises us in ADWD. Will it be the same in the books?
The prereleased chapter revealed that Stannis is setting a trap for the coming Frey/Ramsay/Manderly charge. Theon, fArya and Asha are in Stannis's captivity. The lake will have something to do with the battle. Probably will involve a few drowning Freys. We also know that Manderly might switch sides during battle. Stannis arrested the Karstarks, who tried to do the same to him what the Manderly's will likely do to the Boltons. Stab them in the back during the fight.
Strength:
Stannis:
~ 5 400 men according to the wiki
- Majority of them are clansmen (~3 000)
- Southern knights, 1300, most horses are dead
- 1 200 other loyalists
- Mors Umber and his "green boys", requested to be placed on the other side of the battle so he doesn't have to fight against Hother. Strength approximately 400.
- 450 Karstarks, currently under arrest
Roose:
~ 7 750
- Made out of Boltons, Karstarks, Freys (2 500) , Manderly's (300) and a few others, whose numbers are unknown.
- Hother Umber wanted the same thing from Roose. 400 men as well, but his host is made of old men.
Let's open the discussion!
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Post by kingeomer on Jun 18, 2015 22:31:18 GMT
I am not really good at battle speculation, but I would be disappointed if the Battle of Ice/Winterfell is as underwhelming in the book as it is in the show.
I'll say Team Stannis wins due to the Manderly's stabbing the Bolton's in the back. Once they are down, I can't see the Freys and remaining Karstarks standing to fight. It won't be an easy battle and I think each side will take huge hits. I am really hoping the Pink Letter was false and Ramsey was posturing and it turns out Ramsey and Roose are dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 9:00:09 GMT
I'm guessing Stannis loses and Winterfell is going to be liberated in the end by Sansa and the Knights of the Vale.
I doubt the battle is very exciting. The only POVs there are Asha and Theon, so I doubt we'll get a particularly hands on view.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 9:30:31 GMT
I'm guessing Stannis loses and Winterfell is going to be liberated in the end by Sansa and the Knights of the Vale. I doubt the battle is very exciting. The only POVs there are Asha and Theon, so I doubt we'll get a particularly hands on view. Could be. I think that Stannis will win the battle outside of Winterfell vs. Freys/Manderlys and some Boltons but eventually he will lose. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 11:07:19 GMT
Well, the battle of Winterfell is different than the battle at the frozen lake. It seems likely to me that he'll defeats the Frey host but beyond that, I don't see him faring too well in the apparently seven days of battle that continues after that.
People, particularly on ASOIAF reddit, have gotten much too optimistic about Stan's prospects for victory against the Boltons. I say this every time but his "what battles has he won that I should fear him" line about Ramsay is not a line we're supposed to nod along to and go "yay Stannis!" about. It's pride before the fall. It directly parallels what (IIRC) Mace says about Jon Connington in the ADWD epilogue almost word-for-word. Mace, like Stannis, is very wrong to underestimate his opponent. Both will pay dearly for it in TWOW.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 5:23:31 GMT
im not sure if stannis wins but somehow i am certain eventually the boltons are going to be removed from winterfell and lose. also we have no reason to trust this 'seven days of battle'. Also Tormund may lead the wildlings there for Jon?
i like to think the boltons are taken over from the inside, Manderley and Lady Dustin seem to be on the Stark side to me, whilst Stannis defeats most of the frey men. The freys are pieces of shit and doubt they'd fair well against the mountain clans.
Plus i think Manderley may have more men then he is letting on. So manderley is going to switch sides. I wonder if the umbers will also realise they need to work together to bring down the boltons. The karstarks are treacherous whores but if their leader is killed then i think the army will flee or join stannis.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:21:42 GMT
There's a crisis at the wall and I'm sure that Jon & Tormund won't make it there in time. They might be in the second battle of Winterfell and then eventually wipe out the Boltons. I think that Stannis will win the battle outside of the castle, but fail to take Winterfell, this is because the show surely can't change the outcome of a huge battle?
The Umbers have separated their forces, to make sure that their house will survive and the Greatjon won't be killed. The moment the Greatjon is free, Hother will change sides.
Manderly has one of the biggest armies in the North, but he didn't take most of his forces with him.. he might have sent them to Stannis.
I'm quite scared that we won't get to see the battle. Since the only POVs there are captives..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:24:45 GMT
I'm quite scared that we won't get to see the battle. Since the only POVs there are captives.. I think the battle will be relayed to us second-hand like most of Robb's battles. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:29:02 GMT
I'm quite scared that we won't get to see the battle. Since the only POVs there are captives.. I think the battle will be relayed to us second-hand like most of Robb's battles. That's better than nothing, I guess. We need details! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 10:49:30 GMT
I think the battle will be relayed to us second-hand like most of Robb's battles. That's better than nothing, I guess. We need details! I'm sure we'll get some but still, this won't be like the Battle of Fire or Blackwater where it's an immersive thing with multiple chapters and POVs from every vantage point. I'm pretty sure we'll just hear, "Stan did well for a few days against the first batch of enemies...and then he didn't do so well against the next batch..." |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 21, 2015 11:10:07 GMT
That's better than nothing, I guess. We need details! I'm sure we'll get some but still, this won't be like the Battle of Fire or Blackwater where it's an immersive thing with multiple chapters and POVs from every vantage point. I'm pretty sure we'll just hear, "Stan did well for a few days against the first batch of enemies...and then he didn't do so well against the next batch..." Which is a shame, because it's the event I'm most excited for in TWOW  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 11:17:16 GMT
I'm sure we'll get some but still, this won't be like the Battle of Fire or Blackwater where it's an immersive thing with multiple chapters and POVs from every vantage point. I'm pretty sure we'll just hear, "Stan did well for a few days against the first batch of enemies...and then he didn't do so well against the next batch..." Which is a shame, because it's the event I'm most excited for in TWOW The events in TWOW that I'm most excited for are the ones we'll get at the end of the book. The complete unknowns. The Battle of Ice isn't really an anticipated TWOW event for me anymore; it's more of a this-should've-been-in-ADWD moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 11:19:09 GMT
I'm quite scared that we won't get to see the battle. Since the only POVs there are captives.. I think the battle will be relayed to us second-hand like most of Robb's battles. Unless George adds another PoV, I am guessing this is what will happen as well. We are only going to get second hand info about the battle. This may be why the show writers condensed it and the only real battle scene we saw was the two armies heading towards one another from Sansa's point of view in the tower. It's vague and doesn't change anything the book may add detail to later. Whatever that was they added after the battle with Brienne killing Stannis and Ramsay finishing off some guy may be fabrication on the show's part. It felt a little off to me and not just because Brienne magically appears and kills Stannis. I'm guessing that's how they decided to wrap up Stannis this season on the show because whatever happens in WoW drags on for awhile but ultimately ends with Stannis dying anyways. I have no idea how or where but word of him dying on the battlefield will likely be the only thing we hear of it from others in later chapters. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 11:26:53 GMT
Unless George adds another PoV, I am guessing this is what will happen as well. We are only going to get second hand info about the battle. This may be why the show writers condensed it and the only real battle scene we saw was the two armies heading towards one another from Sansa's point of view in the tower. It's vague and doesn't change anything the book may add detail to later. Whatever that was they added after the battle with Brienne killing Stannis and Ramsay finishing off some guy may be fabrication on the show's part. It felt a little off to me and not just because Brienne magically appears and kills Stannis. I'm guessing that's how they decided to wrap up Stannis this season on the show because whatever happens in WoW drags on for awhile but ultimately ends with Stannis dying anyways. I have no idea how or where but word of him dying on the battlefield will likely be the only thing we hear of it from others in later chapters. Yeah, I think Stan will die away from any POVs in TWOW (which as it did in the show will lead to many "Stan's alive, man!" truthers pressing the issue for years to come) and he probably won't be killed by anyone we know or anyone significant. That's why they decided to give that job to Bri this season, I think, just so they could give her something non-Riverlands to do (because they're saving that all for s6) and to consolidate screentime in the North.
It worked for me personally but I guess some people found it to be too on-the-nose? I dunno. All I know is that WF section of ep. 510 and what Sophie and Stephen and Alfie brought to it is maybe my favourite ten minute stretch of the show EVER.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 11:37:57 GMT
If the BoI amounts to nothing more than a summary after-the-fact in TWOW then GRRM needs to fire his editor who should have told him "Who the fuck is Quentyn and why does he exist? Get rid of him and keep BoI in ADWD to close out the Northern arc". That's not even counting the novel's worth of Tyrion, Jon and Dany chapters which could also have been left on the cutting room floor. Lawd.
But yeah, I never really knew what to expect from the BoI in TWOW until someone pointed out something that I hadn't really thought of before, and that's that no POVs will likely be in the thick of the battle. He is said that he isn't introducing any new ones (thank god), so we're not going to suddenly get a Stannis or Ramsay POV.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 11:48:11 GMT
And if the pink letter was sent by Ramsay and was telling the truth, then... the BoI really should have been in ADWD. On the upside, the pink letter implies Roose is dead, also, since Ramsay signs it as "Trueborn Lord of Winterfell", so maybe Stan manages to take Roose down with him. Or maybe Asha kills him  |
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Post by Nezzer on Jun 21, 2015 12:01:23 GMT
And if the pink letter was sent by Ramsay and was telling the truth, then... the BoI really should have been in ADWD. On the upside, the pink letter implies Roose is dead, also, since Ramsay signs it as "Trueborn Lord of Winterfell", so maybe Stan manages to take Roose down with him. Or maybe Asha kills him No, Roose gave Winterfell to Ramsay when he married Jeyne, I believe. If I remember correctly, Roose was never lord of both the Dreadfort and Winterfell at the same time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 12:05:35 GMT
And if the pink letter was sent by Ramsay and was telling the truth, then... the BoI really should have been in ADWD. On the upside, the pink letter implies Roose is dead, also, since Ramsay signs it as "Trueborn Lord of Winterfell", so maybe Stan manages to take Roose down with him. Or maybe Asha kills him No, Roose gave Winterfell to Ramsay when he married Jeyne, I believe. If I remember correctly, Roose was never lord of both the Dreadfort and Winterfell at the same time. Ooh, ok. I should really read ADWD again |
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Post by day dreamer on Jul 8, 2015 13:56:31 GMT
I still think Stannis wins, but the only thing that makes me nervous is Theon and Asha are our only POV characters, so they'd have to be in the thick of it (which Theon won't be) unless someone provides very detailed explanations of what happened.
I think the Manderly forces turn on the Boltons and start killing Boltons/Freys, and that will help Stannis win. I just really hope it isn't as underwhelming as the show. I really want Stannis to win this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2015 9:01:47 GMT
The result of the battle might be quite different in the books. I still think that Stannis has a chance. Seems like the show will handle the Northern conspiracy separately in S6. Stannis's men won't desert him in the books, that's for sure.
What about the Pink Letter? I'm quite convinced that Ramsay didn't actually send it. Perhaps it was Melisandre trying to provoke Jon to go and help Stannis? Or maybe it was Stannis?
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